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First off, I am a long time (and I mean since 2nd ed) Eldar player and have about 3500 points of Ulthwe. However, I have never ran a Saim Hann style list.

I recently decided to pull out a ton of fantasy High Elves that have been sitting in my attic for years and have begun converting them into an Exodite force, using my Dragon Princes as a base for the Jetseer Council, Prince and Mage models for my Autarch and Farseer, and Silver Helms as a base for my Guardian Jetbikers. I also have some Dragons that I will be moding to use as my heavies. This is where me dilema lies. I am trying to decide whether to use all 3 of them to be Fire Prisms, or to use 2 of them as Davu Falcons - the points cost comes out to be the same. Since I am converting the dragons riders to have weapons that make the Dragons WYSIWYG, I am looking for some input before I start modding them. If I go DAVU Falcons, I will be using High Elf Archers as the base model for the DAs.

Headquarters
Farseer, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Stones, Fortune, Doom, Jet Bike: 185
Autarch, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters, Jet Bike: 140
6 Warlocks – 2x Enhance, 2x Embolden, 2x Destructor, Jet Bikes: 330

Troops
6 Guardian Bikers, 2x Shuriken Cannon, Warlock, Singing Spear, Embolden: 205
6 Guardian Bikers, 2x Shuriken Cannon, Warlock, Singing Spear, Embolden: 205
6 Guardian Bikers, 2x Shuriken Cannon, Warlock, Singing Spear, Embolden: 205

Heavy Support
Fire Prism, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones : 160
Fire Prism, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones : 160
Fire Prism, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones : 160

OR...
Drop the Fire prisms for:
Falcon, Holo-fields, EML, Stones, DAVU: 240
Falcon, Holo-fields, EML, Stones, DAVU: 240

With the first option I get more AV, high S shots, and more ramming/tank shock goodness.
With the second option I get more S8 shots and two more scoring units.

Since I am new to the Saim Hann playstyle, I am looking for folks with experience in it to chime in with their idea as to which is better. The rest of the army is set in stone, since these are models I own and are almost done converting. My only question is the best use of my Dragons/tanks. I don't expect this list to win any major tourneys, as it is more about the modeling/converting possibilities; however, I would like it to be as stong as I can, while keeping with my theme.

Thanks in advance.

No ideas, anyone?

Fire prisms don't have really reliable tank killing power. I would neither take falcons or fire prisms but would take 2 squads of War Walkers with scatter lasers or EMLs and a fire prism if you need you can outflank them which puts them where they can access the really vulnerable targets. Falcons nor fire prisms have very reliable tank killing power.

Helvost wrote:Fire prisms don't have really reliable tank killing power. I would neither take falcons or fire prisms but would take 2 squads of War Walkers with scatter lasers or EMLs and a fire prism if you need you can outflank them which puts them where they can access the really vulnerable targets. Falcons nor fire prisms have very reliable tank killing power.

Did you read the reasons for this army at all?

I am using fantasy DRAGONS as a proxy for tanks. Period. Warwalkers don't work. This is a fluff list, being converted from fantasy models I currently own. Please limit your advice to the peramiters of the question that I posed.

Helvost wrote:Falcons nor fire prisms have very reliable tank killing power.

I have to respectfully disagree with this post. Fire prisms can have extremely good tank killing power. When you combine two of them to focus a beam, you are hitting with a STR 10, AP 1 weapon that is twin linked. The TL means that you will hit a land raider 90% of the time. The AP1 means that penetrating hits will have a 50% of destroying the target. That is as good as it gets when it comes to destroying vehicles -- and has a equal or greater chance than a MG within 6".

The trick is to use the prism on the right targets. Use them to hit large, high AV targets that are a big danger. Stormravens, land raiders, or monoliths fit this category quite nicely. Dreadnoughts are not the correct target, as a deviation of 1" can spin you off target.

Personally, I field 2 prisms and 1 nightspinner. This lets me have 2 TL shots. The nightspinner is good to help disrupt enemy plans and give me flexability. I will also throw it on a raider/raven during turn 1 or 2. While the rending does have a very small chance of hurting the vehicle, there is a 1/6 chance that the vehicle will be immobolized -- which renders most of those builds useless.

In my opinion fire prisms should not be given any upgrade options because the upgrades don't help keep them shooting enough for their points cost (45 points per for holo-fields and spirit stones).

If you go with the 3 fire prisms you would have 135 points to spend on other stuff. Bigger seer council would be a good option, if you have the models to build them.

It also opens up the possibility of:
2x fire prism (no upgrades)
1 davu falcon as you specify + the chin shuriken cannon

So your anti-tank is all kinda marginal, but it is everywhere. That will still be a problem vs heavier tanks, but you are pretty much doing what you can without taking fire dragons.

It could possibly be smart to split one jetbike squad into 2x3 & add that warlock to the seer council to beef it up. Put it's spear on the farseer (who has better BS). Those jetbikes just zoom around providing cover saves & being innocuous enough not to waste firepower on so they maybe survive to take an objective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Fire prisms can have extremely good tank killing power."

230 points minimum for 2 fire prisms (320 as specced). That's why fire prisms are marginal anti-tank. You get very few shots for the points.

Well, I had never good luck with Prisms. Their large blasts more often than not bounce off and thier killing potential is rather low.
Therefore, I stay away from them.
On the other hand, your army desperately needs anti-tank and thus Prisms can be useful.

Agreed w/ cosmid about min Prisms and DAVU Holo-Falcons. I prefer to take the Prisms bare. And scoring Holo-Falcons are really good units.

To answer peoples concerns as to why I put ugrades on the Prisms:
The reason I went Holo-fields + Stones on the Prisms was to keep them alive and mobile, even when the main weapon is destroyed. S10, auto-hit, 24" rams tend to help with anti-tank, and the tankshocks help with objective clearing/contesting

In my Mech lists, I never upgrade Prisms; however, in this list, keeping them alive and threatening with Rams/Tankshocks , I figured was a good way to keep AT shots away from my Bikers, and keep the tanks useful even in the late game. With only 3 vehicles at 1750, I feel they need to be as survivable as possible, whether or not they are actually shooting.

This still leads to the dilema of Falcons Vs. Prisms. I had thought of the 2x Prism + 1x davu falcon, but the missing holo-fields on the Prisms has me worried in a list with only 3 tanks. I also like the 1x Spinner that Labmouse mentioned in my Mech lists, but I am concenred about wasteing one of my three heavy slots on more anti-infantry, since this list has no Fire Dragons or EML WSs to pick up the AT slack.

Love the idea of using tank shock and ram. 2/3 of the time in my battles i can always rely on a good tank smash to kill any anoying remaining tanks. Good outlook on keepinh those lethal tanks alive, anything with holo fields is hard to stop!

Saim Hann ftw¡

Plus the tank-smashing is something you would expect fluff-wise for Saim-Hann to do since they are considered the most backwards of the Eldar craftworlds.

Helvost wrote:Fire prisms don't have really reliable tank killing power. I would neither take falcons or fire prisms but would take 2 squads of War Walkers with scatter lasers or EMLs and a fire prism if you need you can outflank them which puts them where they can access the really vulnerable targets. Falcons nor fire prisms have very reliable tank killing power.

I was sorely wrong about this post. Its kinda funny, now I use 3 fire prisms in my lists lol. It works great