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So i play Chaos Space Marines and i have a marine holding an icon. The rules do not say that it replaces the bolter, but i wasnt sure if it was just understood. so basically can the marine holding the icon shoot with his bolter or must he use a bolt pistol?

The icon has no effect on what weaponry he can use.

40k isn't like that. I have a guy carrying a banner who could have a plasma gun, a bolter, a bolt pistol and more. You simply follow the rules for the unit and general shooting rules. It doesn't matter that it looks like the unit can do.

As long as it's not confusing as to who is armed with what I don't think anyone gets hung up on WSIWYG.

If I try to say "this guy with a bolter actually has a melta-gun while these 4 guys with bolters have bolters," my opponent won't be happy.

But most people will be okay if I say "my SM sergeants are modeled with a power fist and are pointing with the other hand, but they all have combi-melta's as well."

kmdl1066 wrote:
But most people will be okay if I say "my SM sergeants are modeled with a power fist and are pointing with the other hand, but they all have combi-melta's as well."

I would disagree with that - combi-meltas are upgrade equipment and pretty significant at that. I would have a problem with it.

If you'd said "all of my point sergeants have the bolt pistols which they come with as standard" then I would not have a problem.

Scott-S6 wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:
But most people will be okay if I say "my SM sergeants are modeled with a power fist and are pointing with the other hand, but they all have combi-melta's as well."

I would disagree with that - combi-meltas are upgrade equipment and pretty significant at that. I would have a problem with it.

If you'd said "all of my point sergeants have the bolt pistols which they come with as standard" then I would not have a problem.

Why exactly would you have a problem with it? Is identifying the one model in the unit with a giant hand held up an issue? If all the sergeants have a combi-melta and powerfist, I don't see how that is confusing or misleading.

Scott-S6 wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:
But most people will be okay if I say "my SM sergeants are modeled with a power fist and are pointing with the other hand, but they all have combi-melta's as well."

I would disagree with that - combi-meltas are upgrade equipment and pretty significant at that. I would have a problem with it.

If you'd said "all of my point sergeants have the bolt pistols which they come with as standard" then I would not have a problem.

I mostly agree with this, and the WYSIWYG rules are rather clear on this exact kind of model's upgrades(a Character, an Upgrade character, but a character just the same); however, I am generally accepting of a declaration that "all of my pointing sergeants have combimeltas", what I will not accept is "This pointing Sgt has a Combimelta, and this pointing Sgt has a Combplasma" or any similar arrangement. This is because it is easy to get confused(or for the "count-as" player to cheat). Both of the above are in the WYSIWYG rules in the BRB(must be modeled, but "count as" is OK too), so long as there is little to no possibility for confusion I am generally all for Count-as.

Because it is very easy to forget after a couple of turns and then suddenly have to deal with a surprise melta.

i.e. I would prefer all upgrade equipment that might matter to be shown.

I'm reasonably sure everyone would like that, but being a dick over it isn't exactly cool either, especially with something like a Combi-melta, which is a difficult bit to find most of the time.
Like Kel said, making it complicated and abuseable isn't cool, but something as easy as "All my sarges have a power fist (modeled) and a combi-melta (not modeled)" is typically pretty acceptable in my experience. I don't know, maybe UK players are more up tight about that.

I don't think it has anything to do with where you are from.

I too prefer upgrades to be clearly shown.

There are of course two totally different scenarios as well.

I think we probably all agree that in a tournament you have to have all upgrades and optional equipment clearly represented. Otherwise you're just being unfair to your opponent.

In casual games where people are frequently trying different options and play testing out configurations I would hope most people would be a little more flexible. I may not want to go the expense and effort of converting up or purchasing combi-meltas before I've had a chance to decide if they're worth it or not.

kmdl1066 wrote: I may not want to go the expense and effort of converting up or purchasing combi-meltas before I've had a chance to decide if they're worth it or not.

This is exactly the example for the allowance in the Rulebook.

Duggs wrote: so basically can the marine holding the icon shoot with his bolter or must he use a bolt pistol?

Unless the Codex entry says you must replace something (or that an upgrade makes you ineligible for something, like a Stormshield always makes you unable to get the bonus for 2 CCWs) then you can use anything the model has in it's entry. It doesn't matter if something looks like you couldn't shoot with it without dropping something else, just as it doesn't matter if the model has a weapon on his back or stuck where the sun don't shine.

I never assumed that whoever it was above was implying that it's ok to field whatever you want as long as you make it clear to the opponent what is what. I thought he knew the WYSIWYG rule, but was just saying that "so long as you make it clear, most people won't care".

Sadly, i've played 40k for years with people who field rediculous things and never own any models. Now when I collect an army I usually have everything there is, but some stupid combinations of equipment I don't have. Seeing as they proxy my models to play, nothing is ever what it's supposed to be, and sometimes they aren't even the same race. If it was a public game then screw that loser, but this was a friend, so it's a little hard to never play 40k with them. Still extra annoying when I own actual models for that army and they still field different gear, and the only reason it went on was the group was so dysfunctional as it was (even bringing anything up is a problem).

I've proxied different models when I play armies that never got models made for it, or if i'm not independently wealthy (so always) and there is a special model that is needed for a single scenario. Typically I expect some sort of effort from someone who plays 40k, shown by making their models accurate (I don't even care about painted), and I assume that is part of the reason the WYSIWYG rule exists. If you aren't putting in the modelling effort, and you aren't fielding what a 'realistic' army should have (which is fluff based), then I assume you are just playing to win, and that takes alot of fun out of playing.

The only time (other than things above) that I accept proxy for is if it doesn't matter ("because you went 10 points over, this guy now has digital weapons"), or if entire units have the exact same thing (except maybe squad leaders). It's not hard to remember that every shoota boy is actually a slugga boy this game.

Was the original question ever answered? You can have whatever wargear you want, something gets replaced, it's not an option, or not allowed to be used a certain way, there will be rules that say so. Alot of time, codex designers get lazy and instead of specifying things that can't be done, they just don't give the option in the codex. It should never come up unless you play a non-standard game.

Magister187 wrote:especially with something like a Combi-melta, which is a difficult bit to find most of the time.

Making a combi melta is incredibly easy. Meltagun+bolter+2mins with a knife = combimelta.

I can beat that: tip of a meltagun, glue to front of ironsight. No knife even needed due to twist technology. 10 seconds work. shizam!

Even if people want real ones, which do look more real, because they are... they are common enough. It's not 2nd edition where you're options are Azrael or... was that it?

Scott-S6 wrote:

Magister187 wrote:especially with something like a Combi-melta, which is a difficult bit to find most of the time.

Making a combi melta is incredibly easy. Meltagun+bolter+2mins with a knife = combimelta.

Meltagun at at $8.00 for five plus $7.00 shipping (if I remember correctly)

Yeah, I want to spend $15 to figure out that I don't actually want to field any combi-melta's after all.

(Yes, yes, I realize that you can always find a use for a combi-melta, but it's the principle!)

Edit: $5.99 for one melta from battlewagon bits

kmdl1066 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Magister187 wrote:especially with something like a Combi-melta, which is a difficult bit to find most of the time.

Making a combi melta is incredibly easy. Meltagun+bolter+2mins with a knife = combimelta.

Meltagun at at $8.00 for five plus $7.00 shipping (if I remember correctly)
Yeah, I want to spend $15 to figure out that I don't actually want to field any combi-melta's after all.
(Yes, yes, I realize that you can always find a use for a combi-melta, but it's the principle!)
Edit: $5.99 for one melta from battlewagon bits

You can use this argument for any upgrade or any model. "It's too expensive / inconvenient so I'll just proxy it."

Absolutely I would use that exact same argument for casual games. Maybe I don't want to spend $50 on a box of assault terminators until I've played a couple games with proxies and decide I do want them.

As long as your opponent has no problem with it then you're fine.

The advantage to having a WYSIWYG army (much like having a painted army) is that no-one is going to complain about it.

kmdl1066 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Magister187 wrote:especially with something like a Combi-melta, which is a difficult bit to find most of the time.

Making a combi melta is incredibly easy. Meltagun+bolter+2mins with a knife = combimelta.

Meltagun at at $8.00 for five plus $7.00 shipping (if I remember correctly)

Yeah, I want to spend $15 to figure out that I don't actually want to field any combi-melta's after all.

(Yes, yes, I realize that you can always find a use for a combi-melta, but it's the principle!)

Edit: $5.99 for one melta from battlewagon bits

interesting, my FLGS has packs of 10x MeltaGuns for about 6-7$

they're metal but they work wonders.

JD

PS I agree with the S-6 on wanting models represented properly.

kmdl1066 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Magister187 wrote:especially with something like a Combi-melta, which is a difficult bit to find most of the time.

Making a combi melta is incredibly easy. Meltagun+bolter+2mins with a knife = combimelta.

Meltagun at at $8.00 for five plus $7.00 shipping (if I remember correctly)

Yeah, I want to spend $15 to figure out that I don't actually want to field any combi-melta's after all.

(Yes, yes, I realize that you can always find a use for a combi-melta, but it's the principle!)

Edit: $5.99 for one melta from battlewagon bits

Well bits are sold overpriced because if you don't charge extra when you break things up, there is no point in selling. Are you talking GW direct? Idk, but even if so don't they still have free shipping for any order over $20 (or w/e)?

Or you can look at the sternguard box, which not only has 5 veterans, it has special looking guns, including a combi plasma and combit melta (with a hand and half arm built in).

Or you can look at the SM commander box I believe, which is cheaper and plastic. There are probably other places I can't remember too.

Then there's ebay, where either box can be gotten cheaper. Or there's go through someone like me, where I can get you anything orderable from my supplier for (at worst) 20% off (at best, I doubt over 30%).

Hey, this isn't the topic is it? Why isn't there a 'sage' option, or is there?