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So I was reading through Into the Storm last night. I knew Ork and Kroot had been made available as PCs in Rogue Trader with Into the Storm and thought "Oh yeah, they'll come up with a good reason to be able to include them in your campaign" but I found it offered very little reasoning.

Focusing on Orks, rather than Kroot, why would a Rogue Trader Captain go to the great lengths to have an Ork made a Sanctioned Xeno, which would risk their reputation and integrity when almost the entire Imperium is dedicated to wiping out xeno on sight? Sure, Orks can do stuff humans can't but Rogue Traders have pots and pots of thrones. They can buy planets, purchase armies, own their own heavy cruisers, have to deal with planetary governors and the inquisition.

So in a serious, gritty game of Rogue Trader, as opposed to a lighter game, why would a Lord Captain have an Ork or two on board his ship? I keep trying to find reasons and can't come up with a thing.

Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated.

He has them for pets.


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or a gladitorial type thing or some kind of uber body guard.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:He has them for pets.


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or a gladitorial type thing or some kind of uber body guard.

Mainly as really good muscle especially the nob sized orks. People will take your offer seriously when theres an 10 ft monster staring them down.

Yes, but you're a Lord Captain granted a Warrant of Trade by the High Lords of Terra. You are keeping around that which all Imperial Citizens are bound by duty to exterminate.

Trust me - I'd considered that.

People will take a RT Captain's offer seriously, because he/she's an RT. Him and what army? That army he bought last week.

well as a RT captain he doesn't have to let the high lord know about everything as they will have dealings in black market stuff not just legit business. So maybe he has Orks as gladiator slaves that help win money on certian worlds.

To have a sanctioned xeno is a long and involved process that draws lots of attention from the inquisition and administratum. So the dodgy rogue trader captains, like the privateers, try to avoid that kind of attention. So they're not gonna do it. The ones who would take the risk of the interviews, paperwork and checks, why would they risk or want having xeno on board?

How does having xeno slaves help you with your profit factor and on what worlds? When you're dealing with the kind of money rogue traders have and have access to, a couple gladiator orks, which isn't in the character classes available to ork player characters nor even suggested as a possibility, offers virtually nothing, like offering a hundred dollars to a millionaire for a venture that's high risk.

welp you've shot my idea full of holes. I'm out of ideas. I haven't actually read any of the rogue trader books so I was tryin to make something up that might help you.

Yup, totally appreciate it, don't get me wrong. It just doesn't fit in the 40k/Imperium universe and I can't see how it does and really looking for answers.

no worries I didn't take offense. and your right it doesn't really fit unless you want to ignore a lot of things and just say that they are there because they are.

Unfortunately in a serious game of RT with experienced 40k players, you can't just ignore large chunks of the Imperium because even if you're on the outer reaches of Imperial space or exploring non-Imperial space, you still have up to 100,000 crew who are Imperial citizens.

It's not like FF to put in something that doesn't work, or at least without some kind of explanatory patch, so there has to be something I'm missing.

1. Space is big. Really big. Makes it easy to hide in.
2. The Imperium is mostly full of hot air, in that they say "Don't do this", but probably know only a fraction of what really goes on, so getting away with things like this are easier than we are led to believe.
3. There can be whole civilisations that live and die before the Administratum even knows they exist, and not just alien civilisations either. In other words, their eyes cannot be everywhere all the time. They do miss things, and frequently.
4. Not all Rogue Traders follow the law. Some are quite shifty, and the entire concept of 'Cold Trade' goes into that.

Having an Ork sitting beside you at trade negotiations can be quite useful, as can be having one as a bodyguard if your captain was to get ambushed at a port by some thugs.

Having a "sanctioned xeno" does mean the administratum know about it.

Even Lord Captains have to go back to Imperial space at some stage. Fairly often to repair their ship if they're doing things right. If you just "hide the orks" during that time, those ork player characters get to miss out on large chunks of roleplay which defeats the purpose of sitting down to play.

The shifty rogue traders, as I've already mentioned, wouldn't want the attention they have to go through to get a xeno sanctioned.

I'm not sure how having an Ork sitting next to you helps trade negotiations. I can see how it can have your party gunned down or refused access.

As for bodyguards, same as above, and that's why Lord Captains have a retinue that usually includes an arch militant and a ship full of armsmen.

So what's the point of this thread then?

You start with talking about how it doesn't make sense to have xeno, and you've replied to every explanation given to with "Nu-uh! That's wrong."

If you're not going to listen to people, or even engage your imagination as to why having a huge-as-feth Ork sitting next to you whilst trying to get the upper hand in negotiations might be useful, then there's nothing the rest of us can say to convince you.

Cos I want an answer that makes sense and works in the 40k universe. Even the book doesnt give you that kind of an example. None of the 40k rpgers I speak to can think of an example that works, either.

All I can say is if you think that having an Ork next to you might actually help trade negotiations, you've never played 40k rpg.

You still haven't answered how having a huge "I'm going to crush your head if you don't agree with my employer" ork sitting next to you in negotiations will help your negotiations, other than being blown out of the sky immediately following or reported to the authorities.

Cos I want an answer that makes sense and works in the 40k universe.

You've been given several. Pick one.

You still haven't answered how having a huge "I'm going to crush your head if you don't agree with my employer" ork sitting next to you in negotiations will help your negotiations, other than being blown out of the sky immediately following or reported to the authorities.

I gave you an answer, you just ignored it.

SPACE IS BIG

Not everyone has access to these 'authorities'. Not all humans exist within the bubble of the Imperium and even those that do often have no contact with the Imperium at large because, once again:

SPACE IS BIG

The laws of the Imperium are not galaxy spanning. They are in name, sure, but in practice one world differs from the next as much as you and I differ in physicality, personality and so on.

Yes, walking onto Terra with an Ork in tow is likely to see you taking a short stroll to the nearest immolation room, but in the Koronus expanse - where Rogue Trader is set - it is a frontier. You know how frontier's work, right? How what is and what should be are often quite far apart. Survival is often the most important things, and if Cut-Off-And-Dying-Colony-841 needs supplies, and are being greedy about it, then Mr. Feth-Off Huge Ork used to intimidate their leaders might be the way to go.

Orks are an infectious disease. Once yoofs start causing problems in the dark recesses of his ship, it's going to become quickly apparent that his orkish enforcer is more trouble than it's worth.

So, the Ork PC is a one shot pony that sits there and says nothing but growls and only acts when a fight breaks out?

I'm sorry, that's not roleplaying.

What frontier cut off and dying colony has the capacity to fix a rogue trader's ship when it gets banged up? Footfall isn't in Imperial space but you still sure as hell can't just wonder in with orks flanking you and get away with it. Port Wanda? Absolutely not, that is Imperial space. You have to go back sometime. You can't stay outside Imperial space forever.

The people on your ship aren't all under your control. You have navigators, astropaths and mechanicum. They're loyal members of the imperium. ...well, maybe not the mechicum but he/she/it won't like the ork tek. Playing true, they arrange the unfortunate demise of said xeno scum and there is nothing, nothing even the rogue trader can do about it, without brining down their ire and risking losing his contract. Ship can't fly without navigators, tech priests, cant contact anyone without an astropath - oh, and don't forget any missionaries that are on board. You'd be very, very hard pressed to find an imperial vessel of any sort without a missionary or three.

The reason I'm debating your answers is because I don't believe they work.

I've already covered all those possibilities and answered them to same way to myself as not being viable.

Rogue Trader isn't about walking in and demanding what you want, there is politics and intrigue as well. Your reason for going to such great lengths, as described in the book which it doesn't sound like you've read, to have a xeno sanctioned, you would need an utterly watertight reason for doing it, or risk your reputation, the reputation of your ship, sanction by various arms on the Imperium, or even the nullifying of your warrant (and yes, that can be done, though I reckon it's unlikely, more likely to top you as a heretic and traitor to humanity and let the warrant revert back to your house).

Rogue Traders (well, most, anyways) are notoriously independent and many enjoy ostentatious displays of wealth/status.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that one would want an Ork crewman as A) a "feth you, I do what I want" to societal norms or B) as an oddity/diversion/show piece. Consider, as a potentially touchy alternative, African slaves in Britain. Most were used as household workers- often times, this was done as much for the labor as for the oddity/rarity/exotic nature of a slave of color.
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More in-universe logic, though, would point out that interactions with Xenos are not always violent. The 4E (3E?) IG codex's Last Chancers' section mentions an Eldar ambassador getting his vehicle stolen-- implying that there's at least 1 Imperial planet with some sort of embassy or reason for a Xeno race to have a civilian transport on-surface. Your reasoning that "XENOS BAD!!!1" may be the Imperium's official party line, but the reality 'on the ground' is sometimes much less cut and dried.

CadianCommander wrote:So, the Ork PC is a one shot pony that sits there and says nothing but growls and only acts when a fight breaks out?

No. Not what I said at all.

CadianCommander wrote:I'm sorry, that's not roleplaying.

So now we're discussing role-playing? I thought we were discussing logical reasons to have Sanctioned Xenos within the 40K universe (specifically the setting created for Rogue Trader, that of the Koronus expanse).

Stop moving the goal posts.


How about this:

The Imperium is a wonderfully hypocritical institution where everything is heresy until they say it isn't. This is why all psykers are bad... except the ones that are sanctioned and are in positions of authority and work for the Space Marines and carry all our trans-galactic messages. All mutants are also bad... except the ones that fly our ships. All xenos are also bad... except when we need them, at which point we make them 'sanctioned'.

The Imperium is contradictory and are very, very much into the "say one thing, do another". Rogue Traders take this to the extreme, where their autonomous life-style gives them the ability to do basically whatever they want. Some stick to the letter of the law far more closely, whereas others use their warrants as an excuse to do whatever they want.

Enter the 'sanctioned xeno', a convenient way of having aliens and making it look legit and law-abiding.

CadianCommander wrote:So, the Ork PC is a one shot pony that sits there and says nothing but growls and only acts when a fight breaks out?

I'm sorry, that's not roleplaying.

Uh, who are you to decide that?

Regardless of the role someone wants to play, it's still roleplaying.

This thread might be of interest to you-- it's more concerned with Radical Inquisitors and Sanctioned Xenos, but there's some interesting points about who might seek Xenos underlings and why:

http://www.the-conclave.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=446.5;wap2

@HBMC: Ah-ha - sorry mate, I thought I made it clear it was in regards to Rogue Trader RPG in my first post - my bad.

I know RTs have a lot, a lot of leeway, but after reading through Into The Storm, I still can't find a way, a reason, for a Lord Captain to include them on his crew in any viable way. The risk is so great, the effort so much, and the pay off so small.

And even Lord Captain's can't escape the consequences of their actions. Any typically good (and my good I mean evil because they're all evil) GM lets you know that real quick!

@Nerviant: huh-what? Umm...that wasn't useful.

@kartofelkopf: thanks, having a look now though seems to be more to do with radical inquisitors than an RT crew but thanks.

I was going to say that as well, the whole 'there is no one way to role-play' (hey that even rhymes!), but figured it wasn't worth the argument.

CadianCommander wrote:The risk is so great, the effort so much, and the pay off so small.

And even Lord Captain's can't escape the consequences of their actions. Any typically good (and my good I mean evil because they're all evil) GM lets you know that real quick!

Well, is the risk really that great? Who does a RT interact with that can actually challenge/punish his choice of crew?

As for the latter point.... while making a Lord Captain face some consequences for hiring on an Ork could be an entertaining (and even recurring) sidestory, I have a feeling that a PC playing one in your campaign might feel a bit of... hostility... towards his character choice. Not really something a Player looks for in a campaign. (apologies if that's not the case-- it just sounds as if you're dead-set against the very concept)

I should clarify then - most the guys I play with are more interested in story and character development than dungeon crawl point and shoot style games when they sit down for an RPG. Even our less than intelligent Arch Militants tend to have good characterisation, stories and development.

What I'm looking for here I guess is a way you can include orks on a Rogue Trader crew, cos Into The Storm says you can, but without the rest of the crew gunning them down the moment they see them, and not risk the reputation of the Lord Captain. Something watertight that would stand up.


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A Rogue Trader Captain interacts with many people that can challenge and punish him for his choice of crew.

Even some of the pre-written adventures involve inquisitors and you can bet your last throne they'd punish you for that. If the Ordo Xeno think you're consorting with aliens, and not just in the "we'll turn a blind eye towards your trading and discovering about them, because we may be able to use that information later when we return to colonise and obliterate them" kinda way but actually having them on board, they will take exception. You can't just hide the xeno for the duration, because inquistors often work under cover.

Aside from that, Lord Captains have to deal with the administratum from time to time, and the Navis Nobilitae, the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Ecclesiarchy and Adeptus Telapathica.

Sure, a dodgy privateer on the outer reaches outside Imperial space can get away with it, but it wouldn't be a sanctioned xeno.

But a non-dodgy Lord Captain and/or a sanctioned xeno? Not so much.

Hmm...

Maybe at the request of a Radical Inquisitor? Barring intimate familiarity with the inner politics/philosophy of the Inquisition, a PC/crew faced with a 'request' from a Radical might not know any better. Getting accidentally drawn into Inquisitorial politics could be a direction to move in.

You might even (if you/your crew is okay with the implications) set the stage for a JustLikeUs character development for the other crew working with the Ork.

The long and short of it, though, is an Ork mercenary on an Imperial ship -is- a rarity. If your group doesn't feel like that's a good/'normal' state of affairs... well, they're good Imperial Citizens, and there's nothing wrong with that. If one of your players really wants to roleplay an Ork, though... definitely let him! Some of our best roleplaying in Deathwatch has been between a Black Templar PC and an Ultramarine Libby. We're much more make-a-tactical-assessment-and-then-kick-down-the-door players as opposed to actors/intrigue players, but the Hate --> Grudging Respect --> quasi-tolerance arc was fun to see played out. Just let the Ork PC know in advance that character conflict with the other PCs is a possibility-- and make sure everyone's willing/able to play out that kind of internal strife.

Oh, tell me about it. Our Deathwatch game has two Space Wolves and a <gulp> filthy stinking Dark Angel techmarine. Just to add insult to injury, he's easy to get along with. Nothing worse than discovering your Blood Claw likes kicking back with a Dark Angel Coggy.



But back to the point - iiiiinteresting. That had never, ever occured to me. So why would the radical want orks about?

CadianCommander wrote:
A Rogue Trader Captain interacts with many people that can challenge and punish him for his choice of crew.

Even some of the pre-written adventures involve inquisitors and you can bet your last throne they'd punish you for that.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inquisition#Philosophy

Not all Inquisitors are as hard-lined on the Xenos issue as all that. "Shades of Grey" is the best way to think about the Inquisition... and, unless the Inquisitor had reason to suspect the RT of other wrong-doing, or was truly Puritanical, he might not give a feth one way or the other.



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I've not read about some of those minor factions directly from the fiction, but Xenos Hybris appears to think the Imperium's best chance for stability/success in the future lies in working with Xenos.

An Ordo Xenos Polypsykana might be interested in the ork "gestalt psyker" (although a single Ork is hardly a significant enough presence to channel/generate any significant powers). Maybe as a liaison to Ork mercenaries that an Inquisitor is studying?

Maybe an Istvaanite seeking to promote strife within the Imperium by having the RT take the Ork on. (Read "Elucidium," from 'What Price Victory'. Greta short story, and definitely puts the inner conflicts of the -I- in a stark light)

Even a Puritan might seek to out another Puritan Inquistiorial rival by having the Ork brought on and allowing him to act as a lightning rod for drawing out the investigating Puritan (for whatever reason works best for the campaign-- simple rivalry, concerns of overzealousness, corruption, etc...) Perhaps an Amalthian trying to get at what he sees as an over-zealous/fractious Monodominant.

Ah, I thought you meant the radical inquisitor had the sanctioned xeno orks. Even if he was more liberal (and you're right, they can be), he (or she) would still need a reason to have orks in tow.

Ooh (now reading your next post). Polypsykana could be interesting.

Now, it would mean that the Orks aren't part of the RT crew but if the Polypsykana Inquisitor has directly requested (and by request I mean order) the Lord Captain to transport them from A to B (and A to B can be "until I come get them") then they're still on the ship, able to interact, under an inquisitor's protection, and even though technically Lord Captains and Inquisitors are equal ranks, few Rogue Traders will push that issue so won't get put out the air lock or used as target practise by the armsmen.

I just have to point out that every time a captain with an ork on board visits an imperial planet, he risks being that little snowflake that causes an avalanche known as the waghh.
Don't forget that 40k orks are more than orks. If they die, they explode in a cloud of spores that become more orks.
It's not like you just have an aggressive green ogryn onboard.