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I'm wondering if genetic implantation by genestealers, and therefore the good old genestealer hybrids, magus, patriarch, and the like are still considered as part of the 40k universe, or if they are one of the things that have been discarded? If they are still in, where do you think they stand with the tyranid hive mind? Would they have some degree of autonomy or do you think they would run around screaming 'FEED!' and stuffing organic matter in their mouths?

No, it's still in there. Why would you think it's retconned?

Just because GW doesn't mention it anymore doesn't mean it has been "retconned". Retcon is Retroactive Continuity, or changing an event/character in a way that conflicts with previous statements about that event/character.

Like what Matt Ward did with that Ultramarines/Necron battle. Went from "Ultramarines get groinstomped by the scary new mystery monster" to "Ultramarines save the Black Templars from getting groinstomped by the scary new mystery monster, and hold off said SNMM long enough to evacuate all the civillians from a planet before blowing it up killing the Necrons and totally winning, yay."

That's a retcon.

Not talking about something is not a retcon. It's just pretending it doesn't exist, in the hopes everyone will forget it. Like Imperial Beastmen. To my knowledge, there has not been an IG codex that says "IG never use, and have never used Beastmen." They just don't talk about them. Technically, they might still exist with some regiments pulled from more backwater planets. There's just no rules to support them, so you can't run Imperial Beastmen AS Imperial Beastmen.

Genestealer hybrids are kinda the same thing. No rules for them, and nobody talks about them, but GW has not said "There are no genestealer hybrids and no Cult Magi."

But nothing out there stops you from modelling up some genestealer hybrids and running them as Imperial (traitor) Guard. Purestrain Genestealers a Rough Riders, maybe?

squidhills wrote:Just because GW doesn't mention it anymore doesn't mean it has been "retconned". Retcon is Retroactive Continuity, or changing an event/character in a way that conflicts with previous statements about that event/character.

Like what Matt Ward did with that Ultramarines/Necron battle. Went from "Ultramarines get groinstomped by the scary new mystery monster" to "Ultramarines save the Black Templars from getting groinstomped by the scary new mystery monster, and hold off said SNMM long enough to evacuate all the civillians from a planet before blowing it up killing the Necrons and totally winning, yay."

That's a retcon.

That was actually done before Ward's codex. It was in Pete Haines' "Traits" codex.

Not talking about something is not a retcon. It's just pretending it doesn't exist, in the hopes everyone will forget it. Like Imperial Beastmen. To my knowledge, there has not been an IG codex that says "IG never use, and have never used Beastmen." They just don't talk about them. Technically, they might still exist with some regiments pulled from more backwater planets. There's just no rules to support them, so you can't run Imperial Beastmen AS Imperial Beastmen.

Well, there's mention of them as abhuman mutations that usually are corrupted by the Ruinous Powers.

They're not really considered "Sanctioned" abhumans for Imperial use, unless you're sending them screaming at the enemy so the brave boys in cardboard can survive.

The one bit of fluff I remember about Genestealers relationship to the hive mind is that they are independent of it, and repelled by it just as the hive mind is attracted to them. So Genestealers will head out and establish cults on planets, the hive mind will be attracted to them and show up to do brunch, and the Genestealers will be driven to move off planet ahead of the hive, thus starting the cycle anew.

Genestealer cults are still very much a part of the fluff. they simply lost rules support and no longer have a codex.


Stealer Cults still pop up and cause big problems. they just arn't on the table top.

Kanluwen wrote:
That was actually done before Ward's codex. It was in Pete Haines' "Traits" codex.

Really? Are you sure about that? I'm asking because it's been a while since I read the Traits codex, and a lot of people are attributing that retcon to Ward. If you're right, then... well... I guess I need to stop hating on Ward for that one. Still got lots of other stuff to hate on him for, though.

Haven't read all new books for the Deathwatch RPG, but there is lots of info on Tyranids and genestealers in there.

That book also tries to retcon the Deathwatch into being an independent Chapter allied with the Ordo Xenos (whilst simultaneously owning a fleet of cloaked planet-destroying Killships who are completely automated and don't need a Navigator) and Astartes in general into having better equipment than even the Inquisition...

Still, I've seen nothing from GW themselves to suggest that 'stealer hybrids don't exist anymore. That'd be shocking! Hybrids were cool. D:

daveNYC wrote:The one bit of fluff I remember about Genestealers relationship to the hive mind is that they are independent of it, and repelled by it just as the hive mind is attracted to them. So Genestealers will head out and establish cults on planets, the hive mind will be attracted to them and show up to do brunch, and the Genestealers will be driven to move off planet ahead of the hive, thus starting the cycle anew.

I haven't read that before, but I like it, it fits in well with the fluff. The reason I asked is I played RT and 2nd edition, then had a rather extended break from 40k before coming back to it last year, and I can't see anything related to stealer hybrids any more.They used to be among my favourite minis back then.

A few rare genestealer cults know what they are worshipping and calling down, but they are the exception. As I understand it, they are going through their little cultist activities from a position of sheer instinct. Their human minds will rationalize their anarchic actions with whatever motivations are necessary to let them keep going. A rare few are even convinced that they are worshipping Chaos.

Lynata wrote:That book also tries to retcon the Deathwatch into being an independent Chapter allied with the Ordo Xenos (whilst simultaneously owning a fleet of cloaked planet-destroying Killships who are completely automated and don't need a Navigator) and Astartes in general into having better equipment than even the Inquisition...

Killships are the Inquisition's property, and the Deathwatch have always been considered a 'Chapter allied with the Ordo Xenos' for all intents and purposes

The only difference now is that the Deathwatch is talked about as a permanent standing force with Brothers permanently seconded to the Deathwatch rather than volunteering, serving their time, and returning to the Chapter.

squidhills wrote:Really? Are you sure about that? I'm asking because it's been a while since I read the Traits codex, and a lot of people are attributing that retcon to Ward. If you're right, then... well... I guess I need to stop hating on Ward for that one.

Fairly certain about it, yes since Pete Haines and Graham McNeill have Marneus Calgar planning a counter-attack that stomps the Necrons and allows for evac.

Still got lots of other stuff to hate on him for, though.

And much of it was brought about before he was actually at the company.

Pruney ninja strikes again...

Kanluwen wrote:Killships are the Inquisition's property, and the Deathwatch have always been considered a 'Chapter allied with the Ordo Xenos' for all intents and purposes

Nope. It clearly says "Deathwatch Kill-Ship" in the RPG. And GW has always been fairly clear about the Deathwatch being subjected to the Ordo Xenos in the same way as the Grey Knights are part of the Ordo Malleus. It's why they have an inquisitorial emblem on their armour as opposed to, say, the SoB who do not.

"It is clear that wherever possible it is best if the Inquisition can deal with a threat using its own resources, avoiding the dangerous entanglements that may result from involving other agencies and military forces. It is for this reason that the Inquisition maintains its own fighting formations, foremost amongst them being the Kill-Teams of the Deathwatch Space marines and the daemon-hunting Grey Knights Space Marines."
- GW Thorian Sourcebook

[edit] Added a quote for your convenience.

"Of the Deathwatch Space Marines" suggests that they are, in fact, considered separate.

The Red Hunters Astartes Chapter has an Inquisitorial sigil in their Chapter Heraldry. Does that mean they're part of the Inquisition?

The Chambers Militant have pretty definitively been called "separate but equal" for awhile. Inquisitors listen to the Deathwatch and Grey Knights as attentively as they do other Inquisitors, but the Deathwatch and Grey Knights don't require Inquisitors to be active.

Kanluwen wrote:"Of the Deathwatch Space Marines" suggests that they are, in fact, considered separate.

Wait, are you saying that Deathwatch Marine Kill-Teams are "the Inquisition's own resources", but the Deathwatch as an organization isn't?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Kanluwen wrote:The Red Hunters Astartes Chapter has an Inquisitorial sigil in their Chapter Heraldry. Does that mean they're part of the Inquisition?

Maybe? I'd have to do more research on them, so can't comment on this right away.

Kanluwen wrote:The Chambers Militant have pretty definitively been called "separate but equal" for awhile.

Thing is that the SoB are a Chamber Militant as well, and they lack this inquisitorial seal - suggesting that there's a difference between them and the GK/DW. Which would be that the latter are "the Inquisition's own fighting formations", as GW has said. At least that's the obvious connection that I see between these two facts here.

Isn't Deathwatch just ad hoc kill-teams pointed at bad aliens by the Inquisition.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Isn't Deathwatch just ad hoc kill-teams pointed at bad aliens by the Inquisition.

It's a bit more organized - GW described them as the Ordo Xenos' Chamber Militant, and they had at least sufficient structure to incorporate Captains. Some sort of oath made a couple dozen Marine Chapters send their best guys to serve in these units, and they were stationed in inquisitorial bases, ready to be dispatched when an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor sensed trouble with aliens.

The RPG basically retconned them into being an independent entity only tapping the Ordo Xenos for information, otherwise keeping its own giant bases and fleets of starships (including cloaked unmanned planet-killers) etc.

This was also pointed out in a thread over at the FFG forums (not by me ). Lots of DW players cheered at this change because they disliked being pushed around by measly Inquisitors who were just humans.

That is a retcon. So Deathwatch is now an actual chapter of about 1,000 marines?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That is a retcon. So Deathwatch is now an actual chapter of about 1,000 marines?

Given how many bases they have all across the galaxy, the books suggest a number of well over 1.000.

The Jericho Reach alone has about 200 of these guys.

Marines still only serve "terms" in the DW, though! All that FFG did was cancel out the Inquisition's influence on this organization.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That is a retcon. So Deathwatch is now an actual chapter of about 1,000 marines?

I forget how big it is, or if it even says in the main sourcebook, but capping them at 1k marines would be hard to rationalize (even for 40k). It's not a true chapter though. It's members are almost all seconded from other chapters, but there are a few 'lifers'. One of the watch captains was not-so-subtly hinted to be a

Why did you put that as a spoiler? It's not like the Deathwatch rulebook has a plot, lol.

Genestealer cults are all over the Black Library books. Cain fights them at least once.

Lynata wrote:That book also tries to retcon the Deathwatch into being an independent Chapter allied with the Ordo Xenos (whilst simultaneously owning a fleet of cloaked planet-destroying Killships who are completely automated and don't need a Navigator) and Astartes in general into having better equipment than even the Inquisition...

lulwhut?! No way, I thought those RPG guys took this stuff seriously?

Omegus wrote:lulwhut?! No way, I thought those RPG guys took this stuff seriously?

Generally, they do. I'm not sure if this was a mistake or a deliberate design decision (as I said, the Marine fans liked this). It's just as with Black Library novels (even Abnett makes mistakes, whereas Goto chose to ignore some things).

The RPG is quite cool and I can only recommend it, both as a source of inspiration as well as because it's really fun to play. It just introduces some very weird ideas in areas that may not be considered important or common knowledge. My personal pet peeve is that their Space Marines are invulnerable(!) to SoB as those apparently use only "civilian" weapons.

Yes the genestealer cults still exist, if you read the Ciaphas Cain series you'll see them popping up now and again.

Just like the ad mech forces there in the background and get mentioned in the novels but have no rules for table top.

Kanluwen wrote:And much of it was brought about before he was actually at the company.

Codex: Grey Knights was brought about before he joined the company?!

squidhills wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And much of it was brought about before he was actually at the company.

Codex: Grey Knights was brought about before he joined the company?!

Much of what was in Codex: Grey Knights was already laid down in Codex: Daemonhunters, which was before he was at the company.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Why did you put that as a spoiler? It's not like the Deathwatch rulebook has a plot, lol.

That particular bit of fluff did have a (short) plot, and since I personally enjoy reading the fluff elements of the various 40k RPG books, I put that puppy in spoiler land. Costs me two mouse clicks, potentially saves some random dude some enjoyment.

Lynata wrote:Generally, they do. I'm not sure if this was a mistake or a deliberate design decision (as I said, the Marine fans liked this).

I suspect that this was deliberate. It has the advantage of increasing the separation between the Deathwatch and Dark Heresy games, and it gives the players some sort of advancement path that doesn't always leave them under the thumb of the Ordo Xenos.

They do kinda have a plot. I always appreciate spoiler tags.