Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, I've written up what I think is a fairly balanced Salamanders list.

Here goes:
HQ:
Vulkan - 190

Librarian - 100

Troops:
10xTac SM
-multimelta/meltagun/combi-melta for sergeant
Rhino
Total: 220

10xTac SM
-flamer/missile launcher/combi-flamer for sergeant
Razorback
-las/plas
Total: 255

10xTac SM
-plasma gun/plasma cannon/combi-plas for sergeant
Razorback
-las/plas
Total: 270

Elites:
5xSternguard
-3xcombimelta, 2xcombiflamer
Razorback
-las/plas
Total: 225

Fast Attack:
1xLandspeeder
-Heavy Flamer/multimelta
Total: 60

1xLandspeeder
-Heavy Flamer/multimelta
Total: 60

8x Assault Marines
-no jumppacks/Free Rhino
-power weapon for Sergeant
Total: 179

Heavy Support:
Predator
-HB sponsons
Total: 85

Predator
-lascannon sponsons
Total: 120

Whirlwind
Total: 85

Basic idea:
Vulkan rides with the Assault Marines. Librarian goes where needed in the Razorback squads. Typical split for the Tac Squads with Razorbacks would be Sgt/special in the Razorback, heavy weapon stays back. I have 5 maneuver elements (3 Razorbacks, 2 Rhinos) & 2 stay at home scoring units (Combat squads), and I've got a lot of twin-linked flamer/melta goodness.

I know people aren't big fans of the Whirlwind, but it's cheap and can ignore cover, hopefully allowing me to clear a small stay at home unit off a objective, or make them easy meat in assault. Still, I'm not married to it.

Downsides: Definite need to coordinate fire to take on deathstars. Assault Marines + Vulkan are for killing Tac squads/Combat squads, as they certainly can't take down Hammernators or true deathstars. Librarian with Null Zone will help, but is not perfect. Against IG mech, it will be tough, because AV12 is just not that easy to pop at range for Salamanders. SM tacticals aren't the best, but I'm hoping that by specializing each squad, I'll get more mileage out of each of them. Having TL on the combi-meltas and flamers should really increase their effectiveness for the 10point investment.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure I like the addition of the Assault Marines in any sense. Fluff wise, Salamanders don't employ them due to the difficulty in training on a world with fluctuating gravity, and even without Jump Packs it makes more sense to run Assault Terminators in their place. Game-wise, they lack a Land Raider to ride in, and that's really the only way to play an assault unit. Otherwise you lack the ability to assault out of your transport if it moved, meaning a significantly decreased threat range.

Tactically it's just an unwise decision. For a balanced list, you should be playing to Vulkans strengths and minimizing weaknesses while attempting to include units effective against a broad range of targets. This means taking Meltaguns, Flamers, Thunder Hammer, and long ranged weaponry capable of suppressing enemy vehicles as your force closes. Salamanders are specialists of close quarter fighting, and thus should outfit for that role. Plasma is also not outside the realm of their battle doctrine, so taking Plasma Cannon/Heavy Flamer Dreadnoughts can accomplish several goals in this list, lending melee support and a strong ranged element capable of dealing with FNP Troops.

Anyway, that's just my two cents on the matter.

So in your view, what would be dropped for dreads?

Vulkan can't ride in a rhino.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry he has artificer armor.

meltabum wrote:Vulkan can't ride in a rhino.

Why not? He's in artificer armor?

Edit: you said the same

Actually, taking the time to look over your list in more detail, it would appear that you have the points cost wrong for those Land Speeders. They should be 70 each, not 60, so you might be over on points.

As for fitting the Dreads, I would replace the Librarian, the Assault Marines and the Whirlwind with 2x PC/HF Dreadnoughts and possibly some additional Sternguard. They do make a good bodyguard for Vulkan in the absence of Assault Terminators.

Perhaps something like this:

Vulkan - 190
9 Sternguard (4x Combi-Melta, 4x Combi-Flamer, 1x Heavy Flamer, Rhino) - 310
Dreadnought (Plasma Cannon, Heavy Flamer) - 125
Dreadnought (Plasma Cannon, Heavy Flamer) - 125
10 Tactical Marines (Missile, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Razorback w/ TL Las) - 260
10 Tactical Marines (Missile, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Razorback w/ TL Las) - 260
10 Scout Snipers (Telion, Missile Launcher) - 200
Land Speeder (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 70
Land Speeder (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 70
Predator (Autocannon, Sponsion Lascannons) - 120
Predator (Autocannon, Sponsion Lascannons) - 120
Total 1,850

By trading out one Tactical Squad for Scouts, and trading the Assault Marines/Whirlwind/Librarian for more Sternguard and a pair of Dreadnoughts, you can afford to add Lascannon Sponsions to your second Predator which helps you with ranged firepower. The issue is that this list still doesn't capitalize all that much on Vulkan's abilities, and I cannot help but think Pedro Kanto would be better off leading this force. Theres something about the lack of TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider that makes this list seem less Salamanders oriented.

A lot of things wrong with this list
1)If this lists HQ is vulkan EVERY tac squad should have a MM, Melta gun slash flamer and a combi flamer/ melta or TH and
you should include TH/SS assault termies in a Redeemer w/ MM
2) Scouts seriously?
3) Telion you've got to be joking he's fething Ultrasmurfs not fething Salamanders
4) All Dreadnoughts should be SH/HF

That concludes my rant

What's wrong with scouts?
What's wrong with using Telion?
And my particular favourite... what's wrong with using assault marines in a salamanders list? Point me to the fluff which says verbatim "Fluff wise, Salamanders don't employ them due to the difficulty in training on a world with fluctuating gravity".
If anything, they can be used as a more specialised and fluffy alternative to tactical squads as they can take two flamers and a thunder hammer.
Mwehh!

suicidal space marine wrote:A lot of things wrong with this list
1)If this lists HQ is vulkan EVERY tac squad should have a MM, Melta gun slash flamer and a combi flamer/ melta or TH and
you should include TH/SS assault termies in a Redeemer w/ MM
2) Scouts seriously?
3) Telion you've got to be joking he's fething Ultrasmurfs not fething Salamanders
4) All Dreadnoughts should be SH/HF

That concludes my rant

See, this is why we can't have nice things. I hope you realise that competitive lists generally require long range shooting.

Onto the list.

The Tactical Marines are all over the place. Stick with one general setup that allows you to take on a wide range of threats. In Vulkan lists, I would go for Combi-Flamer, Meltagun and Missile Launcher. You don't really need double-melta when you're twin-linked, and the flamer allows you to Tank Shock and flame. The Missile Launcher gives you long range shooting which is generally sorely lacking in Vulkan lists. Rhino or Las/Plas Razorback is up to you as points allow, either works.
The Assault Marines aren't doing...anything. Really, they're a CC unit that loses to every other CC unit in the game. You haven't even given them Flamer weapons so they could be useful against hordes, but you already have enough flame templates in the list as it is.
Get rid of the Whirlwind and take 3 Auto/Las Predators instead. You need long range shooting, just because you get fancy twin-linked weapons doesn't change that fact that some lists (ie, Dark Eldar, IG) will walk all over you without long range shooting.

just thought id point this out seeing as noone else has. razorbacks have transport capacity of 5 and yet you use them to carry 10 man tac squads? put them in rhino and save yourself some points

Ridealgh wrote:just thought id point this out seeing as noone else has. razorbacks have transport capacity of 5 and yet you use them to carry 10 man tac squads? put them in rhino and save yourself some points

Combat Squads.

Why do people post when they don't know anything about the codex? I've never understood this.

suicidal space marine wrote:
1)If this lists HQ is vulkan EVERY tac squad should have a MM, Melta gun slash flamer and a combi flamer/ melta or TH and
you should include TH/SS assault termies in a Redeemer w/ MM

Horrible grammar aside, this line has too many problems to count. Multi-Meltas only have a 24" range and cannot fire on the move. It makes not one hair of difference if your Multi-Melta is Twin Linked when it cannot shoot at its intended target due to being out of range! You take Missile Launchers in Salamander lists (particularly when also fielding Razorbacks for those units) because they can hold an objective and still shoot missiles at tanks.

I happen to agree with Thunder Hammers in the Tactical Squads, and about including TH/SS Terminators, but if you had actually read my post then you would know that.

suicidal space marine wrote:2) Scouts seriously?
3) Telion you've got to be joking he's fething Ultrasmurfs not fething Salamanders

Yes....seriously! Scouts make for excellent objective holders, especially with Telion to give them Stealth and a sniping Bolter capable of picking off a squad leader or a heavy/special weapon. Also, if you knew anything about Telion and his lore, you would know that the Ultramarines often lend him out to other chapters for training or special missions, so including him in a Salamanders list is not at all outside the realm of possibility. Besides, the suggested list only had 200 points left when I designed it and that's not enough to include a fully equipped Tactical Squad, so Scouts make for a decent alternative.

suicidal space marine wrote:4) All Dreadnoughts should be SH/HF

So all Dreadnoughts should be Ironclads? They are almost exclusively melee oriented and the ranged weapons they do get are extremely short ranged. Considering how slowly they move, an opponent could easily drive a unit up and pop them with a Meltagun before they have any chance to do anything. Drop Pods help with this but they are quite inaccurate and half the time the Ironclad ends up nowhere near where you want it. Standard Dreadnoughts are much more versatile, and I've successfully used the PC/HF build several times. That said I've also seen success with MM/HF Dreads on foot in a Salamander list, so that is also an option.

Seriously though, what the hell did I do to you man? Certainly nothing to warrant you cursing at me in an overly abrasive and offensive post. If you cannot contribute to a discussion in a constructive and meaningful way, I would ask that you don't post at all. Posts like yours give the rest of us a bad name.

To address the question about Assault Marines, it's part of Salamanders lore and battle doctrine, some of which can be found in Codex: Space Marines. The Salamanders homeworld of Nocturne has fluctuating gravity, making it nearly impossible to train with Jump Packs, Land Speeders and Bikes. Most people ignore the restrictions on Land Speeders because the MM/HF Build is so good, but that can be overlooked because the chapter DOES have such units, and as long as they are not fielded in high numbers they can be included without going against the fluff.

If you want to read more about the Salamanders and their history, I would recommend looking at this website. It covers their chapter history and structure, as well as their beliefs and their battle doctrine.

To address the question about Assault Marines, it's part of Salamanders lore and battle doctrine, some of which can be found in Codex: Space Marines. The Salamanders homeworld of Nocturne has fluctuating gravity, making it nearly impossible to train with Jump Packs, Land Speeders and Bikes. Most people ignore the restrictions on Land Speeders because the MM/HF Build is so good, but that can be overlooked because the chapter DOES have such units, and as long as they are not fielded in high numbers they can be included without going against the fluff.

Again, not trying to start an argument, but this still doesn't prove that they ~never~ use assault squads.
Also, tac squads no longer have the option of thunder hammers. Sad but true.

Who cares? Assault Marines are terrible regardless of whether they are fluffy or not. They only work in Blood Angels armies because they're troops, have Meltaguns, easy access to FNP and Furious Charge, and make Mech armies much cheaper.

If no-one cares, then why are we discussing it..? OH WAIT....

Seeeeriously though, I agree. Generally not a competitive choice.

unbeliever87 wrote:

Ridealgh wrote:just thought id point this out seeing as noone else has. razorbacks have transport capacity of 5 and yet you use them to carry 10 man tac squads? put them in rhino and save yourself some points

Combat Squads.

Why do people post when they don't know anything about the codex? I've never understood this.

except that there is no mention of combat squads in the list.

Combat Squads - page 51 of the Space Marines codex. Razorbacks also have a transport capacity of 6, not 5.

You have read the Space Marine codex, right?