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Omegus wrote:

biccat wrote:Wow, really, "fanwanking theory"? That's...novel.

The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.

Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure fanwankery.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).

You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?

Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.

Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.

He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.

I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.

Spoiler:

It was to be his greatest work, his Magnum Opus, the undertaking for which he would be forever remembered. Some might consider such sentiment to be vanity on his part, but he knew better. This was a work that would save everything his gene-father had tried to build. Its teachings would form the foundation of what was needed to weather the coming storm.

Selflessness, not pride, guided his hand as he set down decades of accumulated wisdom, each chapter and verse a fragment of his biologically encoded genius, each morsel of imparted knowledge a building block that would combine to form a work immeasurably greater than the sum of its parts. In the wake of the devastation unleashed on Calth, the Legion was looking to him for leadership more than ever. His warriors had suffered a grievous blow to their pride, and desperately needed to see their primogenitor. Helots brought petitions for audiences from his Chapter captains every day, but this endeavour was too important to grant such requests. They did not understand why he sequestered himself away from his sons, but they did not need to understand. All that was required of them was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.

In all his years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice. The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.

The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not.

Yes, that totally sounds like some megalomaniac planning a coup because he disagrees with his father.

Now quit trolling.

Actually, it sounds like he's trying to justify it to himself. In fact it sounds a lot like Magnus.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Omegus wrote:

biccat wrote:Wow, really, "fanwanking theory"? That's...novel.

The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.

Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure fanwankery.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).

You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?

Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.

Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.

He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.

I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.

Spoiler:

It was to be his greatest work, his Magnum Opus, the undertaking for which he would be forever remembered. Some might consider such sentiment to be vanity on his part, but he knew better. This was a work that would save everything his gene-father had tried to build. Its teachings would form the foundation of what was needed to weather the coming storm.

Selflessness, not pride, guided his hand as he set down decades of accumulated wisdom, each chapter and verse a fragment of his biologically encoded genius, each morsel of imparted knowledge a building block that would combine to form a work immeasurably greater than the sum of its parts. In the wake of the devastation unleashed on Calth, the Legion was looking to him for leadership more than ever. His warriors had suffered a grievous blow to their pride, and desperately needed to see their primogenitor. Helots brought petitions for audiences from his Chapter captains every day, but this endeavour was too important to grant such requests. They did not understand why he sequestered himself away from his sons, but they did not need to understand. All that was required of them was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.

In all his years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice. The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.

The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not.

Yes, that totally sounds like some megalomaniac planning a coup because he disagrees with his father.

Now quit trolling.

Actually, it sounds like he's trying to justify it to himself. In fact it sounds a lot like Magnus.

It's talking about him not him talking, so no.

squidhills wrote:Librarians were banned from Marine Chapters until Rowboat Girlyman wrote up the Codex Astartes with the compromise ruling that said all psykers must wear a tragically un-hip shade of blue.

This prevented Librarians from cool Chapters from looking cool, as they are the only goofball in the army wearing blue, so all the SM enemies know which guy to shoot at the most. Also, the Ruinous Powers are not attracted to psykers with such poor fashion sense, so SM Librarians no longer had to fear daemonic possesion, as long as they wore blue.

It is for the same reason that Chaplains wear black: so that they will be inherantly more awesome than the guy in blue, and thus the purity of the Chapter is assured.

This is why the Grey Knights are so obviously a Radical Faction now; they are psykers that don't wear blue. If they wore blue, they would not be so quick to use daemon weapons or consort with xenos.

They also wouldn't need to Exterminatus every sorry fether who saw them, because everyone would assume they were Ultramarines.

Great post... I exalt this!

Alpharius wrote:I thought it was more:

Sorcery = Pacts with Warp Beings to gain power

Psyker = Using the 'raw energy' of the Warp

This is what I've always inferred, but I can't recall on what I've based that inference. Has it been explicitly stated anywhere?

English Assassin wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I thought it was more:

Sorcery = Pacts with Warp Beings to gain power

Psyker = Using the 'raw energy' of the Warp

This is what I've always inferred, but I can't recall on what I've based that inference. Has it been explicitly stated anywhere?

If it has then it goes against what it says in the gray knights codex.

Nicholas wrote:If it has then it goes against what it says in the gray knights codex.

Andy Hoare wrote:It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth.
I understand that Tolkien took decades developing his setting before publishing the stories set within it, and still made mistooks. 40k is an ever-evolving setting designed first and foremost to house a really cool game, and as such things don’t always mesh or translate, or they (actually very occasionally) get changed outright. I know which I’d rather be reading and writing.

^ this is from the comment section of Horus Heresy writer Aaron Dembski-Bowden's blog, by the way.

Lynata wrote:

Nicholas wrote:If it has then it goes against what it says in the gray knights codex.

Andy Hoare wrote:It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth.
I understand that Tolkien took decades developing his setting before publishing the stories set within it, and still made mistooks. 40k is an ever-evolving setting designed first and foremost to house a really cool game, and as such things don’t always mesh or translate, or they (actually very occasionally) get changed outright. I know which I’d rather be reading and writing.

^ this is from the comment section of Horus Heresy writer Aaron Dembski-Bowden's blog, by the way.

Yeah but generally codex fluff is what overrides the other fluff. So I will believe that over most other pieces.

Nicholas wrote:Yeah but generally codex fluff is what overrides the other fluff. So I will believe that over most other pieces.

I actually tend to think similarly (see the "what is canon" thread) - I was just suggesting that there simply may not always be a solution and, as Andy said, things may not always tie together perfectly. This could also relate to the original purpose of this thread (though the writers may very well still explain this in later books in a way similar to what has been suggested; as far as I know they're not yet finished, are they?).

Nicholas wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I thought it was more:

Sorcery = Pacts with Warp Beings to gain power

Psyker = Using the 'raw energy' of the Warp

This is what I've always inferred, but I can't recall on what I've based that inference. Has it been explicitly stated anywhere?

If it has then it goes against what it says in the gray knights codex.

The Grey Knights' Codex is eye-bleedingly awful, so would you care to clarify what you mean, or at least spare me the agony of re-reading it with a quotation or a page number?

infinite_array wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

From the Grey Knights Codex, Page 7:

"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through the veil of science or sorcery... thusly armoured, a Grey Knight can wield forbidden sorceries, harness taitned artefacts and scour the pages of blasphemous tomes without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command".

Daemons are Warp-entities, essentially made up of psychic energy. A Pact with a Daemon might give the pact-maker increased power, but there is no 'magic' within the 40k universe, only psychic powers.

This already said on the thread last page.

Nicholas wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Omegus wrote:

biccat wrote:Wow, really, "fanwanking theory"? That's...novel.

The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.

Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure fanwankery.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).

You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?

Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.

Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.

He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.

I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.

Spoiler:

It was to be his greatest work, his Magnum Opus, the undertaking for which he would be forever remembered. Some might consider such sentiment to be vanity on his part, but he knew better. This was a work that would save everything his gene-father had tried to build. Its teachings would form the foundation of what was needed to weather the coming storm.

Selflessness, not pride, guided his hand as he set down decades of accumulated wisdom, each chapter and verse a fragment of his biologically encoded genius, each morsel of imparted knowledge a building block that would combine to form a work immeasurably greater than the sum of its parts. In the wake of the devastation unleashed on Calth, the Legion was looking to him for leadership more than ever. His warriors had suffered a grievous blow to their pride, and desperately needed to see their primogenitor. Helots brought petitions for audiences from his Chapter captains every day, but this endeavour was too important to grant such requests. They did not understand why he sequestered himself away from his sons, but they did not need to understand. All that was required of them was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.

In all his years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice. The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.

The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not.

Yes, that totally sounds like some megalomaniac planning a coup because he disagrees with his father.

Now quit trolling.

Actually, it sounds like he's trying to justify it to himself. In fact it sounds a lot like Magnus.

It's talking about him not him talking, so no.

From the same quoted section of Age of Darkness above:


Guilliman believes his father will understand his decision to betray him. And who knows, maybe he's right.

Omegus wrote:As for the return of the Librarius department, as well as Primaris Psykers and Psyker Battle Squads

Human psykers were not under the jurisdiction of Nikea.

You can't take one word out of an entire quote and take it out of context, yes the word betrayal supports your point, but in the context of the entire quote it does not. He went against what was right for his father in order to help the Imperium which is his father's dream and Guillman knew the Emperor would want his dream to go on without him. If Horus would of won he would not have betrayed the Imperium as his intents were clearly stated in that quote. He made a tactically sound decision and it paid off. If I'm not mistaken the Librarians returned before the Codex came into effect anyway, by the order of Malcador not Guillman.

Nicholas wrote:You can't take one word out of an entire quote and take it out of context, yes the word betrayal supports your point, but in the context of the entire quote it does not. He went against what was right for his father in order to help the Imperium which is his father's dream and Guillman knew the Emperor would want his dream to go on without him.

And that's different from what I said, how exactly? Guilliman is planning to betray the Emperor for the good of the Imperium. If he's not planning to betray the Emperor, then why is he making plans for how the Second Imperium will be organized? Shouldn't that be up to Emperor?

If Horus would of won he would not have betrayed the Imperium as his intents were clearly stated in that quote.

If Horus had won there would have been no Emperor to betray.

If I'm not mistaken the Librarians returned before the Codex came into effect anyway, by the order of Malcador not Guillman.

Source?

Gulliman's motivations are absolutely irrelevant, whether you think he was acting out of his own vanity or complete altruism.

We already know what he ended up doing; refounding the Imperium so humanity could run itself without Space Marine/Primarch interference.

Deeds, not words, clarify what his end goal was.

DarknessEternal wrote:Gulliman's motivations are absolutely irrelevant, whether you think he was acting out of his own vanity or complete altruism.

We already know what he ended up doing; refounding the Imperium so humanity could run itself without Space Marine/Primarch interference.

Deeds, not words, clarify what his end goal was.

Speaking of deeds, there's a couple of things I noticed when I was reading about the Ultramarines and their war games:
1) They aren't fighting Word Bearers.
2) They aren't rushing to Terra to try and help their father.

Ever consider that Guilliman might have been so focused on what would be necessary to set up an Imperium Secundus that he fails to take the actions that could have preserved the Imperium Primus?

And to go OT on a thread that's already OT, is there any reason that nobody has ripped on the Ultras for fighting their wargames with fake ammo? Come on, the jokes write themselves. Back while the trator and loyal legions were tearing each other apart with chainsword and bolt shell, the Ultramarines were playing laser tag with each other. Pick up the slack people!

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Nicholas wrote:You can't take one word out of an entire quote and take it out of context, yes the word betrayal supports your point, but in the context of the entire quote it does not. He went against what was right for his father in order to help the Imperium which is his father's dream and Guillman knew the Emperor would want his dream to go on without him.

And that's different from what I said, how exactly? Guilliman is planning to betray the Emperor for the good of the Imperium. If he's not planning to betray the Emperor, then why is he making plans for how the Second Imperium will be organized? Shouldn't that be up to Emperor?

If Horus would of won he would not have betrayed the Imperium as his intents were clearly stated in that quote.

If Horus had won there would have been no Emperor to betray.

If I'm not mistaken the Librarians returned before the Codex came into effect anyway, by the order of Malcador not Guillman.

Source?

You implied several times he would have attacked the Emperor and the other loyalists if they had won. That that was why he had waited not because he wanted to protect the Imperium proper. So very different, he calls it a betrayal because he feels he is betraying his father by not helping him, not because he is staging some sort of coup de ta.

I said Imperium not Emperor. The point being he wasn't waiting to see who won first.

Unfortunately that was word of mouth, it was more of a question then a statement just bad typing.

daveNYC wrote:
Speaking of deeds, there's a couple of things I noticed when I was reading about the Ultramarines and their war games:
1) They aren't fighting Word Bearers.
2) They aren't rushing to Terra to try and help their father.

1. That battle was long over by this point.
2. Neither were several of the other loyalist legions. Warp storms cut them off from heading to Terra so they were doing what they could in the areas they in which they were isolated. In other news, neither were any of the Chaos legions. It was several years between the dropsite massacre and the siege of terra.

Ah, the whole "I would have tried to help save my father from being killed by the forces of darkness, but it was all the way over in another segmentum and the traffic was horrible." excuse.

I think that's the problem that people have with the story. It shows the Ultramarines planning for what would happen if all the other loyalists failed, and not working to help the other loyalists succeed. Just what would Guilliman have said if the Emperor had won? "Good job on winning pops, I was making plans to cover things if you'd gotten beaten down but you sure pulled it out."

Every family reunion from there on out would have included a formal ritual of punching Guilliman in the junk before every meal.

After Istvaan, the Ruinous Powers had the Warp on complete lock-down. There was no communication and travel was not safe or timely by any stretch of imagination. The Imperial Fist battle-station was basically marooned in space until the Eisenstein blew its warp drives and cleared out some of the storms, allowing it to arrive on Terra.

The Ultramarines are stated (in the highest level of canon, rulebooks and codices) to have arrived right as the battle was already resolved, along with the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels. Their imminent arrival is proposed as one possible reason why Horus took the gamble of lowering his shields to confront the Emperor. Were the Lion and Russ both planning their own individual coups, as well?

We can get as pedantic and obtuse as we want (oh noes, he used the word betrayal so obviously the whole thing was a devious treacherous plot!), but it doesn't change the facts of what happened.

The Dark Angels arrived late for the Battle of Terra, and proceeded to return home, found half their Legion gone bad, and became catatonic until the Second Founding.

The Space Wolves arrived late for the Battle of Terra, and proceeded to hound the Thousand Sons, the smallest and arguably least dangerous Legion, for the next few centuries.

The Ultramarines arrived late for the Battle of Terra, and proceeded to scour the Imperium of the traitor remnants, ensured another insurrection on such a scale could not occur, and set up the administration that keeps the Imperium together to this day.

Nicholas wrote:You implied several times he would have attacked the Emperor and the other loyalists if they had won.

Only if they refuse to go along with his Imperium Secundus. Note that this is not complete speculation. He actually does issue an ultimatum to the Imperial Fists to disband their legion or face the consequences.

So very different, he calls it a betrayal because he feels he is betraying his father by not helping him, not because he is staging some sort of coup de ta.

I said Imperium not Emperor. The point being he wasn't waiting to see who won first.

He is holding his legion back on Ultramar, conserving their strength and preparing them to fight the other Legions, so that when he advances on Terra he will be able to implement his new order by force if necessary and none will be able to stop him. For the good of the Imperium of course.

DarknessEternal wrote:

daveNYC wrote:
Speaking of deeds, there's a couple of things I noticed when I was reading about the Ultramarines and their war games:
1) They aren't fighting Word Bearers.
2) They aren't rushing to Terra to try and help their father.

1. That battle was long over by this point.
2. Neither were several of the other loyalist legions. Warp storms cut them off from heading to Terra so they were doing what they could in the areas they in which they were isolated. In other news, neither were any of the Chaos legions. It was several years between the dropsite massacre and the siege of terra.

The Dark Angels were fighting the Night Lords on the Eastern Fringe. The Space Wolves and White Scars were fighting the Alpha Legion while trying to get to Terra. The Ultramarines were hanging back on Ultramar conserving their strength while MAKING PREPARATIONS TO FIGHT THE OTHER LOYALISTS.

daveNYC wrote:I think that's the problem that people have with the story. It shows the Ultramarines planning for what would happen if all the other loyalists failed, and not working to help the other loyalists succeed. Just what would Guilliman have said if the Emperor had won? "Good job on winning pops, I was making plans to cover things if you'd gotten beaten down but you sure pulled it out."

This. He is planning on overthrowing the Emperor so that the Emperor's dream (i.e. the Imperium) will survive. Guilliman believes his Second Imperium will succeed where the Emperor's First Imperium failed. Guilliman knows the Emperor will understand. Because up until this point the Emperor has been nothing if not understanding- just ask Lorgar and Magnus.

But seriously, the Emperor would understand. This is because Guilliman is doing exactly what the Emperor would do were the roles reversed. It's stated in The First Heretic that of all the primarchs Guilliman most resembles the Emperor in character. And the Emperor is nothing if not ruthless - he would do absolutely anything to ensure the survival of the Imperium of Man. And so would Guilliman - even if it means betraying his father.

Now just because the Emperor would understand doesn't mean he would just lie down and let Guilliman have his way. Afterall, the other two defining characteristics of the Emperor are hubris and megalomania.

It clearly stated his intentions in the previous quote and it is not what you are saying it is. You took one word out of context and used it as proof I am done arguing this as your theory has been refuted by canon fluff.

To answer OP we will have to wait until the Heresy series is finished most likely to find out how this happened.

Omegus wrote:

biccat wrote:Wow, really, "fanwanking theory"? That's...novel.

The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.

Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure fanwankery.

Russ himself stated that Prospero wasn't the first time Marine fought Marine. Sounds like he had some presonal knowledge of that.

Also, Russ was more than willing to go off and fight his brother marines on the second-hand word from Horus. He never thought "holy crap, this goes against everything that is right, I should check with the Emperor!" He had no doubts, unlike every other marine or Primarch that raised his hand against his brother.

You can accept the established fluff at face value, or you can read between the lines and see that the Imperium isn't all unicorns and glitter. The conflict in 40k is between "Chaos" and "Order," not "Good" and "Evil." In many ways, the Imperium engages in great evil.

Omegus wrote:After Istvaan, the Ruinous Powers had the Warp on complete lock-down. There was no communication and travel was not safe or timely by any stretch of imagination. The Imperial Fist battle-station was basically marooned in space until the Eisenstein blew its warp drives and cleared out some of the storms, allowing it to arrive on Terra.

The Ultramarines are stated (in the highest level of canon, rulebooks and codices) to have arrived right as the battle was already resolved, along with the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels. Their imminent arrival is proposed as one possible reason why Horus took the gamble of lowering his shields to confront the Emperor. Were the Lion and Russ both planning their own individual coups, as well?

I'm not saying that Guilliman was planning on stabbing the Emperor in the back. Seriously, no snark at all there. However, the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were both fighting traitor legions, which is part of why they were late. The Ultramarines were playing wargames with each other as they worked out how best to kill Salamanders (all twenty of them that were still alive at that point). It's one thing to plan for failure, it's another thing entirely when your planning for failure ends up ensuring failure. In other words, if the Ultramarines arrived too late, then maybe they should have started the trip earlier.

biccat wrote:Also, Russ was more than willing to go off and fight his brother marines on the second-hand word from Horus. He never thought "holy crap, this goes against everything that is right, I should check with the Emperor!" He had no doubts, unlike every other marine or Primarch that raised his hand against his brother.

Curze almost killed Dorn long before the Heresy over a disagreement. Russ has a history of trying to pick fights with his brothers, and had a personal vendetta against Magnus.

Just a quick comment, I read throughout this pretty quick and didn't hear anything about Black Templars, who as far as I am concerned are the only true followers of what the Emperor put forth, no Librarians for they are the Witch and we will abolish the witch where ever found.

So on a previous note the guys in Black know what's best, shoot the guys in blue(which could mean ultramarines, but it's the same equalivent)

Nicholas wrote:It clearly stated his intentions in the previous quote and it is not what you are saying it is.

What do you think I'm saying his intentions are? It's pretty clear from the quote that his intentions are to save the Imperium through betrayal.

You took one word out of context and used it as proof I am done arguing this as your theory has been refuted by canon fluff.

How? Age of Darkness certainly seems to imply that he's hanging back and preparing for the moment when he can step in and impose his new order after the dust has cleared. And that's exactly what he does in the canon fluff.

I disagree with your basic assumption that the Emperor would object to his plans. The Emperor wasn't omniscient, and he tended to trust his sons for the most part to be autonomous. Guilliman was clearly the superior administrator, and described as most like his father in temperament, so it's more likely the Emperor would not only understand, but approve as well.

‘I have a plan, yes, and it is a dangerous one, too dangerous to divulge for the moment. But when the time comes to put it into action, I must ask you all to trust me as never before. When that time comes, you will be called traitors, cowards and faithless weaklings, but nothing could be further from the truth. I can see no hope in the times ahead for the Imperium as we know it, and that is why I had you fight these mock engagements. However this war plays out, it is inevitable that you will need to fight warriors you count as brothers. Perhaps even those who currently stand in opposition to the Warmaster.’

The way I read the short story, Guilliman acknowledges that his actions may be seen as treasonous, but such an interpretation would only be made by lesser minds that can't grasp the full scope of what's at stake and what he's trying to accomplish. That's far from the mustache-twirling, "muahahaha, I know best and I will force my vision upon the galaxy, muahahahaha!" villain you painted him as in your original posts on the subject.

The Emperor was all about enlightenment and truth, yet Dorn and the Sigilite oversaw the creation of the Inquisition, as well as the policy of ruthlessly squashing the truth "for the good of the Imperium" (read The Last Remembrancer). Were they also traitors?

Omegus wrote:I disagree with your basic assumption that the Emperor would object to his plans. The Emperor wasn't omniscient, and he tended to trust his sons for the most part to be autonomous. Guilliman was clearly the superior administrator, and described as most like his father in temperament, so it's more likely the Emperor would not only understand, but approve as well.

Well I guess that depends on whether or not Guilliman's plans allow for the Emperor to remain as the undisputed master of the Imperium. The Emperor doesn't seem like the kind of guy to gracefully step aside. And the story of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy is rife with examples of primarchs disobeying their father's stated commandments under the assumption that he would understand and approve, only to find, nope I was wrong, oh crap here come the custodes.

The way I read the short story, Guilliman acknowledges that his actions may be seen as treasonous, but such an interpretation would only be made by lesser minds that can't grasp the full scope of what's at stake and what he's trying to accomplish.

It's called hubris. And it seems to be a common failing in the Emperor and his progeny.

That's far from the mustache-twirling, "muahahaha, I know best and I will force my vision upon the galaxy, muahahahaha!" villain you painted him as in your original posts on the subject.

I never meant to imply he was a "villian". "Mustache-twirling" is always a pisspoor motivation for an antagonist. That's why ADB is awesome and Ben Counter is a hack.

Besides, good is a point of view. Guilliman is trying to force his vision upon the galaxy, like the Emperor before him. Guilliman's motivations are the same as the Emperor's. But here's the point - loyalty to the Emperor is not one of them. Guilliman sees that the Emperor has failed. So now he is assuming the role previously played by the Emperor. Guilliman believes that now only he has the vision to guide humanity along the razor's edge and save them from extinction. This is of course exactly what the Emperor believed, and we see how well that turned out.

The Emperor was all about enlightenment and truth, yet Dorn and the Sigilite oversaw the creation of the Inquisition, as well as the policy of ruthlessly squashing the truth "for the good of the Imperium" (read The Last Remembrancer). Were they also traitors?

But the Emperor was not all about enlightenment and truth. The whole point of Nikaea was to stop Magnus from discovering the truth - that the Imperial Truth was a lie from the very beginning. This is what Dorn realizes in the The Last Remembrancer. But he still remains loyal to the Emperor. So while Guilliman's loyalty is to a dream built on lies, Dorn's loyalty lies with the liar who dreamt it.

This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.

Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:

Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.

No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.