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How would Imperium react if Space Marines goto Terra, overthrow High Lords and form a council of Space Marine Chapter Masters from original Legion chapters with some of the most influenced chapters now ( Black Templars for example )?

Would they accept new lidership or would they repent?

It would break the Imperium. Would you want another Horus Heresy?

Break it? I think it would bring stability rather than that...
And why do you think Dante, Calgar, Vladimir, Helbrecht, Pedro and others would begin another heresy against the Emperor?

"Overthrowing the High Lords", as in, including the Fabricator-General of the AdMech, the Ecclesiarch, the Inquisitorial Representative and the Lord General Militant of the Imperial Guard?

Wow, that's going to be one hell of a war.

Also, for some reason I can't imagine the Astartes showing that much cooperation. At least not without a major incident giving them a reason.

Brother Coa wrote:Break it? I think it would bring stability rather than that...
And why do you think Dante, Calgar, Vladimir, Helbrecht, Pedro and others would begin another heresy against the Emperor?

Overthrowing it's current rulers because it doesn't fit with what they believe sounds pretty much identical to the Horus Heresy at this basic a description. A bunch of Marines basically ousting the heads of the most powerful organizations would break The Imperium.

Yeah. Many Chapters would oppose it, and would take large groups of Guard with them. It would be civil war on a galactic scale. Dogs and cats, living together. Mass hysteria.

If all regular (no SW, BA, etc; it would be too one-sided otherwise) chapters agreed, it would be the greatest war the galaxy has ever seen. All the IG and the loyal chapters against the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists, the Crimson Fists, all those guys. Can you imagine that? Trillions woud die in the name of awesomeness!

My bets are on Space Marines being kicked out of Terra with their tails between their legs, unless they bring the power of awesomeness with them.

Polvilhovoador wrote:My bets are on Space Marines being kicked out of Terra with their tails between their legs, unless they bring the power of awesomeness with them.

They always do. The only problem is that some Guard regiments do that aswell. And some chapters may remain loyal to Terra, so there's a whole bunch of aweosomeness on both sides then.

Way too many Titans guard Terra now. It would take so many marines to break the defenses... let's just say, the Imperium would see them coming lol.

Lynata wrote:"Overthrowing the High Lords", as in, including the Fabricator-General of the AdMech, the Ecclesiarch, the Inquisitorial Representative and the Lord General Militant of the Imperial Guard?

Wow, that's going to be one hell of a war.

Also, for some reason I can't imagine the Astartes showing that much cooperation. At least not without a major incident giving them a reason.

Not quite, I imagine that AM, Inquisition, Assassins and Ecclesiarchy would agree to that. If they back them up there would be no war and Marine council would be in charge. And I am not saying that Marines would assail Terra, I imagine that Chapter Masters of the most powerful chapters in the Imperium walk into the High Lord room, explain to them how they fai ltheir duty to the Emperor and request that they give their power to them.
I think that most would give, giving the fact that Space Marines are Emperor's chosen warriors and they carry part of him in themselves.

This event would probably be the dent that breaks the camels back in the Imperiums case.

Simply put, another civil war, in this gakhole. And humanity's best fate is fodder for the Tau Empire.

Brother Coa wrote:

Lynata wrote:"Overthrowing the High Lords", as in, including the Fabricator-General of the AdMech, the Ecclesiarch, the Inquisitorial Representative and the Lord General Militant of the Imperial Guard?

Wow, that's going to be one hell of a war.

Also, for some reason I can't imagine the Astartes showing that much cooperation. At least not without a major incident giving them a reason.

Not quite, I imagine that AM, Inquisition, Assassins and Ecclesiarchy would agree to that. If they back them up there would be no war and Marine council would be in charge. And I am not saying that Marines would assail Terra, I imagine that Chapter Masters of the most powerful chapters in the Imperium walk into the High Lord room, explain to them how they fai ltheir duty to the Emperor and request that they give their power to them.
I think that most would give, giving the fact that Space Marines are Emperor's chosen warriors and they carry part of him in themselves.

So they politely overthrow it's current leaders. They would simply be thrown off of Terra for it, or the High Lords would fight them. They aren't just going to let a bunch of Space Marines take control, not after the last time. Both the Ecclesiarchy and the Fabricator would call in the Sisters of Battle and forces of the Mechanicus. I can only imagine the mess once the Cutodes hear that some Astartes are causing a ruckus. It would end one of two ways. Either these Chapter Masters get thrown off of Terra, dead or alive, or they start a civil war. Either way, the Space Marines won't be ruling The Imperium.

Well, we all know the SW and DA would take this as an opportunity to hack each other to pieces...

Doubt it. They have a strong bond due to their confrontations.

Maybe. But I wonder which side the DA would take? Betray the other marines to redeem themselves to the Emperor, or join the other marines in making what to them would seem as a better Imperium?

And you think that High Lords wouldn't back up, even if Astartes are Emperor's made flesh?

What if they made this request with their Primarchs ( say that they return )?

Brother Coa wrote:And you think that High Lords wouldn't back up, even if Astartes are Emperor's made flesh?

What if they made this request with their Primarchs ( say that they return )?

No, they won't. The Horus Heresy still lingers in the thoughts of Imperial command, how do you think they would react if some Space Marines tried to overthrow them? They're probably corrupt as well, there's no way they're just going to step aside. They don't care if the Astartes are the Emperors own flesh, they're pretty much rouges doing what they want in the eyes of the High Lords. It would be civil war, the Imperium would split, or, again, the Custodes or some other force just kicks the Space Marines off of Terra.

A Primarch on the other hand is a whole different story. I still don't think it'll be as easy as asking the High Lords to step down.

Srsly, the Ecclesiarchy and the Astartes aren't exactly on best terms, "Emperor's flesh" or not. They'd just be perceived as heretics the like of Horus - who was the "Emperor's flesh" as well.

The few SoB would only be a minor obstacle against the more powerful and more numerous Marines, though - I imagine the AdMech to be way more of a problem, just like the regiments of the Guard. Remember: In the aftermath of the Heresy, the connections between Astartes and army regiments were severed to prevent exactly something like this from happening again, so they could only bring their own planets' troops with them, facing just about the entire IG.

If they ever get there, for they'd have to get past the Imperial Navy first, which Marine fleets aren't supposed to be capable of outfighting even in a 1-on-1.

That said, if the Marines would bring the invincible Space Wolves and their fleet of Battle Barges I guess Terra would be fethed anyways.

The Space Marines would get their butts handed to them.

It would be Space Marines against the Imperial Guard, Adeptus Mechanicus, Sisters of Battle, Adeptus Costudes, Frateris Militia, Titan Legions and the Imperial Navy.

Space Marines wouldn't get resupplied (no weapons, ammo or fuel), wouldn't be able to travel efficiently and literally have the rest of the Imperium against them.

All of their homeworlds would be blown up or given the Exterminatus Extremis treatment, leaving the marines to continue the fight from strike cruisers and battle barges.

The Space Marines were organised after the Heresy to prevent just such a rebellion ever happening again.

Don't drink the GW kool-aid. A single marine might be able to take on, say 1000 guardsmen, and win. Problem for the Space Marines is that there IS 1000 guardsmen to spare...and more. Then add all the other forces into it and the marines would lose.
They would put up a hell of a fight, but they would never rule the Imperium.

Well to be on the fair side, the Marines would only try to take control if the Lords preform badly ( like brining the Imperium to a brink of REAL defeat ), or if some group want to be like Vandire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:
The few SoB would only be a minor obstacle against the more powerful and more numerous Marines

Are you implementing that there are more Marines then SoB in the galaxy?

Brother Coa wrote:Are you implementing that there are more Marines then SoB in the galaxy?

Implying? Of course. Says so in the 2E Codex and "sort-of" in the 5E rulebook (no exact numbers, but the wording was "three major Orders with several thousand Sisters and many smaller ones with perhaps a hundred each" - which is in line with the 2E stuff ... and definitively doesn't sound like more than a million).

Our brothers from the Adeptus Astartes would never dare question the holy dictates from the High Lords of Terra.

And, if they did, they would be easily crushed by the Holy Will of the Emperor of Mankind.



There's somewhere around a million Space Marines out there (1000 chapters each with 1000 members). Even assuming they all have terminator armor, they're still not all that resistant. It only takes 18 hits from a Lasrifle to kill a terminator armored marine. So, 36 million shots from guardsmen equipped with lasrifles will wipe out the entire Adeptus Astartes.

So, even if only 1 in 10 IG soldiers on Terra gets a shot off, they'd still have enough firepower to wipe out the Space Marines several times over.

I hope that wasn't a serious sum-up of the confrontation. The actual battle would go quite differently, and I can guarantee that a Terminator would wade through Imperial Guard firepower like that.

iproxtaco wrote:I hope that wasn't a serious sum-up of the confrontation. The actual battle would go quite differently, and I can guarantee that a Terminator would wade through Imperial Guard firepower like that.

That was serious.

The thing to remember is that GW's policy is that all fluff and Black Library pieces are written as in-universe propaganda. So, you can't assume the heroic feats written in them are true.

The only thing we actually know about the 40k universe are the in-game mechanics. And, from that, it is very obvious that a Marine is worth about 4 Guardsmen.

We know that the in-game mechanics have been tweaked for balance purposes. A Marine is worth far more than four guardsmen in the imaginary universe.
Everything is propaganda, but it's all we have, so it's what we use. Canon.

iproxtaco wrote:A Marine is worth far more than four guardsmen in the imaginary universe.

Indeed. According to Rogal Dorn, he's worth ten Guardsmen.

According to the Space Marine codex he's worth 12. I think you're going to need a few more than 18 hits from a lasgun to kill a Terminator.

Lynata wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:A Marine is worth far more than four guardsmen in the imaginary universe.

Indeed. According to Rogal Dorn, he's worth ten Guardsmen.

That number begins to increase with the more marines you have...
A single marine may be worth 10 guardsmen but a squad of them are worth more than 100 guardsmen...
In universe of course.

purplefood wrote:That number begins to increase with the more marines you have...
A single marine may be worth 10 guardsmen but a squad of them are worth more than 100 guardsmen...
In universe of course.

Well, if the number increases exponentially, a single Marine would be worth even less - Rogal Dorns original saying was comparing 100 Marines to 1.000 other troops, after all.

I'd rather be inclined to say that it's the other way around, though. Strength in numbers gets stronger the more you escalate, especially given that those 1.000 other troops would likely bring way more tanks and artillery than 100 Marines. Meaning, a single Marine might even be worth 20 Guardsmen, but the more numbers you throw in for both sides, the more the situation will change in favor of the IG.

Just a theory extracted from that single saying, of course. Where exactly is the 12 from, iproxtaco?