Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So my question is about non-rulebook spell generation. Basically I have no idea what the correct answer is so please let me know.

Anyways the situation is as follows. I have 2 mages who are taking high magic. It does not have a signature spell however the armybook allows you to switch any rolled spell for the #1 spell.

Say I have a lvl 1 and lvl 2 both with high magic. I roll the lvl 1 first and roll a 1. Then I roll the lvl 2 and roll a 1,2.

So can I reroll the second 1, as I have already rolled it? Do I have to reroll the 1? Can I choose to take a second "1" spell?

Now apply the same logic however with the lvl 1 I rolled a 3. I switch it for spell #1. Then I roll a 1,2 with the lvl 2 mage. So now the same questions, can/do I have to re-roll.

RAW I think I can at least choose to swap any spell for the sig spell. So I think I can at least have 2 mages with the lvl 1 spell. But after that I am not sure. Anyways any advice would be great. Thanks!

You dont reroll, you pick whenever you have a duplicate spell. You can choose therefore to take the number 1 spell as you can always choose the number 1 spell.

As I was replying, I noticed that you want the "1" spell. It looked like something tricky was being tryed on the 2nd one. Sometimes someone will try the 2 wizard roll. if one is rolled "1" switch the other to "1" and they say they can't have the same spell twice and will pick the spell they wanted.

The only spell that all the wizards can dupicate, (other then being a Lore Master) is the Signature spell. In this case the spell the book says you can swap to.
The BRB says (pg 490) the only exception to the no duplicate spells is 1) Lore Master 2) "If the army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question."

tiekwando wrote:Say I have a lvl 1 and lvl 2 both with high magic. I roll the lvl 1 first and roll a 1.

This one you can pick any spell. The FAQ removed the book reroll. If you want the #"1" spelll, you pick a another spell and then switch the spell back to "1". See above on why.

tiekwando wrote:
Now apply the same logic however with the lvl 1 I rolled a 3. I switch it for spell #1. Then I roll a 1,2 with the lvl 2 mage. So now the same questions, can/do I have to re-roll.

On this one, you switched a rolled spell of "3" for "1" and then rolled a 1 and 2. You will not get to pick the another spell for having a duplicate spell because you can have the "signatue" spell more than once.

tiekwando wrote:
RAW I think I can at least choose to swap any spell for the sig spell. So I think I can at least have 2 mages with the lvl 1 spell. .

Yep.. anyone oponents question it, show them BRB pg 490

nosferatu1001 wrote:You dont reroll, you pick whenever you have a duplicate spell. You can choose therefore to take the number 1 spell as you can always choose the number 1 spell.

I don't think that's right.
Here's a more specific example.
You have a level 1, and a level 2 high elf wizard, both choose high magic.

The first wizard rolls a 1, giving him shield of saphery. High magic says you can swap any spell for the #1, so you are stuck with this roll.
The level 2 wizard generates 2nd, and rolls a 2 and a 1.
He gets #2 (curse of arrow attraction), and #1 (Shield of Saphery).

Can the level 2 swap his Shield of Saphery?
No.

As per page 490, ordinarily, each spell can only be known once. One of the exceptions is "If the Army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question." Since a high elf wizard can exchange for Saphery, you are allowed multiple Saphery.

Now below that statement is:
"Otherwise, if you roll a spell twice you must normally replace the duplicate spell with another of your choice front he same lore."
The "Otherwise" means of the above two exceptions did not apply. One of the two did apply, so you cannot swap the spell.



You only Pick a spell, when you get a duplicate that is produced that is not:
1) Fixed by the models rules (like Treemen) or bought specifically as part of army selection (such as necromancers)
2) A spell you can swap to. Which is the #1 spell in most of the old lores, high magic, dark marks, along with both flavors of tzeench, slaanesh, and nurgle.


-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You dont reroll, you pick whenever you have a duplicate spell. You can choose therefore to take the number 1 spell as you can always choose the number 1 spell.

I don't think that's right.
Here's a more specific example.
You have a level 1, and a level 2 high elf wizard, both choose high magic.

The first wizard rolls a 1, giving him shield of saphery. High magic says you can swap any spell for the #1, so you are stuck with this roll.
The level 2 wizard generates 2nd, and rolls a 2 and a 1.
He gets #2 (curse of arrow attraction), and #1 (Shield of Saphery).

Can the level 2 swap his Shield of Saphery?
No.

I beleve thats incorrect. if lvl 1 rolled a 1 and lvl 2 rolled a 2 and 1. The lvl 2 changes the #1 spell for something else since he rolled for a 1 twice and if he wants a #1 spell he can then change it back to #1. What he can not do is, if lvl 1 rolled a 4 then switched it for #1 spell, and the lvl 2 rolled a 2 and 1. He stuck with spell 1 since he didnt roll 1 twice.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
As per page 490, ordinarily, each spell can only be known once. One of the exceptions is "If the Army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question." Since a high elf wizard can exchange for Saphery, you are allowed multiple Saphery.

True, but you are missing he part of the exceptions the above it. "Ordinarily, each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as:" Both spells #1 was randomlly generated. So you must swap the spell, BUT you can swap it back to #1 (signature spell).

Artee wrote:

True, but you are missing he part of the exceptions the above it. "Ordinarily, each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as:" Both spells #1 was randomlly generated. So you must swap the spell, BUT you can swap it back to #1 (signature spell).

No, I'm not missing that part.
The "Such As:" part uses a colon to show that the previous statement will be followed by a list.
That list has 2 bullet points, the 2nd of which states that,
"If the army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question."

Notice that it says can, not that the model did exchange another spell for the spell in question.
Can you exchange spells for Shield of Saphery? Yes.
That makes it one of the exceptions listed under the "Such As" statement.

The formatting which puts the 2nd bullet point at the top of the next column is less than ideal, but doesn't change the grammar or function of the rule.


Mathematics is my strong point, not grammar. Any grammar guys want to weigh in on this?


-Matt

Hawaii - that didnt really contradict mine, i just answered two different questons at once.

If you both roll spell #1, the second wizard *cannot* choose another spell as you are allowed duplicates of spell #1 (non BRB lores)

If you both roll spell 2, the second one to roll would get to choose - however not if the first wizard changes to spell 1, as then spell 2 hasnt been "used up" for selection purposes.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Hawaii - that didnt really contradict mine, i just answered two different questons at once.

If you both roll spell #1, the second wizard *cannot* choose another spell as you are allowed duplicates of spell #1 (non BRB lores)

If you both roll spell 2, the second one to roll would get to choose - however not if the first wizard changes to spell 1, as then spell 2 hasnt been "used up" for selection purposes.

Thanks for the clarity. That's how I thought it worked.
In the old lores, you can basically get stuck with a bunch of #1 spells, should you have a lot of wizards who roll 1's.

-Matt

Yep, presumably why they have the 0th spell now - you can fill up the other 6 spells, while swapping for 0 if you really want.

The bullet list is for the spells that are not randomally generated. You should be treating any rolling of dupicate 1's just like the other numbers. But oh well if you want to skip that line and limit yourself, go for it.

we arent limiting ourselves, we're folloing the rules.

A duplicate of 1 is NOT A duplicate the rules care about.

""If the army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question." - the army book does, therefroe it is not a duplicate. You have no rules argument.

Correct, If the spell was not randomaly generated. Since they was not in this case.

??

Rolling a dice == randomly generated.
Randomly generating the number 1 spell, then having another wizard randomly generating the number 1 spell, leaves 2 wizards both with the number 1 spell. You have no choice in the matter.

nosferatu1001 wrote:??

Rolling a dice == randomly generated.
Randomly generating the number 1 spell, then having another wizard randomly generating the number 1 spell, leaves 2 wizards both with the number 1 spell. You have no choice in the matter.

Right, both spell 1 was random generated so by that one can pick. If one was not random and other wizard did random then they have both.

No, you cannot pick. You have both generated a spell that CAN be duplicated and it is therefore an exception to the "if duplicate spell rolled you may choose"

Exceptions are if a spell is not generated randomly. Boths ones are randomly generated. Therefore doesn't fall in that bullet.