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I would think by now it would be glaringly obvious how this is going to end up playing out. Which legions do we know for sure utilized librarians before Nikaea? Thousand Sons, Night Lords, Salamanders, Dark Angels, White Scars, Blood Angels, Emperor's Children, Word Bearers and ULTRAMARINES. And who basically takes over the Imperium after the Emperor is good and incapacitated? GUILLIMAN.

The judgement of Nikaea went against Guilliman's faction, but why wouldn't he just turn around and reverse it as soon as there's no one left to stop him? Does he seem like the kind of guy who is going to stop doing something his way just because the Emperor told him not to? Afterall, the Emperor decreed that the Astartes would fight as legions and Guilliman goes ahead and does away with that too. I mean he practically threatens to destroy the Imperial Fists when Dorn refuses to do as he's told and adopt the Codex (ref Iron Cage). Now we know that Dorn, Corax, Mortarion and Russ were all vehemently opposed to the use of librarians; Dorn and Corax even refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons because of this. But look at the Imperial Fists in M41 - they have librarians. So what would have caused Dorn to do a complete 180 and adopt librarians? The Codex of course. And this is why Black Templars, who never adopted the Codex, don't have librarians.

So I think librarians are going to end up being reintroduced by Guilliman after he takes over the Imperium. You know... because he's a traitor.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:You know... because he's a traitor.

People don't seem to understand that those guys who said that were just playing the traitors in the wargame. It wasn't enormous deal.

They're not only training to fight Horus' forces, but the loyal ones as well, no doubt in the expectation that they very well may end up at war with them when Guilliman makes his power play. And judging by Dorn's reaction this wasn't an unrealistic expectation.

It seems to imply that Guilliman is waiting for a winner to emerge before he steps in and imposes his vision for the "Second Imperium" - a radical new order in which the power of the primarchs and their legions is broken.

To his credit, he doesn't install himself as the "Second Emperor" (though it remains to be seen whether this is due to his magnanimity or simply the Emperor's inconvenient failure to actually die), but his new order does result in his legion (or more accurately its successor chapters) becoming the predominant Astartes, surpassing all others by an order of magnitude. Go figure.

Omegus wrote:1.) Loyalist forces win. Both sides will be diminished, and someone will have to keep order as well as chase the remnant traitor forces out of the galaxy. AKA The Scouring AKA "What Actually Happened"

This. Why would Guilliman assume that in this scenario the Emperor would be incapacitated? What if the loyalist forces win but the Emperor doesn't agree with Guilliman stepping in and imposing his new order? Afterall, part of his new Codex goes directly against the Emperor's stated intentions (i.e. no librarians). Thus the wargames against the loyalists.

Omegus wrote:He's not assuming in that case the Emperor is incapacitated. But the Emperor is not about to go on a solo hunting mission around the galaxy to chase down all the traitors.

So then why is he training his legion to fight other loyalist legions? The only scenario in which this would be necessary is one in which Horus is defeated; if Horus wins then the Ultramarines fight Horus and his allies, not the loyalists. Now assuming Horus is defeated and the Emperor survives, there are two possibilities which would necessitate fighting other loyalist legions:

1. Guilliman introduces his Codex Astartes and proposes that all the legions adopt it and be broken up. The Emperor agrees. This causes a handful of loyalist primarchs to oppose the Emperor. The Ultramarines plus those legions in favor of the Codex go to war against those opposed.

2. Guilliman introduces his Codex Astartes and proposes that all the legions adopt it and be broken up. The Emperor disagrees. This causes the Guilliman to oppose the Emperor AND ALL THE OTHER LOYALIST LEGIONS. The Ultramarines go to war against everyone.

I posit that the wargames against the Salamanders are in preparation for scenario number 2. Afterall, why would he be training to fight the Salamanders if it was in preparation for scenario 1? They had already been decimated at Istvaan V. They didn't even have enough battle brothers left to spawn any successor chapters. And they were loyal to the Emperor.

Now it's quite possible that Guilliman has no wish to install himself as Emperor. However, he may be planning to institute his new order by force for the good of the Imperium, even if it means opposing the Emperor.

Nagashek wrote:If we see it from this angle, the fluff makes PERFECT SENSE. The Librarians were never outlawed by the Emperor at all. They were merely forbidden from researching sorcery, and were constrained only to strengthening their own human-based psychic powers: an angle the Emperor would have approved of anyway (being all anthro-centric as he was).

The Emperor explicitly outlaws librarians at Nikaea. Read A Thousand Sons.

Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).

You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?

Omegus wrote:The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).

Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.

Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.

Omegus wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Now it's quite possible that Guilliman has no wish to install himself as Emperor. However, he may be planning to institute his new order by force for the good of the Imperium, even if it means opposing the Emperor..

And I absolutely love the last line. Uh, yes, that is indeed quite possible, considering he had an opportunity to do just that and did no such thing.

He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.

I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.

Omegus wrote:

biccat wrote:Wow, really, "fanwanking theory"? That's...novel.

The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.

Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure fanwankery.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).

You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?

Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.

Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.

He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.

I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.

Spoiler:

It was to be his greatest work, his Magnum Opus, the undertaking for which he would be forever remembered. Some might consider such sentiment to be vanity on his part, but he knew better. This was a work that would save everything his gene-father had tried to build. Its teachings would form the foundation of what was needed to weather the coming storm.

Selflessness, not pride, guided his hand as he set down decades of accumulated wisdom, each chapter and verse a fragment of his biologically encoded genius, each morsel of imparted knowledge a building block that would combine to form a work immeasurably greater than the sum of its parts. In the wake of the devastation unleashed on Calth, the Legion was looking to him for leadership more than ever. His warriors had suffered a grievous blow to their pride, and desperately needed to see their primogenitor. Helots brought petitions for audiences from his Chapter captains every day, but this endeavour was too important to grant such requests. They did not understand why he sequestered himself away from his sons, but they did not need to understand. All that was required of them was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.

In all his years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice. The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.

The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not.

Yes, that totally sounds like some megalomaniac planning a coup because he disagrees with his father.

Now quit trolling.

Actually, it sounds like he's trying to justify it to himself. In fact it sounds a lot like Magnus.

Nicholas wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Omegus wrote:

biccat wrote:Wow, really, "fanwanking theory"? That's...novel.

The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.

Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure fanwankery.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).

You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?

Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.

Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.

He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.

I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.

Spoiler:

It was to be his greatest work, his Magnum Opus, the undertaking for which he would be forever remembered. Some might consider such sentiment to be vanity on his part, but he knew better. This was a work that would save everything his gene-father had tried to build. Its teachings would form the foundation of what was needed to weather the coming storm.

Selflessness, not pride, guided his hand as he set down decades of accumulated wisdom, each chapter and verse a fragment of his biologically encoded genius, each morsel of imparted knowledge a building block that would combine to form a work immeasurably greater than the sum of its parts. In the wake of the devastation unleashed on Calth, the Legion was looking to him for leadership more than ever. His warriors had suffered a grievous blow to their pride, and desperately needed to see their primogenitor. Helots brought petitions for audiences from his Chapter captains every day, but this endeavour was too important to grant such requests. They did not understand why he sequestered himself away from his sons, but they did not need to understand. All that was required of them was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.

In all his years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice. The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.

The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not.

Yes, that totally sounds like some megalomaniac planning a coup because he disagrees with his father.

Now quit trolling.

Actually, it sounds like he's trying to justify it to himself. In fact it sounds a lot like Magnus.

It's talking about him not him talking, so no.

From the same quoted section of Age of Darkness above:


Guilliman believes his father will understand his decision to betray him. And who knows, maybe he's right.

Nicholas wrote:You can't take one word out of an entire quote and take it out of context, yes the word betrayal supports your point, but in the context of the entire quote it does not. He went against what was right for his father in order to help the Imperium which is his father's dream and Guillman knew the Emperor would want his dream to go on without him.

And that's different from what I said, how exactly? Guilliman is planning to betray the Emperor for the good of the Imperium. If he's not planning to betray the Emperor, then why is he making plans for how the Second Imperium will be organized? Shouldn't that be up to Emperor?

If Horus would of won he would not have betrayed the Imperium as his intents were clearly stated in that quote.

If Horus had won there would have been no Emperor to betray.

If I'm not mistaken the Librarians returned before the Codex came into effect anyway, by the order of Malcador not Guillman.

Source?

Nicholas wrote:You implied several times he would have attacked the Emperor and the other loyalists if they had won.

Only if they refuse to go along with his Imperium Secundus. Note that this is not complete speculation. He actually does issue an ultimatum to the Imperial Fists to disband their legion or face the consequences.

So very different, he calls it a betrayal because he feels he is betraying his father by not helping him, not because he is staging some sort of coup de ta.

I said Imperium not Emperor. The point being he wasn't waiting to see who won first.

He is holding his legion back on Ultramar, conserving their strength and preparing them to fight the other Legions, so that when he advances on Terra he will be able to implement his new order by force if necessary and none will be able to stop him. For the good of the Imperium of course.

DarknessEternal wrote:

daveNYC wrote:
Speaking of deeds, there's a couple of things I noticed when I was reading about the Ultramarines and their war games:
1) They aren't fighting Word Bearers.
2) They aren't rushing to Terra to try and help their father.

1. That battle was long over by this point.
2. Neither were several of the other loyalist legions. Warp storms cut them off from heading to Terra so they were doing what they could in the areas they in which they were isolated. In other news, neither were any of the Chaos legions. It was several years between the dropsite massacre and the siege of terra.

The Dark Angels were fighting the Night Lords on the Eastern Fringe. The Space Wolves and White Scars were fighting the Alpha Legion while trying to get to Terra. The Ultramarines were hanging back on Ultramar conserving their strength while MAKING PREPARATIONS TO FIGHT THE OTHER LOYALISTS.

daveNYC wrote:I think that's the problem that people have with the story. It shows the Ultramarines planning for what would happen if all the other loyalists failed, and not working to help the other loyalists succeed. Just what would Guilliman have said if the Emperor had won? "Good job on winning pops, I was making plans to cover things if you'd gotten beaten down but you sure pulled it out."

This. He is planning on overthrowing the Emperor so that the Emperor's dream (i.e. the Imperium) will survive. Guilliman believes his Second Imperium will succeed where the Emperor's First Imperium failed. Guilliman knows the Emperor will understand. Because up until this point the Emperor has been nothing if not understanding- just ask Lorgar and Magnus.

But seriously, the Emperor would understand. This is because Guilliman is doing exactly what the Emperor would do were the roles reversed. It's stated in The First Heretic that of all the primarchs Guilliman most resembles the Emperor in character. And the Emperor is nothing if not ruthless - he would do absolutely anything to ensure the survival of the Imperium of Man. And so would Guilliman - even if it means betraying his father.

Now just because the Emperor would understand doesn't mean he would just lie down and let Guilliman have his way. Afterall, the other two defining characteristics of the Emperor are hubris and megalomania.

Nicholas wrote:It clearly stated his intentions in the previous quote and it is not what you are saying it is.

What do you think I'm saying his intentions are? It's pretty clear from the quote that his intentions are to save the Imperium through betrayal.

You took one word out of context and used it as proof I am done arguing this as your theory has been refuted by canon fluff.

How? Age of Darkness certainly seems to imply that he's hanging back and preparing for the moment when he can step in and impose his new order after the dust has cleared. And that's exactly what he does in the canon fluff.

Omegus wrote:I disagree with your basic assumption that the Emperor would object to his plans. The Emperor wasn't omniscient, and he tended to trust his sons for the most part to be autonomous. Guilliman was clearly the superior administrator, and described as most like his father in temperament, so it's more likely the Emperor would not only understand, but approve as well.

Well I guess that depends on whether or not Guilliman's plans allow for the Emperor to remain as the undisputed master of the Imperium. The Emperor doesn't seem like the kind of guy to gracefully step aside. And the story of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy is rife with examples of primarchs disobeying their father's stated commandments under the assumption that he would understand and approve, only to find, nope I was wrong, oh crap here come the custodes.

The way I read the short story, Guilliman acknowledges that his actions may be seen as treasonous, but such an interpretation would only be made by lesser minds that can't grasp the full scope of what's at stake and what he's trying to accomplish.

It's called hubris. And it seems to be a common failing in the Emperor and his progeny.

That's far from the mustache-twirling, "muahahaha, I know best and I will force my vision upon the galaxy, muahahahaha!" villain you painted him as in your original posts on the subject.

I never meant to imply he was a "villian". "Mustache-twirling" is always a pisspoor motivation for an antagonist. That's why ADB is awesome and Ben Counter is a hack.

Besides, good is a point of view. Guilliman is trying to force his vision upon the galaxy, like the Emperor before him. Guilliman's motivations are the same as the Emperor's. But here's the point - loyalty to the Emperor is not one of them. Guilliman sees that the Emperor has failed. So now he is assuming the role previously played by the Emperor. Guilliman believes that now only he has the vision to guide humanity along the razor's edge and save them from extinction. This is of course exactly what the Emperor believed, and we see how well that turned out.

The Emperor was all about enlightenment and truth, yet Dorn and the Sigilite oversaw the creation of the Inquisition, as well as the policy of ruthlessly squashing the truth "for the good of the Imperium" (read The Last Remembrancer). Were they also traitors?

But the Emperor was not all about enlightenment and truth. The whole point of Nikaea was to stop Magnus from discovering the truth - that the Imperial Truth was a lie from the very beginning. This is what Dorn realizes in the The Last Remembrancer. But he still remains loyal to the Emperor. So while Guilliman's loyalty is to a dream built on lies, Dorn's loyalty lies with the liar who dreamt it.

English Assassin wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.

Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:

Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.

No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.

Beginning with ad hominem attacks is seldom the sign of a strong argument. It is hard to deny that Rune Priests are Space Marines, and that they are psykers; they have (under 5th edition) a different list of powers, but then so do the Blood Angels. Unless you can find canonical statements to the contrary, the conclusion requiring the fewest assumptions is that the difference, as with the White Scars' Storm Seers, is one of the legions' nomenclature, not the psykers' nature.

In that light it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the Emperor didn't care what individual legions called their Librarians, and used the term generically. Certainly his proscription, framed in terms sufficiently broad that astropaths and navigators had to be specifically excluded from it, would appear to be one against the use of psychic powers by the legions, not against the particulars of their organisation.

I think the difference is that while the White Scars believed their Storm Seers to be psykers and analogous to librarians, the Space Wolves did not believe the same for their Rune Priests. Of course the distinction is complete tripe and only exists in the minds of the Space Wolves, but there you have it. So when the Emperor says "no more psychic powers" the Space Wolves continue to use them because they honestly do not believe they are doing so.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:In comparison, the retcon is full of holes. Now the Emperor, or someone with sufficient authority, has to reverse the Council of Nikea decision, where previously it was said that the decree still stood in M41. Just one more arbitrary and short-sighted mistake on the Emperor's part, added to a growing list that's piling up in this Horus Heresy series.

I believe in the Salamander series one of the Marines Malevolent states that "some of us still adhere to the tenets of Nikaea" and one of the Salamanders declares the Marines Malevolent "worse than Black Templars". Everything I've read seems to imply that the decree was never reversed, but by M41 most consider it to be outdated. I think this fits in with the theory that it is Guilliman, not the Emperor, who ultimately does away with it and reintroduces librarians.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Worse, the distinction between psychic talent and using arcane lore to achieve your goals is being blurred, as evidenced by the Mat Ward-ing of the Grey Knight codex:

"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through the veil of science or sorcery... thusly armoured, a Grey Knight can wield forbidden sorceries, harness taitned artefacts and scour the pages of blasphemous tomes without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command".

Of course there's no friggin' magic in the 41st Millennium! There's still a big difference between what a Grey Knight psyker does and what a Chaos cultist non-psyker does when they draw on the warp. It's a much bigger difference than the observer's "view". If you don't explain that to people, if you casually drop it from the fluff, then the whole psyker schtick stops making any sort of sense. If you call on an arcane spell, but you have good intentions and believe in science, you're safe? If you do the same thing, but you're thinking naughty thoughts, you're overwhelmed with cursed power? So there's no distinction between a cult using a forbidden ritual to open a door to the warp, and a psyker doing the same thing with innate power and a disciplined mind so their squad can teleport across the battlefield?

Sorry for the rant, but this is all a major screw-up. The older fluff fit together, while this new stuff seems very poorly thought out.

I think the new fluff is more grimdark. If the distinction between psychic powers and sorcery only exists in your mind, you'd better have a really strong mind if you're going to use them. It shows what a fine line librarians walk.

Brother Ramses wrote:I think one of the major keys here seems to be the Emperor's own words at the Council.

He specifically pointed out that seeking knowledge as a shortcut to power without first gaining wisdom being the crux of his problem with Magnus. The Emperor places his own path as how much he has sought in his search for knowledge and the wisdom that he has had to earn through those experiences. And that while he has been capable of the quest for power through knowledge, he has also gained the wisdom as to what to do with said power.

The ironic part is that the Emperor is basically guilty of the same thing. "You do not have the wisdom to use such powerful knowledge! Only I have the grand vision to harness the powers of the Warp to create the primarchs and guide humanity in to a new golden age! Oh, hello Horus... do you have a present for your dear old dad? Oops - I guess I'm a toaster oven now."

English Assassin wrote:It's also rather questionable that the Librarius was necessarily exclusively Magnus' creation: there was a Terran Librarian among the Dark Angels who, in the early days of the crusade, found Jonson. Whether the Space Wolves likewise had a Librarius prior (or indeed subsequent) to the rediscovery of Russ is thus an open question, not the closed issue you declare it.

It seems that though Jonson was the first primarch created (tube #1) he was actually one of the later ones to be discovered. We know that at the very least the Khan was found before Jonson. On the other hand, we know that Magnus was with the Emperor when he discovered Lorgar, who in turn had interactions with the other primarchs on Terra in the early years of the Crusade. Also, Monarchia happened a good 50(?) some odd years before the Heresy. So it's entirely possible that Magnus had introduced librarians to the First Legion before the discovery of Jonson.