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daveNYC wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Beceause its been well established that Marines are nothing if not abhorrent to change. If something has been done for 10000 years, well thats good enough. No reason to learn something new.

Rune Priests and the people are Fenris are steeped in tradition since before the foundings. They themselves have been doing it the same way 10000 years.

And yes. Since I'm no longer 12, pay insurance premiums, and am a concerned, educated member of a community. #2 is not the proper way to light a fire.

I wasn't suggesting the Wolves change. If Rune Priests weren't covered by Nikea, then the Wolves wouldn't have had to change. It would be the other legions that could have changed to have their psyker practices reflect that of the Rune Priests. And at the point in time we're talking about, no legion had been doing anything for 10,000 years, not to mention that the extreme hidebound nature of all the elements of the Imperium is a characteristic of the post-heresy Imperium. The Great Crusade Imperium was far less pants-on-head.

Your inability to detect snark is well matched by your lack of a sense of humor.

I realize that no one was saying that the Rune Priests had to change. I was talking about the other Librarians. However, when you've spent a lifetime doing one thing then someone says... you can accomplish the same thing provided you honestly believe that the wind smells like purple. Change can be difficult. I think the Emperor in his wisdom realized that change wouldn't happen, and so he must just put the current librarian system on a much tighter leash to protect themselves as much as everyone else.

As for snark and humor... have you read most of the posts in this thread? Kinda hard to tell without proper use of the orks on the left side of of text edit box. However, if what you were talking about is the "how to build a fire"... I work with boy scouts. And yeah... some genuinely believe that #2 fire starting is the right method. Scary really. My bad on that for not putting in my own smiling ork.

Brother Ramses wrote:Said human is not being mentally manipulated by the Wolves. He has pretty much been the Primordial Annihilator's meat puppet since he was a child. The Wolves even talk of killing him since they still do not know how much of a conduit or threat he remains to be and instead choose to have him put in stasis.

The Wolves surgically alter him and somehow reeducate him. He knows thier language. How?
The Rune Priest guides him in those 'dream walk' thing-a-ma-chigs. Why did he guide him?
So he would only know the things the Wolves wanted him to know. So he would only see what the Wolves wanted him to see.
How could you possible think he wasn't manipulated?

Brother Ramses wrote:Remember, Kasper was not a tool of the Wolves, he was a tool of the Primordial Annihilator.

Yes, he was a tool of the Primordial Annihilator. But he also was a tool for the Wolves. Otherwise they would have killed him. There is no other reason to keep him alive.

They have him put in stasis because he is the only outsider that knows the Wolves were manipulated like 2-year-olds into doing Chaos' dirty work, and they hate to admit it. That's why they pretend nothing happened and continue hounding the TS for the next few millennia. So much for "recognizing their failing and striving to correct it."

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:In comparison, the retcon is full of holes. Now the Emperor, or someone with sufficient authority, has to reverse the Council of Nikea decision, where previously it was said that the decree still stood in M41. Just one more arbitrary and short-sighted mistake on the Emperor's part, added to a growing list that's piling up in this Horus Heresy series.

I believe in the Salamander series one of the Marines Malevolent states that "some of us still adhere to the tenets of Nikaea" and one of the Salamanders declares the Marines Malevolent "worse than Black Templars". Everything I've read seems to imply that the decree was never reversed, but by M41 most consider it to be outdated. I think this fits in with the theory that it is Guilliman, not the Emperor, who ultimately does away with it and reintroduces librarians.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Worse, the distinction between psychic talent and using arcane lore to achieve your goals is being blurred, as evidenced by the Mat Ward-ing of the Grey Knight codex:

"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through the veil of science or sorcery... thusly armoured, a Grey Knight can wield forbidden sorceries, harness taitned artefacts and scour the pages of blasphemous tomes without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command".

Of course there's no friggin' magic in the 41st Millennium! There's still a big difference between what a Grey Knight psyker does and what a Chaos cultist non-psyker does when they draw on the warp. It's a much bigger difference than the observer's "view". If you don't explain that to people, if you casually drop it from the fluff, then the whole psyker schtick stops making any sort of sense. If you call on an arcane spell, but you have good intentions and believe in science, you're safe? If you do the same thing, but you're thinking naughty thoughts, you're overwhelmed with cursed power? So there's no distinction between a cult using a forbidden ritual to open a door to the warp, and a psyker doing the same thing with innate power and a disciplined mind so their squad can teleport across the battlefield?

Sorry for the rant, but this is all a major screw-up. The older fluff fit together, while this new stuff seems very poorly thought out.

I think the new fluff is more grimdark. If the distinction between psychic powers and sorcery only exists in your mind, you'd better have a really strong mind if you're going to use them. It shows what a fine line librarians walk.

Brother Ramses wrote:I think one of the major keys here seems to be the Emperor's own words at the Council.

He specifically pointed out that seeking knowledge as a shortcut to power without first gaining wisdom being the crux of his problem with Magnus. The Emperor places his own path as how much he has sought in his search for knowledge and the wisdom that he has had to earn through those experiences. And that while he has been capable of the quest for power through knowledge, he has also gained the wisdom as to what to do with said power.

The ironic part is that the Emperor is basically guilty of the same thing. "You do not have the wisdom to use such powerful knowledge! Only I have the grand vision to harness the powers of the Warp to create the primarchs and guide humanity in to a new golden age! Oh, hello Horus... do you have a present for your dear old dad? Oops - I guess I'm a toaster oven now."

English Assassin wrote:It's also rather questionable that the Librarius was necessarily exclusively Magnus' creation: there was a Terran Librarian among the Dark Angels who, in the early days of the crusade, found Jonson. Whether the Space Wolves likewise had a Librarius prior (or indeed subsequent) to the rediscovery of Russ is thus an open question, not the closed issue you declare it.

It seems that though Jonson was the first primarch created (tube #1) he was actually one of the later ones to be discovered. We know that at the very least the Khan was found before Jonson. On the other hand, we know that Magnus was with the Emperor when he discovered Lorgar, who in turn had interactions with the other primarchs on Terra in the early years of the Crusade. Also, Monarchia happened a good 50(?) some odd years before the Heresy. So it's entirely possible that Magnus had introduced librarians to the First Legion before the discovery of Jonson.

I agree with their being no distinction between psyker and sorcerer, being more grimdark. Even the good guys risk their souls simply by existing.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:In comparison, the retcon is full of holes. Now the Emperor, or someone with sufficient authority, has to reverse the Council of Nikea decision, where previously it was said that the decree still stood in M41. Just one more arbitrary and short-sighted mistake on the Emperor's part, added to a growing list that's piling up in this Horus Heresy series.

I believe in the Salamander series one of the Marines Malevolent states that "some of us still adhere to the tenets of Nikaea" and one of the Salamanders declares the Marines Malevolent "worse than Black Templars". Everything I've read seems to imply that the decree was never reversed, but by M41 most consider it to be outdated.

BY M41?

Try by M31 or earlier!

Nicholas wrote:I agree with their being no distinction between psyker and sorcerer, being more grimdark. Even the good guys risk their souls simply by existing.

In my opinion, it was a mistake to do away with this distinction because it clearly does exist, and has only served to muddy the waters and screw up the background that was already quite good.

Oh, and it actually made sense too!

I too feel that it was sacrificed, along with internal story logic and common sense, all in the name of Extra Grimdark.

I personally think it was Rowboat finding a convienient loophole in the Edict.


the Edict said that the "Legions shall disband their Librarians"

Chapters are NOT Legions, and by dint of that may have a Librarians.