Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So after reading Thousand Sons, and a few other HH novels, the emperor banishes librarians and all other pysker users (With exceptions to navigators IIRC) from the Astartes Legions, yetttt Librarians are very much still used in the chapters, can anyone enlighten me as to when the emperor decides to change his mind and allow SM pysker use?

IIRC Malcador the Sigilite lifted the ban of librarius departments during the Heresy...

You know, I'm curious about the whole 'Ruling of Nikaea'.

In it, we have the Emperor declaring that Psykers, especially those in the Legions, were to be outlawed.

And yet, the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves were still allowed.

Is this because the Wolves were originally designed to hunt down other Legions, or was it truly thought that their 'Rune Magic' was different from, say, the Thousand Sons' psyker abilities?

Ahhh alright then, sooo what exactly happened to the librarians when they were orginally banished? Did they just fight like normal astartes and not use their powers?

No not really...
Which is why plenty of people dislike the Legion because of it.
Though it has been said the Emperor specifically said Librarians which the Rune Priests were not so... RaW over RaI?

purplefood wrote:Though it has been said the Emperor specifically said Librarians which the Rune Priests were not so... RaW over RaI?

ROFL, that is hilarious.

But yeah, basically that's what it amounted to. The Space Wolves didn't believe they used psychic powers or the Warp, but rather some vague jibberjabber about the cycle of life and death of Fenris or whatever. However, the ritualistic and ward-based practices of the Wolves do seem to be a somewhat "safer" way to channel the Warp.

As for the return of the Librarius department, as well as Primaris Psykers and Psyker Battle Squads, and the Grey Knights being hardcore radicals now, it's just something that will have to be reconciled in future fluff. I've seen people say Malcador changed the ruling out of necessity, but then it really makes that whole Prospero incident a big oops. I really do hope Valdor kills himself in shame once he returns to the ruins of the Imperial Palace after expending all that effort to kill the Emperor's best chance at a non-pyrrhic victory. Oh well.

Ironically it seems the SW belief in their random totems and assorted bits and pieces actually has a small effect on generally pyshichery... that's a word right?

Well, A Thousand Sons actually mentions that. Ahriman notes all the totems and fetishes all over the Wolves (how sad that the models don't reflect their predilection for goofy skin masks), and how the Wolves seem to be surrounded by a Warp-repelling haze that makes them difficult to read. He then comments that belief is a powerful thing, and enough of such small trinkets stacked together can have a real effect.

But thank you for that RAW vs RAI comment, it made my day. Whenever this topic comes up in the future, that will be the answer I give.

I'm here to entertain...
Considering Bjorn gets a 5++ from all the wolves believing he is invincible I can see where Ahriman is coming from...

Considering how bad the last argument about rune priests and librarians got I think we should not bring it up again.

They brought back the Librarians out of necessity, because they really needed all the advantages they could get during and after the Heresy.

According to Lexicanum, the Librarians who were disbanded following Nikaea were returned to their normal battle companies and forbidden to use their powers again. It doesn't mention anything about Malcador the Sigilite repealing the ban, although that seems to make the most logical sense. Nor would this be the first of the Emperor's edicts which are ignored by the Imperium. He expressly forbade his own deification, yet we see how that worked out.

There's a lot of Heresy left to get through, and I have a feeling GW won't forget to tell us why librarians suddenly were kosher again. We'll just have to wait and see.

infinite_array wrote:You know, I'm curious about the whole 'Ruling of Nikaea'.

In it, we have the Emperor declaring that Psykers, especially those in the Legions, were to be outlawed.

And yet, the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves were still allowed.

Is this because the Wolves were originally designed to hunt down other Legions, or was it truly thought that their 'Rune Magic' was different from, say, the Thousand Sons' psyker abilities?

The wolves didn't follow suite because they don't see their Sons of the Storm as psykers and the Thousand Sons, well that's Magnus huge ego in action.

What I would like to know is what happened to the Chaplains appointed in these legions to ensure that psychic powers were not longer used?

After the edict of Nikaea, weren't all the Legions supposed to have these in their ranks?

Doesnt Malcador bring a group of space marine librarians to the Emperor just before the assault on the Vengeant Spirit? The Emperor gives them his blessing I believe. IIRC this is in HH:collected visions.

Those were the original members of the future Inquisition.

Where is the all knowing Kanluwen? he would know the fluff.

Pretty much everything we already know on this topic has alreay been said.

There is no fluff currently as to what The Emperor did to reinstate Librarians. The Grey Knights, all Psykers, were created on his authority, so it's obvious that he had no problem after The Heresy broke out. Why he did it is easy. The point of Nikea was to stop Librarians from straying too far in their studies of The Warp and discovering Chaos, Magnus and his Thousand Sons in particular were the prime perpetrators. Magnus having already contacted Tzeentch, although he had no idea it was a Chaos God. Once the HH started and Chaos showed itself, Daemons coming from the Warp, attacking Terra, there was no reason to keep it hidden. Why would you not allow the use of a potent weapon when the secret you sought to protect against has been revealed? Necessity caused The Emperor to act.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:Doesnt Malcador bring a group of space marine librarians to the Emperor just before the assault on the Vengeant Spirit? The Emperor gives them his blessing I believe. IIRC this is in HH:collected visions.

He does not bring a group of Space Marine Librarians.

He meets with a group of individuals of "an inquisitive nature". Iacton Qruze 'the Half-Heard', Nathaniel Garro, and the Sister of Silence Amenedera Kendel.

Now, we don't know whether or not this actually IS the founding of the Inquisition proper or a measure that Malcador founded for the Heresy that would later evolve into the Inquisition...but it's not a bad bet to assume it will be the founding of the Inquisition.

The part about the Librarian you might be getting mixed up with the Garro audiobook "Oath of Moment" where Garro recruits an Ultramarine Librarian into his band of individuals.

Librarians were banned from Marine Chapters until Rowboat Girlyman wrote up the Codex Astartes with the compromise ruling that said all psykers must wear a tragically un-hip shade of blue.

This prevented Librarians from cool Chapters from looking cool, as they are the only goofball in the army wearing blue, so all the SM enemies know which guy to shoot at the most. Also, the Ruinous Powers are not attracted to psykers with such poor fashion sense, so SM Librarians no longer had to fear daemonic possesion, as long as they wore blue.

It is for the same reason that Chaplains wear black: so that they will be inherantly more awesome than the guy in blue, and thus the purity of the Chapter is assured.

This is why the Grey Knights are so obviously a Radical Faction now; they are psykers that don't wear blue. If they wore blue, they would not be so quick to use daemon weapons or consort with xenos.

They also wouldn't need to Exterminatus every sorry fether who saw them, because everyone would assume they were Ultramarines.

It's actually kinda difficult to argue with that logic...

Rune Magic has always been different from warp magic in Warhammer.

SWs basically use the same type of magic that the Dwarves use in fantasy. The Emprah was cool with that since they didn't tap into the foulness of the black void to get their kicks like the sons did.

purplefood wrote:I'm here to entertain...
Considering Bjorn gets a 5++ from all the wolves believing he is invincible I can see where Ahriman is coming from...

So I guess the next SW codex will give them 'da red wunz go fasta.'

daveNYC wrote:

purplefood wrote:I'm here to entertain...
Considering Bjorn gets a 5++ from all the wolves believing he is invincible I can see where Ahriman is coming from...

So I guess the next SW codex will give them 'da red wunz go fasta.'

Well if you believe the current Internet ideology the next codex will give them wolfy wunz go faster...

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Rune Magic has always been different from warp magic in Warhammer.

SWs basically use the same type of magic that the Dwarves use in fantasy. The Emprah was cool with that since they didn't tap into the foulness of the black void to get their kicks like the sons did.

They most certainly use Warp energy like everyone else.

And the foulness of the black void is where all the good stuff is!

Kanluwen wrote:

Ugly Green Trog wrote:Doesnt Malcador bring a group of space marine librarians to the Emperor just before the assault on the Vengeant Spirit? The Emperor gives them his blessing I believe. IIRC this is in HH:collected visions.

He does not bring a group of Space Marine Librarians.

He meets with a group of individuals of "an inquisitive nature". Iacton Qruze 'the Half-Heard', Nathaniel Garro, and the Sister of Silence Amenedera Kendel.

Now, we don't know whether or not this actually IS the founding of the Inquisition proper or a measure that Malcador founded for the Heresy that would later evolve into the Inquisition...but it's not a bad bet to assume it will be the founding of the Inquisition.

The part about the Librarian you might be getting mixed up with the Garro audiobook "Oath of Moment" where Garro recruits an Ultramarine Librarian into his band of individuals.

I don't think so I have listened to oath of the moment and am pretty sure thats not what I am thinking of, I thought Malcador met with those three at the end of FotE not the Emperor? It's been ages since I read collected visions though and I don't own a copy so I may well be wrong but I didnt think those three were mentioned in the passage I was thinking of, I remember something about a white scar though.

He met with those three at the end of Flight of the Eisenstein, but it wasn't until Oath of Moment that we saw a Librarian join.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Rune Magic has always been different from warp magic in Warhammer.

SWs basically use the same type of magic that the Dwarves use in fantasy. The Emprah was cool with that since they didn't tap into the foulness of the black void to get their kicks like the sons did.

No. Absolutely not.

Runes conjure magics based on etching.

Warp based magic is tapped from the warp itself, in fantasy they are the difference between real magic and fake magic (Elves - Dwarves).

In 40K they are the difference between heresy and w/e. (Sons - Wolves)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:He met with those three at the end of Flight of the Eisenstein, but it wasn't until Oath of Moment that we saw a Librarian join.

Pew pew!! Sound effects in an audio book ftw! As if I didn't already feel like a total pro for listening to an audio book! I have sound FX in it!

haha sorry OT, but yea... Aud lit ftw

Srsly though, every ant with a meager soul worth eating is connected in someway to the warp.. With Runes, its a practice you can connect to the warp, but they aren't the same as reaching into the warp! Its a practice that circumvents the dangers of warp tampering by using runes to knock out "spells" in 40K, the wolves use the "safe" version while the Sons use the "hook me up to a battery and see what happens" version of magic.

While you could call them both heresy think of it like this... The IoM uses the warp to travel.. does that make them followers of the Chaos Gods? No. Yet the warp is a tool they use in a certain capacity, the wolves/sons used the warp in two very different ways and the sons ended up paying for it.