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You could argue that the runes used by the Rune Priests have some kind of power (Similar to the process used in making GK power armour) which helps them keep safe during their general Psychikery.

Runes aren't their only source of power. They still use the Warp when conjuring storms or lightning during battle. I agree that their methods are different, so the Wolves have it safer, but their ways are stooped in the tribal beliefs of the native Fenrisians. Borderline Heresy for a group of Space Marines.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Srsly though, every ant with a meager soul worth eating is connected in someway to the warp.. With Runes, its a practice you can connect to the warp, but they aren't the same as reaching into the warp! Its a practice that circumvents the dangers of warp tampering by using runes to knock out "spells" in 40K, the wolves use the "safe" version while the Sons use the "hook me up to a battery and see what happens" version of magic.

While you could call them both heresy think of it like this... The IoM uses the warp to travel.. does that make them followers of the Chaos Gods? No. Yet the warp is a tool they use in a certain capacity, the wolves/sons used the warp in two very different ways and the sons ended up paying for it.

No. Just... no.
One: The Wolves don't just use runes for their powers, actual physical rune use seems to be limited to telling the future and the like (basically a local variation on the Emperor's Tarot). Calling storms and throwing lightning is done by the more traditional technique of waving the arms around and looking mean, maybe yelling too.
Two: Anything involving magic in 40k involves the warp, and anything involving the warp is dangerous. Has to be dangerous. The whole 40k setting falls flat on it's face if there is any way to safely tap into the warp. If that happens, then you lose all the tension between the necessity of psykers for warp travel and FTL communication, and the fact that they're all a bunch of walking timebombs. The fact that the warp is absolutely necessary for the continued existance of the Imperium, and at the same time it's greatest threat is a core foundation to the story. Attempting to give the Space Wolves 'safe' rune based magic, in addition to dialing the Mary-Sue up to eleven, strikes a mortal blow to the core of the setting.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Runes conjure magics based on etching.

Warp based magic is tapped from the warp itself, in fantasy they are the difference between real magic and fake magic (Elves - Dwarves).

In 40K they are the difference between heresy and w/e. (Sons - Wolves)

Fantasy and 40K have nothing to do with one another. There is no such thing as "magics based on etching" in 40K, everything stems from the Warp. The closest thing would be Enuncia, and that's probably even more heretical than daemonic pacts.

Everything about Space Wolves' not using the warp to do psyker stuff is, of course, directly contradicted by A Thousand Sons. They use the warp to power their Librarian goodness, same as everybody else, and runes have nothing to do with it.

I think the big E got mad at the 1k son's because of the use of the beings they used to boost their powers.(Can't remember their names been some time since reading the book) He probably saw how close to daemon craft it was and got to the point of "That's no good Lucy" so stopped it. Which in the end he was right because in the final fight in A Thousand Sons they posses a large portion of the sons and go on a wolf killing spree. Yet, no matter what the wolves say they still used the warp.

This is a problem, isn't it?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/206403.page

Basically, we'll have to see how they 'fix' this somewhere down the line in the HH series or in The Scourging series.

Or, if they just pretend it didn't happen/ignore it and move right along...

It's easy enough to re-allow librarians. Here is the scene, Horus is dead and the Emperor is being installed on the Golden Throne. The Emperor is giving instructions on how to modify the throne as he's dieing, but his voice starts to fade out. Last thing he says is for Dorn to go grab a psyker from someplace to allow him to continue to communicate. Dorn shows up with an ex-librarian. The Throne gets built, and one of the last messages from the Emperor is for Dorn and crew to use every tool available (wink-wink, nudge-nudge) to perserve the Imperium. Bonus points if it becomes a sticking point for the adoption of the Codes Astartes, with Dorn forcing Guilliman to add librarians back in there because 'That's what dad would have wanted.'

There's not so much they can do to re-retcon the story of the Thousand Sons to make it look like they weren't setup and sold out by Horus, Russ, Valdor, and the Primordial Annihilator.

jakejackel3 wrote:I think the big E got mad at the 1k son's because of the use of the beings they used to boost their powers.(Can't remember their names been some time since reading the book) He probably saw how close to daemon craft it was and got to the point of "That's no good Lucy" so stopped it. Which in the end he was right because in the final fight in A Thousand Sons they posses a large portion of the sons and go on a wolf killing spree. Yet, no matter what the wolves say they still used the warp.

Tutelaries?

If they were the reason the Emperor banned Librarians, that is sure as hell not the reason he gave.

He basically just said "I should have never told Magnus about the Warp now do what I say or I'll kill you."

He seems to expect mindless obedience on the part of his sons.

squidhills wrote:It is for the same reason that Chaplains wear black: so that they will be inherantly more awesome than the guy in blue, and thus the purity of the Chapter is assured.

This if QFT and is now my signature.

Omegus wrote:

purplefood wrote:Though it has been said the Emperor specifically said Librarians which the Rune Priests were not so... RaW over RaI?

ROFL, that is hilarious.

But yeah, basically that's what it amounted to. The Space Wolves didn't believe they used psychic powers or the Warp, but rather some vague jibberjabber about the cycle of life and death of Fenris or whatever. However, the ritualistic and ward-based practices of the Wolves do seem to be a somewhat "safer" way to channel the Warp.

actually,like the 'nids wwho do not wield warp power,i think they didnt either,in game terms its just simplier to use the rules for psykers than give them their own rules.fails could be the wolves saying NO or some like that

squidhills wrote:Librarians were banned from Marine Chapters until Rowboat Girlyman wrote up the Codex Astartes with the compromise ruling that said all psykers must wear a tragically un-hip shade of blue.

This prevented Librarians from cool Chapters from looking cool, as they are the only goofball in the army wearing blue, so all the SM enemies know which guy to shoot at the most. Also, the Ruinous Powers are not attracted to psykers with such poor fashion sense, so SM Librarians no longer had to fear daemonic possesion, as long as they wore blue.

It is for the same reason that Chaplains wear black: so that they will be inherantly more awesome than the guy in blue, and thus the purity of the Chapter is assured.

This is why the Grey Knights are so obviously a Radical Faction now; they are psykers that don't wear blue. If they wore blue, they would not be so quick to use daemon weapons or consort with xenos.

They also wouldn't need to Exterminatus every sorry fether who saw them, because everyone would assume they were Ultramarines.

I lol'd so hard.

I wish i could fit this into my signature lol

im save this asd favourits

This is absolutely the worst fluff screw up so far, which is saying a lot for GW. It requires complicated mental gymnastics to explain how the Emperor banned librarians and not just sorcerers, then changed his mind later. Worse, it completely misses the point of the old version, to illustrate starkly the difference between sorcery and psychic powers, which otherwise is unclear.

At this point I just carry my own self-consistent version of the fluff in my head and ignore new codices and most novels. The saving grace of this clunky game has always been the setting, but it really takes away from the universe when nothing makes any damn sense at all.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:This is absolutely the worst fluff screw up so far, which is saying a lot for GW.

Ah, but things like these are not GW's fault at all. Well, only insofar as that BL is not enforcing stricter continuity.

"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
- Andy Hoare

"If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the game world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books."
- Gav Thorpe

"I’ve read 40K novels that categorically violate my opinions and perceptions of how 40K works, and I have no trouble ignoring them afterwards."
- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

This whole retcon stems from the Horus Heresy art book, which was done by Alan Merrett, the current overseer of GW's IP. I assume if anyone holds at least some responsibility to make sure everything makes sense, it's him.

Authors write novels or fluff that I disagree with often enough, and I have no problem with it. The problem is not that a major fluff error was introduced in some art book. The problem is that this major error came from the source of all fluff, then was embraced and allowed to proliferate across the Horus Heresy series. Considering how the Horus Heresy series has been influencing recent codices, it will probably be canon soon if it isn't already. That's why it's GW's screw up - they were basically the source and the error was not rectified when they had the chance.

Ahh, yes, if it's flowing back into actual GW Codices that makes it a bit more tricky.

There may still be a chance that this doesn't happen, as I'm sure the actual IP creation process at GW involves more than one employee - and even though Merrett may be in a position where his word is law, he likely values the opinions of colleagues who point out conflicts with earlier material.
It's possible (even likely) that the team working on the art book was much smaller and/or included different writers and so an unintentional mistake was made.

But I would not bet any money on that.

squidhills wrote:Librarians were banned from Marine Chapters until Rowboat Girlyman wrote up the Codex Astartes with the compromise ruling that said all psykers must wear a tragically un-hip shade of blue.

This prevented Librarians from cool Chapters from looking cool, as they are the only goofball in the army wearing blue, so all the SM enemies know which guy to shoot at the most. Also, the Ruinous Powers are not attracted to psykers with such poor fashion sense, so SM Librarians no longer had to fear daemonic possesion, as long as they wore blue.

It is for the same reason that Chaplains wear black: so that they will be inherantly more awesome than the guy in blue, and thus the purity of the Chapter is assured.

This is why the Grey Knights are so obviously a Radical Faction now; they are psykers that don't wear blue. If they wore blue, they would not be so quick to use daemon weapons or consort with xenos.

They also wouldn't need to Exterminatus every sorry fether who saw them, because everyone would assume they were Ultramarines.

This completely logical XD
I am laughing so hard at this.

There's no good evidence to assume that the Space Wolves' psykers - beyond their Fenrisian window-dressing - are substantively different from any other chapters', much less any plausible reason to conclude that they are in fact very tall Dwarven runesmiths in space.

Games Workshop (or rather Black Library) have confused matters, but will doubtless clear them up in a future Horus Heresy novel; odds are it will hinge upon a clearer canonical distinction between 'sorcery' and 'pyschics'.

English Assassin wrote:There's no good evidence to assume that the Space Wolves' psykers - beyond their Fenrisian window-dressing - are substantively different from any other chapters', much less any plausible reason to conclude that they are in fact very tall Dwarven runesmiths in space.

Games Workshop (or rather Black Library) have confused matters, but will doubtless clear them up in a future Horus Heresy novel; odds are it will hinge upon a clearer canonical distinction between 'sorcery' and 'pyschics'.

I firmly draw a solid link between the two for a love of ale and beards.

Oh and Rune Magick.

Omegus wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Runes conjure magics based on etching.

Warp based magic is tapped from the warp itself, in fantasy they are the difference between real magic and fake magic (Elves - Dwarves).

In 40K they are the difference between heresy and w/e. (Sons - Wolves)

Fantasy and 40K have nothing to do with one another. There is no such thing as "magics based on etching" in 40K, everything stems from the Warp. The closest thing would be Enuncia, and that's probably even more heretical than daemonic pacts.

I've always looked at it like this. All normal psychers reach into the warp with their bare hands and grab the hot coals of magic. Space Wolf runes act as a small barrier, ie they drenched their hands in ice water first.

The protection of runes has been recorded in official doctrine, as such it does exist. But that doesn't mean using the warp is any safer for their Rune Priests when push comes to shove.

Jayden63 wrote:The protection of runes has been recorded in official doctrine, as such it does exist. But that doesn't mean using the warp is any safer for their Rune Priests when push comes to shove.

Where has this actually been stated? The tone of Warhammer 40,000's fluff has always led me to the implication that runes, mystical sigils, invocations to the emperor and the like are at best aids to concentration, and at worst the crass superstitions of those who can only repeat by rote that which they do not truly understand, not things which grant power in their own right.

I would think by now it would be glaringly obvious how this is going to end up playing out. Which legions do we know for sure utilized librarians before Nikaea? Thousand Sons, Night Lords, Salamanders, Dark Angels, White Scars, Blood Angels, Emperor's Children, Word Bearers and ULTRAMARINES. And who basically takes over the Imperium after the Emperor is good and incapacitated? GUILLIMAN.

The judgement of Nikaea went against Guilliman's faction, but why wouldn't he just turn around and reverse it as soon as there's no one left to stop him? Does he seem like the kind of guy who is going to stop doing something his way just because the Emperor told him not to? Afterall, the Emperor decreed that the Astartes would fight as legions and Guilliman goes ahead and does away with that too. I mean he practically threatens to destroy the Imperial Fists when Dorn refuses to do as he's told and adopt the Codex (ref Iron Cage). Now we know that Dorn, Corax, Mortarion and Russ were all vehemently opposed to the use of librarians; Dorn and Corax even refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons because of this. But look at the Imperial Fists in M41 - they have librarians. So what would have caused Dorn to do a complete 180 and adopt librarians? The Codex of course. And this is why Black Templars, who never adopted the Codex, don't have librarians.

So I think librarians are going to end up being reintroduced by Guilliman after he takes over the Imperium. You know... because he's a traitor.

well said he is healing because Nurgle says so.

Yes, saving the Imperium is treachery.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:You know... because he's a traitor.

People don't seem to understand that those guys who said that were just playing the traitors in the wargame. It wasn't enormous deal.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:You know... because he's a traitor.

People don't seem to understand that those guys who said that were just playing the traitors in the wargame. It wasn't enormous deal.

I don't think that's what he is talking about, I guess he's talking about the whole Imperium part 2 thing that Guilliman has going on.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:You know... because he's a traitor.

People don't seem to understand that those guys who said that were just playing the traitors in the wargame. It wasn't enormous deal.

They're not only training to fight Horus' forces, but the loyal ones as well, no doubt in the expectation that they very well may end up at war with them when Guilliman makes his power play. And judging by Dorn's reaction this wasn't an unrealistic expectation.

It seems to imply that Guilliman is waiting for a winner to emerge before he steps in and imposes his vision for the "Second Imperium" - a radical new order in which the power of the primarchs and their legions is broken.

To his credit, he doesn't install himself as the "Second Emperor" (though it remains to be seen whether this is due to his magnanimity or simply the Emperor's inconvenient failure to actually die), but his new order does result in his legion (or more accurately its successor chapters) becoming the predominant Astartes, surpassing all others by an order of magnitude. Go figure.

i wouldn't mind that if they actually DID something in the Heresy instead of sitting and generally being lazy s

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:It seems to imply that Guilliman is waiting for a winner to emerge before he steps in and imposes his vision for the "Second Imperium" - a radical new order in which the power of the primarchs and their legions is broken.

Reposted from another thread:

Regarding the Imperium Secundus, he was preparing for every eventuality. There were two possible outcomes of the Heresy:

1.) Loyalist forces win. Both sides will be diminished, and someone will have to keep order as well as chase the remnant traitor forces out of the galaxy. AKA The Scouring AKA "What Actually Happened"
2.) The traitors win. The war is not over, however, with the Ultramarines holding a large portion of the galaxy where the dreams and ideals of the Imperium (prosperity, enlightenment, etc.) can survive. AKA what also sort of happened