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So I havent been able to find anything concrete, but Marines returning from Deathwatch leave their left arm silver right?

Everything ive found said they repaint their armour when they arrive, but nothing when they leave, any help?

IIRC they have a DW shoulderpad and a silver arm when they return, though the last time someone asked i think it ended up more as a thing of choice rather than anything else.

Alright, thanks!

I would assume they repaint it the original color. They don't keep the Deathwatch heraldry forever.

I could potentially see vets keeping the silver arm, but definitively not the shoulder pad. That's an Ordo Xenos badge and would be akin to impersonating the Inquisition (aside from giving the weird impression that the Marine is still part of the Ordo's own fighting formations rather than the Chapter).

Never seen any image showing a Marine with a silver arm alongside others either, though, but that doesn't have to mean anything.

Well, the thing is, I just noticed I have what looks like a Deathwatch Shoulder pad. I have no idea where I got it, and only noticed it was DW about a day ago. I was thinking of sticking on my Sternguard with a heavy flamer, claiming he used it to burn many a Nid with it. But im unsure on how to paint it.

I realise it is ultimately up to me, but i'd still like to know what the fluff is

Lynata wrote:I could potentially see vets keeping the silver arm, but definitively not the shoulder pad. That's an Ordo Xenos badge and would be akin to impersonating the Inquisition (aside from giving the weird impression that the Marine is still part of the Ordo's own fighting formations rather than the Chapter).

Never seen any image showing a Marine with a silver arm alongside others either, though, but that doesn't have to mean anything.

Actually, the shoulderpad is supposed to be the one thing they can keep beyond their wargear. It's not an "Ordo Xenos badge", but rather it's a mark of distinction for having served within the Deathwatch.

The Ordo Xenos has no badge of its own, they have the generic Inquisitorial sigil. The three lined 'I' is done like that to represent the branches of the Inquisition.

The only 'badge' that Inquisitors carry is their rosette. The rosette has no single appearance, being anything from a holographic projection that shows the Inquisitor's profile and authority to a simple wallet with the sigil of the Inquisition within.


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Klogger wrote:Well, the thing is, I just noticed I have what looks like a Deathwatch Shoulder pad. I have no idea where I got it, and only noticed it was DW about a day ago. I was thinking of sticking on my Sternguard with a heavy flamer, claiming he used it to burn many a Nid with it. But im unsure on how to paint it.

I realise it is ultimately up to me, but i'd still like to know what the fluff is

It was likely on the Command Squad sprue. There's one in both the Terminator box and the Command Squad box.

The Deathwatch Shoulderpad would be painted pure silver for the rim and the raised '=I='. You can paint the flat surface of the shoulderpad black or Chapter colors, as you desire.

The wargear of returning veterans from the Deathwatch is repainted back to Chapter livery before they come back.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, the shoulderpad is supposed to be the one thing they can keep beyond their wargear.

Really? Where do they say that?

Kanluwen wrote:The Ordo Xenos has no badge of its own, they have the generic Inquisitorial sigil.

Ah, the skull-thing is just Deathwatch then, alright - still, it contains the Inquisition's insignia, which is why I'm a bit reluctant to believe that someone not affiliated with it would be able to wear it. Just seems to "blur the lines" a bit.

Ex-Deathwatch members are affiliated with the Inquisition...

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, the shoulderpad is supposed to be the one thing they can keep beyond their wargear.

Really? Where do they say that?

They never have. It's just always been that way, whenever you see a Deathwatch Veteran he has the shoulderpad.

Kanluwen wrote:The Ordo Xenos has no badge of its own, they have the generic Inquisitorial sigil.

Ah, the skull-thing is just Deathwatch then, alright - still, it contains the Inquisition's insignia, which is why I'm a bit reluctant to believe that someone not affiliated with it would be able to wear it. Just seems to "blur the lines" a bit.

Red Hunters.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Hunters

And it's not like FW created them out of the blue for Vraks. They've been around for a long time.

The Red Hunters are part of the Inquisition's own fighting formations, hence they bear their seal. You can't really compare that to some random Chapter.

@Deathwatch Veterans: Do you mean miniatures for DW Kill-Teams, or do they get rules in one of the normal Chapter Codices?

Lynata wrote:The Red Hunters are part of the Inquisition's own fighting formations, hence they bear their seal. You can't really compare that to some random Chapter.

Except the Red Hunters aren't.

The Red Hunters are a Space Marine Chapter with ties to the Inquisition as shown by the Inquisition symbol on their armour. Their uniform is red, with a white skull with a black Inquisition symbol on its head as a Chapter badge. The entire Chapter has been known to serve under an Inquisitor Lord on occasion. What little is known about the Red Hunters suggests that they may have been founded immediately following the Horus Heresy, and were intended to hunt down and eliminate the Traitor Legions. To accomplish this task they are assisted by the forces of the Inquisition and offer their services to the Inquisitors in return.

There's more detail about them in Badab, and it suggests that it's the Red Hunters choosing to do it. They're not ordered to, they have no ties outside of some sworn oaths.

@Deathwatch Veterans: Do you mean miniatures for DW Kill-Teams, or do they get rules in one of the normal Chapter Codices?

Look on the Terminator sprue. Look on the sprue for a veteran sergeant. They have an Inquisitorial shoulderpad in there, which when the sets debuted was said by GW to be something used to 'spice up your squads and allow you to make a returned Deathwatch veteran'.

And yeah, Deathwatch miniatures did actually have rules in Index Astartes. Issue #305(US) of White Dwarf has them.

oh whoops, I used that Termy shoulder pad for my Chaplain, didnt realize it was a DW shoulderpad, not the end of the world however, just needs a little repainting,

Kanluwen wrote:Except the Red Hunters aren't.

"So strong was the link between this Chapter and the three great Inquisitorial orders that rumour was that they had been founded at the request of the Inquisitorial representative on Terra, and that there was a secret pact between the Inquisition and the Chapter for mutual support. Uniquely, the Chapter even bore the Inquisitorial 'I' on its badge. Although still a Chapter of Space Marines that looked to the Codex Astartes for organisation and spiritual guidance, the Chapter made their squads available for rapid responses to Inquisitorial calls for assistance."
- Imperial Armour vol. VII

Sometimes (well, often) it really pays off looking at the exact source rather than just the abridged interpretations posted on the player-maintained Lexicanum. The articles about SoB and Marines in particular are often a mess and give false impressions, tainted by personal preferences, missing GW canon and Black Library stuff taken too serious even in cases of obvious contradictions. Lexicanum is awesome for providing a starting point for one's research - an index, if you will - but don't make the mistake to trust it entirely.

Kanluwen wrote:They have an Inquisitorial shoulderpad in there, which when the sets debuted was said by GW to be something used to 'spice up your squads and allow you to make a returned Deathwatch veteran'.

Okay, if GW really specifically said that, I'll accept it.

Kanluwen wrote:And yeah, Deathwatch miniatures did actually have rules in Index Astartes. Issue #305(US) of White Dwarf has them.

Were that the Killteam-Rules? In that case I know 'em (better than FFG apparently ) - I was referring more to DW Vets in Codex Chapters, sort of like the Tyrannic War Veterans etc. Anyways, question solved!

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Except the Red Hunters aren't.

"So strong was the link between this Chapter and the three great Inquisitorial orders that rumour was that they had been founded at the request of the Inquisitorial representative on Terra, and that there was a secret pact between the Inquisition and the Chapter for mutual support. Uniquely, the Chapter even bore the Inquisitorial 'I' on its badge. Although still a Chapter of Space Marines that looked to the Codex Astartes for organisation and spiritual guidance, the Chapter made their squads available for rapid responses to Inquisitorial calls for assistance."
- Imperial Armour vol. VII

Sometimes (well, often) it really pays off looking at the exact source rather than just the abridged interpretations posted on the player-maintained Lexicanum. The articles about SoB and Marines in particular are often a mess and give false impressions, tainted by personal preferences, missing GW canon and Black Library stuff taken too serious even in cases of obvious contradictions. Lexicanum is awesome for providing a starting point for one's research - an index, if you will - but don't make the mistake to trust it entirely.

"Rumor", being the keyword there Lynata. There is no definitive reason as to why the 'I' is on the badge.
It's funny though, because as normal you're quoting without the full context.

Imperial Armour Volume 7, Siege of Vraks Part 3, page 8 wrote:The Grey Knights were not the only Space Marine force Inquisitor Rex turned to--potent though they would be.
The Red Hunters Chapter also had a long history of putting themselves at the service of the Inquisition. So strong was the link between this Chapter and the three great Inquisitorial orders that rumour was that they had been founded at the request of the Inquisitorial representative on Terra, and that there was a secret pact between the Inquisition and the Chapter for mutual support. Uniquely, the Chapter even bore the Inquisitorial 'I' on its badge. Although still a Chapter of Space Marines that looked to the Codex Astartes for organisation and spiritual guidance, the Chapter made their squads available for rapid responses to Inquisitorial calls for assistance. The Inquisitors fighting on the frontline on Vraks would also have an honor guard of Red Hunters squads to call upon.

That changes the context of what you're saying quite a bit. It's one thing to say that Lexicanum is only good "as an index"(which it is fine for, and it's another thing to leave off an important thing whilst placing your faith in what amounts to an in-universe "rumor".

Kanluwen wrote:They have an Inquisitorial shoulderpad in there, which when the sets debuted was said by GW to be something used to 'spice up your squads and allow you to make a returned Deathwatch veteran'.

Okay, if GW really specifically said that, I'll accept it.

Kanluwen wrote:And yeah, Deathwatch miniatures did actually have rules in Index Astartes. Issue #305(US) of White Dwarf has them.

Were that the Killteam-Rules? In that case I know 'em (better than FFG apparently ) - I was referring more to DW Vets in Codex Chapters, sort of like the Tyrannic War Veterans etc. Anyways, question solved!

They probably did at one point or another, but I'm not digging out SM codices and hunting for a one line reference that probably just did nothing.

Kanluwen wrote:"Rumor", being the keyword there Lynata.

I'd call it an obvious hint. Whilst you may argue it's not unambiguous, it's far more than you saying "no" without anything to back it up.

More important than the "why" is that they readily place themselves under the Inquisition's command in the first place, though.

Kanluwen wrote:It's funny though, because as normal you're quoting without the full context.

I'm quoting what is necessary. Do you realize that your citation only strengthens what I'm saying?

Let me point it out for you:

"The Grey Knights were not the only Space Marine force Inquisitor Rex turned to--potent though they would be. The Red Hunters Chapter also had a long history of putting themselves at the service of the Inquisition." <--- Comparing Red Hunters to Grey Knights

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"Rumor", being the keyword there Lynata.

I'd call it an obvious hint. Whilst you may argue it's not unambiguous, it's far more than you saying "no" without anything to back it up.

More important than the "why" is that they readily place themselves under the Inquisition's command in the first place, though.

Many Astartes Chapters place themselves under the Inquisition's command.

Kanluwen wrote:It's funny though, because as normal you're quoting without the full context.

I'm quoting what is necessary. Do you realize that your citation only strengthens what I'm saying?

Let me point it out for you:

"The Grey Knights were not the only Space Marine force Inquisitor Rex turned to--potent though they would be. The Red Hunters Chapter also had a long history of putting themselves at the service of the Inquisition." <--- Comparing Red Hunters to Grey Knights

So the Dark Angels and Red Scorpions are Inquisitorial Chapters as well?

Because Rex asked the Red Hunters for aid.

I've used several DW shoulderpads on my veteran squads - A SM should be proud of serving the hallowed DW, so I see no problem with it.

Kanluwen wrote:Many Astartes Chapters place themselves under the Inquisition's command.

Permanently? Which ones, aside from the Grey Knights and the Red Hunters?
Or the Deathwatch, if you want to count them as a Chapter.

Kanluwen wrote:So the Dark Angels and Red Scorpions are Inquisitorial Chapters as well?

Nope. They don't have an inquisitorial seal on their armour.

Joking aside, the book also goes out of its way to explain how much more difficult it was to request the aid of these two Chapters. It outright states that Rex did not expect a fast answer and there was no guarantee they'd help him.

Kanluwen wrote:Because Rex asked the Red Hunters for aid.

Uh, the book doesn't say that. He asked the Red Scorpions and the Dark Angels, but turned to the Grey Knights and the Red Hunters.

And a "call for assistance" sounds much more commanding than a request, too.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, the shoulderpad is supposed to be the one thing they can keep beyond their wargear.

Really? Where do they say that?

It the reason why you can get a plastic deathwatch shoulderpad a part of the command sprue, marines that return keep the shoulder badge as a mark of the honour they have earned.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Except the Red Hunters aren't.

"So strong was the link between this Chapter and the three great Inquisitorial orders that rumour was that they had been founded at the request of the Inquisitorial representative on Terra, and that there was a secret pact between the Inquisition and the Chapter for mutual support. Uniquely, the Chapter even bore the Inquisitorial 'I' on its badge. Although still a Chapter of Space Marines that looked to the Codex Astartes for organisation and spiritual guidance, the Chapter made their squads available for rapid responses to Inquisitorial calls for assistance."
- Imperial Armour vol. VII

And you haven't actually proved your point, you have just given a source that clearly says that the red hunters are not part of the inquisition

BluntmanDC wrote:And you haven't actually proved your point, you have just given a source that clearly says that the red hunters are not part of the inquisition

Mhm? The book compares the Red Hunters to the Grey Knights - I consider the Grey Knights to be part of the Inquisition's fighting formations.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Many Astartes Chapters place themselves under the Inquisition's command.

Permanently? Which ones, aside from the Grey Knights and the Red Hunters?
Or the Deathwatch, if you want to count them as a Chapter.

The Red Hunters aren't under permanent Inquisitorial secondment. That's why it talks about "when the Inquisition sequesters them".

Kanluwen wrote:So the Dark Angels and Red Scorpions are Inquisitorial Chapters as well?

Nope. They don't have an inquisitorial seal on their armour.

Joking aside, the book also goes out of its way to explain how much more difficult it was to request the aid of these two Chapters. It outright states that Rex did not expect a fast answer and there was no guarantee they'd help him.

The Dark Angels and Red Scorpions were "so much more difficult to request the aid of" because they were both involved in campaigns. IA5 makes mention that it is why the Dark Angels left.

Kanluwen wrote:Because Rex asked the Red Hunters for aid.

Uh, the book doesn't say that. He asked the Red Scorpions and the Dark Angels, but turned to the Grey Knights and the Red Hunters.

And a "call for assistance" sounds much more commanding than a request, too.

He "turned" to the Grey Knights because the Ordo Malleus has authority over them--and they're naturally experienced in fighting Daemons.

Just like the Red Hunters, who have sworn oaths and made themselves available, are also experienced in fighting anything the Inquisition requests them to fight.



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Lynata wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:And you haven't actually proved your point, you have just given a source that clearly says that the red hunters are not part of the inquisition

Mhm? The book compares the Red Hunters to the Grey Knights - I consider the Grey Knights to be part of the Inquisition's fighting formations.

The book also makes note of a rumor.

Kanluwen wrote:The Red Hunters aren't under permanent Inquisitorial secondment. That's why it talks about "when the Inquisition sequesters them".

Lexicanum talks like that, not the book.

Kanluwen wrote:The Dark Angels and Red Scorpions were "so much more difficult to request the aid of" because they were both involved in campaigns. IA5 makes mention that it is why the Dark Angels left.

That's not what is said in the book, though. He had not much hopes because the Dark Angels had "little trust or loyalty towards an Inquisitor Lord", whereas the Red Scorpions would require careful negotiation and a well-worded request.

Kanluwen wrote:Just like the Red Hunters, who have sworn oaths and made themselves available [...]

You mean like the Deathwatch?

Kanluwen wrote:The book also makes note of a rumor.

Not in its comparison to the Grey Knights.

Considering how you often remind us of the importance of context, you should heed your own advice.

Lynata wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:And you haven't actually proved your point, you have just given a source that clearly says that the red hunters are not part of the inquisition

Mhm? The book compares the Red Hunters to the Grey Knights - I consider the Grey Knights to be part of the Inquisition's fighting formations.

Well either quote the actual piece you need to support your claim or move on.

you can compare many thing, it doesn't make them the same, the quote you gave clearly says that they are seperate and not under direct control/ownership/or part of the inquisition.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Red Hunters aren't under permanent Inquisitorial secondment. That's why it talks about "when the Inquisition sequesters them".

Lexicanum talks like that, not the book.

Because Lexicanum is also citing the Black Library's seminal work, "Insignium Astartes: The Uniforms and Regalia of the Space Marines" as a source. Forge World made up a background based upon supposition that came about from Insignium Astartes and the depictions of the Red Hunters within.

The part about "the Inquisition sequesters the Red Hunters for operations" is based upon the way the Red Hunters were deployed during Vraks. The Red Hunters have been mentioned before, as I stated, and have been stated as being seconded to the Inquisition.

Kanluwen wrote:The Dark Angels and Red Scorpions were "so much more difficult to request the aid of" because they were both involved in campaigns. IA5 makes mention that it is why the Dark Angels left.

That's not what is said in the book, though. He had not much hopes because the Dark Angels had "little trust or loyalty towards an Inquisitor Lord", whereas the Red Scorpions would require careful negotiation and a well-worded request.

Gee, two Astartes Chapters known for being insular and suspicious require convincing.

Crazy!

Kanluwen wrote:Just like the Red Hunters, who have sworn oaths and made themselves available [...]

You mean like the Deathwatch?

Different story. Deathwatch is a Chapter made up of other Battle-Brothers drawn from other Chapters, who swear their loyalty to the Deathwatch whilst they remain within it.

The Deathwatch, while sworn to serve the Inquisition, also makes their own decisions and deployments as they feel necessary.

Kanluwen wrote:The book also makes note of a rumor.

Not in its comparison to the Grey Knights.

Considering how you often remind us of the importance of context, you should heed your own advice.

Yes, clearly I'm the one who needs to read context, right?
Let's break it down, context by context shall we?

The Grey Knights were not the only Space Marine force Inquisitor Rex turned to--potent though they would be.

Notice how it explicitly states force, not Chapter.

The Red Hunters Chapter also had a long history of putting themselves at the service of the Inquisition.

"Putting themselves at the service of the Inquisition", contextually, is not the same as "The Inquisition controls this group".

So strong was the link between this Chapter and the three great Inquisitorial orders that rumour was that they had been founded at the request of the Inquisitorial representative on Terra, and that there was a secret pact between the Inquisition and the Chapter for mutual support.

Yes, clearly "mutual support" means "The Inquisition owns the Chapter". Chapters being founded at the request of an Inquisitorial representative, as well does not mean "the Chapter was founded for the Inquisition to utilize as another Grey Knights".

Uniquely, the Chapter even bore the Inquisitorial 'I' on its badge. Although still a Chapter of Space Marines that looked to the Codex Astartes for organisation and spiritual guidance, the Chapter made their squads available for rapid responses to Inquisitorial calls for assistance.

Keywords there.
"Although still a Chapter of [/b]Space Marines[/b] that looked to the Codex Astartes for organisation and spiritual guidance, the Chapter made their squads available for rapid responses to Inquisitorial calls for assistance."

The Drug Enforcement Agency sometimes works with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, it does not mean that they are part of it.
The British military sometimes crosstrains and deploys into combat with the US military--it does not mean they are part of one another.

BluntmanDC wrote:you can compare many thing, it doesn't make them the same, the quote you gave clearly says that they are seperate and not under direct control/ownership/or part of the inquisition.

I think I see now why you could interpret it way. I still find the "rumour" a far better explanation than the theorized alternative, but I suppose it's no use argueing over it when the sources are somewhat unclear.

I still maintain it's enough to say there is a clear affiliation ("strong link", as the book puts it), which was the original point of contention here.

Lynata wrote:I think I see now why you could interpret it way. I still find the "rumour" a far better explanation than the theorized alternative, but I suppose it's no use argueing over it when the sources are somewhat unclear.

I still maintain it's enough to say there is a clear affiliation ("strong link", as the book puts it), which was the original point of contention here.

Nobody's saying there's not a clear affiliation. One can be affiliated without being a part of the organization in question.

Meh, let's just agree to disagree.

I think the Inquisitorial seal has to mean something more - a sign of authority, not just of years of common service.

Then it wouldn't be given to members of Inquisitorial warbands, who are not Inquisitors themselves.

Aye, but they belong to the Inquisition. There's a certain connection that enables them to speak with the Inquisition's authority (limited only by their station and any internal challenges that would have to be dealt with elsewhere).

Meaning: When some random bloke encounters a guy wearing a shoulder pauldron which bears the Inquisitorial seal, he's going to gak his pants because he thinks of the Inquisition. They see the organization, not the individual. And in the case of the Red Hunters, they'd see beyond the Chapter, basically regarding the Marines as agents and executioners.

Kinda fits the role they took in Vraks, too, considering they were bodyguards assigned to the various Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus active on that world rather than mounting their own "sub-campaign".

That's how I see it. I think I understand now why you remain unconvinced, though, especially given that those DW pauldrons apparently can be worn beyond actual Inquisitorial service as well. Perhaps future material will shed some more light on the subject.