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Brother Ramses wrote:This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.

Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:

Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.

No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.

I'll put it this way, the ruling at Nikea was about as well written as the rules for the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon.

daveNYC wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.

Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:

Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.

No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.

I'll put it this way, the ruling at Nikea was about as well written as the rules for the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon.

Pretty much.

However to say that rune priests are librarians because both use psychic powers is wrong. They are separate entities with individual differences in fluff and rules.

Ah, your ban must have expired. And back to your old tricks of resorting to personal attacks because your hare-brained theories don't stand up to the cited material. Your mother must be so proud.

iproxtaco wrote:There is no fluff currently as to what The Emperor did to reinstate Librarians. The Grey Knights, all Psykers, were created on his authority, so it's obvious that he had no problem after The Heresy broke out. Why he did it is easy. The point of Nikea was to stop Librarians from straying too far in their studies of The Warp and discovering Chaos, Magnus and his Thousand Sons in particular were the prime perpetrators. Magnus having already contacted Tzeentch, although he had no idea it was a Chaos God. Once the HH started and Chaos showed itself, Daemons coming from the Warp, attacking Terra, there was no reason to keep it hidden. Why would you not allow the use of a potent weapon when the secret you sought to protect against has been revealed? Necessity caused The Emperor to act.

best answer through out this topic.

Brother Ramses wrote:This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.

Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:

Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.

No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.

Beginning with ad hominem attacks is seldom the sign of a strong argument. It is hard to deny that Rune Priests are Space Marines, and that they are psykers; they have (under 5th edition) a different list of powers, but then so do the Blood Angels. Unless you can find canonical statements to the contrary, the conclusion requiring the fewest assumptions is that the difference, as with the White Scars' Storm Seers, is one of the legions' nomenclature, not the psykers' nature.

In that light it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the Emperor didn't care what individual legions called their Librarians, and used the term generically. Certainly his proscription, framed in terms sufficiently broad that astropaths and navigators had to be specifically excluded from it, would appear to be one against the use of psychic powers by the legions, not against the particulars of their organisation.

English Assassin wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.

Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:

Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.

No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.

Beginning with ad hominem attacks is seldom the sign of a strong argument. It is hard to deny that Rune Priests are Space Marines, and that they are psykers; they have (under 5th edition) a different list of powers, but then so do the Blood Angels. Unless you can find canonical statements to the contrary, the conclusion requiring the fewest assumptions is that the difference, as with the White Scars' Storm Seers, is one of the legions' nomenclature, not the psykers' nature.

In that light it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the Emperor didn't care what individual legions called their Librarians, and used the term generically. Certainly his proscription, framed in terms sufficiently broad that astropaths and navigators had to be specifically excluded from it, would appear to be one against the use of psychic powers by the legions, not against the particulars of their organisation.

I think the difference is that while the White Scars believed their Storm Seers to be psykers and analogous to librarians, the Space Wolves did not believe the same for their Rune Priests. Of course the distinction is complete tripe and only exists in the minds of the Space Wolves, but there you have it. So when the Emperor says "no more psychic powers" the Space Wolves continue to use them because they honestly do not believe they are doing so.

RAW vs RAI. Space Wolves are RAW rules lawyers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:This isn't the first time that Omegus has cried out his Ultrafanboism and Space Wolve hate bias. It is his way of crying out that no one else is a special snowflake like the Ultras. I digress however.

Lets look at exactly what the Council of Nikea in A Thousand Sons addressed:

Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

As much as whining babies want to try and connect, rune priests are not Librarians. Librarians are a completely different element then rune priests. This has been established from Index Astartes articles, fluff, equipment, and even gameplay. Many want to say that they are the same thing so thus fall under the edict, but that is not what the edict states.

No matter how much some specific people hate it, the rune priests were under no obligation to disband or stop doing what they were doing per the edict set by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea.

Beginning with ad hominem attacks is seldom the sign of a strong argument. It is hard to deny that Rune Priests are Space Marines, and that they are psykers; they have (under 5th edition) a different list of powers, but then so do the Blood Angels. Unless you can find canonical statements to the contrary, the conclusion requiring the fewest assumptions is that the difference, as with the White Scars' Storm Seers, is one of the legions' nomenclature, not the psykers' nature.

In that light it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the Emperor didn't care what individual legions called their Librarians, and used the term generically. Certainly his proscription, framed in terms sufficiently broad that astropaths and navigators had to be specifically excluded from it, would appear to be one against the use of psychic powers by the legions, not against the particulars of their organisation.

Considering the I already provided Omegus with Index Astartes articles detailing the difference between librarians and runes priests as well as the difference in their founding to which he pretty much replied, "those are old articles so don't count" there is only one conclusion that you can draw which is exactly what I did.

You only mention the difference in psychic powers not being enough as you then point out Blood Angels powers being different as well. How about you address no psychic hoods on rune priests? How about addressing that rune priests instead have a runic staff/weapon that negates psychic powers completely different from any SM librarian and is a force weapon that also wounds daemons on a 2+?

The simple fact is that rune priests are NOT librarians. Librarians are a product of Magnus' grand dream for humanity. Librarians are a product of the Libraium, founded primarily by Magnus, trained by Magnus and his Thousand Sons. Rune Priests are a product of the Fenrisian shamanistic culture, NOT Magnus or his Libraium program. Per A Thousand Sons,

Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

Did the Space Wolves ever have a Librarius department? No. Did the Space Wolves ever have warrior and instructors of said Librarius department? No. So what exactly were the Space Wolves to disband and send back to the battle companies?

The retcon has shifted from the unclear banning of boogity boogity sorcery and placed the decree squarely on Magnus' creation(s). The retcon is now a matter of the fruit of the poisoned tree metaphor; Magnus is accused of sorcery hence all he has had his hand in is also poisoned.

Brother Ramses wrote:
The retcon has shifted from the unclear banning of boogity boogity sorcery and placed the decree squarely on Magnus' creation(s). The retcon is now a matter of the fruit of the poisoned tree metaphor; Magnus is accused of sorcery hence all he has had his hand in is also poisoned.

This does sort of make sense, although like I said, it requires some mental gymnastics to arrive at this point.

The old, old fluff was fairly clear - psykers train themselves to channel the warp, sorcery calls on warp entities to grant power. A psyker can also use sorcery, but even non-psykers can engage in sorcery, which is the key distinction. Sorcery requires no inherent talent or ability, only forbidden knowledge. It gives the illusion of control over dangerous entities that will inevitably seek to corrupt or betray you.

So Magnus and his legion routinely called on daemon familiars and forbidden lore, and the Emperor put his foot down. Whether he did this by banning sorcery or by banning Librarians has approximately the same effect: Magnus and his legion had to stop using their powers, which were primarily sorcery-based, and the Librarians in other chapters had to stop employing the training they received from the Thousand Sons. Either way the Space Wolves are exempt - they did not practice sorcery and received no Librarian training. So that is wrapped up, albeit awkwardly.

The real problem is that the old version of the fluff provides a coherent structure, a thread that runs through many other aspects of the game. That key distinction I mentioned earlier is the hinge upon which basically all the warp powers in 40k hang. If you have the natural ability, if you are strong of will, if you train, if you bind your soul to the Emperor, etc etc, then you can wield the power of the warp unaided (with some risk). If you call on the dark powers to aid you, knowingly or not, you may be tremendously powerful in the short term, but you are playing with fire, and you will get burned. It's all warp power, but there is a distinction, and it is important.

In comparison, the retcon is full of holes. Now the Emperor, or someone with sufficient authority, has to reverse the Council of Nikea decision, where previously it was said that the decree still stood in M41. Just one more arbitrary and short-sighted mistake on the Emperor's part, added to a growing list that's piling up in this Horus Heresy series.

Worse, the distinction between psychic talent and using arcane lore to achieve your goals is being blurred, as evidenced by the Mat Ward-ing of the Grey Knight codex:

"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through the veil of science or sorcery... thusly armoured, a Grey Knight can wield forbidden sorceries, harness taitned artefacts and scour the pages of blasphemous tomes without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command".

Of course there's no friggin' magic in the 41st Millennium! There's still a big difference between what a Grey Knight psyker does and what a Chaos cultist non-psyker does when they draw on the warp. It's a much bigger difference than the observer's "view". If you don't explain that to people, if you casually drop it from the fluff, then the whole psyker schtick stops making any sort of sense. If you call on an arcane spell, but you have good intentions and believe in science, you're safe? If you do the same thing, but you're thinking naughty thoughts, you're overwhelmed with cursed power? So there's no distinction between a cult using a forbidden ritual to open a door to the warp, and a psyker doing the same thing with innate power and a disciplined mind so their squad can teleport across the battlefield?

Sorry for the rant, but this is all a major screw-up. The older fluff fit together, while this new stuff seems very poorly thought out.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Sorry for the rant, but this is all a major screw-up. The older fluff fit together, while this new stuff seems very poorly thought out.

Well, as long as it doesn't flow back into an actual GW book - feel free to ignore it? See our short discussion on page 2.

I think one of the major keys here seems to be the Emperor's own words at the Council.

He specifically pointed out that seeking knowledge as a shortcut to power without first gaining wisdom being the crux of his problem with Magnus. The Emperor places his own path as how much he has sought in his search for knowledge and the wisdom that he has had to earn through those experiences. And that while he has been capable of the quest for power through knowledge, he has also gained the wisdom as to what to do with said power.

So does the Emperor see the same attitude in the rune priests of the Space Wolves? Does the Emperor feel a kindred spirit with the shamanistic culture of the Fenrisians as it is supposedly linked to his own creation?

Questions probably never answered in the game universe, However it is clear with the retcon of just who and what was sanctioned at the Council and it was not the Wolves, nor their rune priests.

Lynata wrote:Well, as long as it doesn't flow back into an actual GW book - feel free to ignore it? See our short discussion on page 2.

I know, and I totally agree with you, but it already seems to be happening. The Grey Knight codex uses psychic power and sorcery interchangeably in the fluff section. It literally says there is no distinction beyond an arbitrary choice of words. Just another interesting piece of the fluff, apparently discarded for no obvious reason.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:The Grey Knight codex uses psychic power and sorcery interchangeably in the fluff section.

Hmm, I see... :(

In many cases I supposed they could be used interchangably depending on the context (they both tap into the warp, and all of mankind has a general "psychic tendency" which just doesn't usually develop into full psyker power), but in general I very much agree about the distinction you so neatly outlined in the big post above. I really hope this isn't getting thrown out entirely!

It'd also blur the lines between psykers and normal people, for when everyone can do sorcery, everyone is a psyker. The Heresy!

Brother Ramses wrote:So does the Emperor see the same attitude in the rune priests of the Space Wolves? Does the Emperor feel a kindred spirit with the shamanistic culture of the Fenrisians as it is supposedly linked to his own creation?

Seriously? No. Given the Imperial Truth's focus on secularism and science, the mere mention of the Space Wolves and their primitive and superstitious ways should cause him physical pain. Keeping traditions around would probably be fine, but actually believing all that jazz about the spirit of Fenris should have been smacked down. Just another HH plot hole.

And the whole Nikea discussion is just a RAW vs. RAI argument. You either take the literal statement where he banned Librarians, but didn't mention Rune Priests at face value, or you take into account that he talked about how dangerous all non-essential psykers were, but only happened to mention Librarians by name.

I'd like to note that this sort of argument is how the SoB were created.

ETA: On sorcery, I seem to remember that there was a codex entry (the previous SM Librarian perhaps?) that mentioned sorcery in such a way that it simply seemed to be a matter of drawing on too much warp energy to pull of too big a 'spell'.

Brother Ramses wrote:Considering the I already provided Omegus with Index Astartes articles detailing the difference between librarians and runes priests as well as the difference in their founding to which he pretty much replied, "those are old articles so don't count" there is only one conclusion that you can draw which is exactly what I did.

You only mention the difference in psychic powers not being enough as you then point out Blood Angels powers being different as well. How about you address no psychic hoods on rune priests? How about addressing that rune priests instead have a runic staff/weapon that negates psychic powers completely different from any SM librarian and is a force weapon that also wounds daemons on a 2+?

The simple fact is that rune priests are NOT librarians. Librarians are a product of Magnus' grand dream for humanity. Librarians are a product of the Libraium, founded primarily by Magnus, trained by Magnus and his Thousand Sons. Rune Priests are a product of the Fenrisian shamanistic culture, NOT Magnus or his Libraium program. Per A Thousand Sons,

Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

Did the Space Wolves ever have a Librarius department? No. Did the Space Wolves ever have warrior and instructors of said Librarius department? No. So what exactly were the Space Wolves to disband and send back to the battle companies?

The retcon has shifted from the unclear banning of boogity boogity sorcery and placed the decree squarely on Magnus' creation(s). The retcon is now a matter of the fruit of the poisoned tree metaphor; Magnus is accused of sorcery hence all he has had his hand in is also poisoned.

You are making some very large - I would contend unsupportably large - inferences there. The Index Astartes Article deserves no more weight that the likewise out of date Rogue Trader/2nd Edition rules and fluff which make the Librarian/Rune Priest distinction specifically one of terminology, and equipped Rune Priests with a force weapon, psychic hood and the same psychic powers and rules as any other Librarian.

I'd note also that despite all the runes fluff in the 5th Edition codex, the new Njal model unmistakably has a pyschic hood, which would support the contention that "rune-magic" is smoke and mirrors rather than substance. As for the difference in dispel/wounding rules, while it carries some weight as an argument, it is diminished by the presence in the Space Wolves codex of a plethora of other nonsensically abberant rules (Long Fangs, extra HQ slots) which a cynic might suggest were there only the make the Wolves' lists more distinct (and - the more cynical might add - overpowered and thus more popular).

It's also rather questionable that the Librarius was necessarily exclusively Magnus' creation: there was a Terran Librarian among the Dark Angels who, in the early days of the crusade, found Jonson. Whether the Space Wolves likewise had a Librarius prior (or indeed subsequent) to the rediscovery of Russ is thus an open question, not the closed issue you declare it.

I reiterate that it undermines your point that other psykers but not Rune Priests were explicitly excluded from the Edict of Nikea.

The point remains open, principally because Games Workshop's game background and fiction are inconsistent, but you are disingenuous to present your inferences as indisputable fact.

daveNYC wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:So does the Emperor see the same attitude in the rune priests of the Space Wolves? Does the Emperor feel a kindred spirit with the shamanistic culture of the Fenrisians as it is supposedly linked to his own creation?

Seriously? No. Given the Imperial Truth's focus on secularism and science, the mere mention of the Space Wolves and their primitive and superstitious ways should cause him physical pain. Keeping traditions around would probably be fine, but actually believing all that jazz about the spirit of Fenris should have been smacked down. Just another HH plot hole.

And the whole Nikea discussion is just a RAW vs. RAI argument. You either take the literal statement where he banned Librarians, but didn't mention Rune Priests at face value, or you take into account that he talked about how dangerous all non-essential psykers were, but only happened to mention Librarians by name.

I'd like to note that this sort of argument is how the SoB were created.

ETA: On sorcery, I seem to remember that there was a codex entry (the previous SM Librarian perhaps?) that mentioned sorcery in such a way that it simply seemed to be a matter of drawing on too much warp energy to pull of too big a 'spell'.

If the Emperor views what Magnus was doing is wrong yet not the rune priests, it could be because he does not agree with Magnus' methods but does agree with the rune priests. I don't have my books with me at work, but the conversation between Ahriman and Othrere seems to draw a decisive line between how both view the warp and how it is to be used. Maybe that is the dividing line between what is considered wrong by the Emperor and what he considers right.

And as I pointed out, supposedly the Emperor was created by the reincarnated souls of a thousand powerful shamans or some crap. That is the possible kindred spirit with shamanistic foundings of the rune priests that I was talking about.

Just for the record, I never said those articles "don't count" (that was icpotaxo I think), I just refute your interpretation of what that article states. It says the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves hold to different beliefs and practices than the Librarians of other chapters, but they are still psykers and still utilize psychic powers.

Brother Ramses wrote:And as I pointed out, supposedly the Emperor was created by the reincarnated souls of a thousand powerful shamans or some crap. That is the possible kindred spirit with shamanistic foundings of the rune priests that I was talking about.

Yeah, I got that. It's just at this point, 15,000 years or so since he was born, the Emperor does seem to be well past the point where he would go along with any superstitions. Plus there are plenty of hints that the current Emperor isn't a kindred spirit to anyone. A couple of HH characters have gotten glimpses behind the mask and not liked what they saw.

If the Emperor views what Magnus was doing is wrong yet not the rune priests, it could be because he does not agree with Magnus' methods but does agree with the rune priests. I don't have my books with me at work, but the conversation between Ahriman and Othrere seems to draw a decisive line between how both view the warp and how it is to be used. Maybe that is the dividing line between what is considered wrong by the Emperor and what he considers right.

The problem there, and it's a problem with the whole 'ban Librarians but not Rune Priests' argument, is that action the Emperor took was to ban the Librarians. If it had been a case that Rune Priests were good, but Librarians were bad, then why didn't he mandate that the Librarians simply change their methods to whatever the Rune Priests did? Now you could argue that Magnus and his crew are just to eager, and would just run screaming over any line you drew for them, and I would buy it. But that wouldn't explain lowering the boom on other primitive screwhead types like the White Scars. Nikea would make more sense if it had only applied to the Thousand Sons. Trying to explain how it applied to everyone except the Space Wolves, and that nobody considered adopting whatever it was that made Rune Priests safe in order to keep their psyker gig, requires a bit of effort.

What? You dare refute the idea that Space Wolves are super awesome and better at everything than anyone? You are obviously an Ultramarines fanboy.

Omegus wrote:Just for the record, I never said those articles "don't count" (that was icpotaxo I think), I just refute your interpretation of what that article states. It says the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves hold to different beliefs and practices than the Librarians of other chapters, but they are still psykers and still utilize psychic powers.

If you ae going to reference it, reference it completely without adding your own commnetary;

The particular psychic powers and practises they employ, however, are based on those of the traditional shamans of their homeworld Fenris, and as such are very different from the Codex form.

Plain as day, not linked to the Librarium. Plain as day, not only the powers, but more importantly the practises they employ not linked to the Librarium. It gives you where they come from, which is not the Librarium.

Keep clinging to the fact that they use psychic powers and thus are pskers. That doesn't help you with the retconned Emperor's decree of disbanding the Librarius and sending the warriors and instructors back to the battle companies.

English, nothing has changed with how the Librarium was created and how Magnus was chiefly responsible for implementating librarians into the Legions. He did it with the Emperor's blessing aka the Librarian project/experiment which was later called the Librarian crisis. It was Magnus' baby as it aligned with his vision for humanity and the warp/psychic powers.

The Njal model has a psychic hood, but it is not listed on his wargear nor is it represented in his fluff or rules. He uses the Staff of the Stormcaller to negate psychic powers, again another deviation from codex librarians.

daveNYC wrote:Nikea would make more sense if it had only applied to the Thousand Sons. Trying to explain how it applied to everyone except the Space Wolves, and that nobody considered adopting whatever it was that made Rune Priests safe in order to keep their psyker gig, requires a bit of effort.

This is definitely the crux of the whole issue. Nikea used to make sense, and it used to mesh with the rest of the universe as described. Now it is broken and requires further retcons just to make things right, in addition to potentially muddying what used to be an important distinction in the fluff.

Brother Ramses wrote:The Njal model has a psychic hood, but it is not listed on his wargear nor is it represented in his fluff or rules. He uses the Staff of the Stormcaller to negate psychic powers, again another deviation from codex librarians.

Or maybe he's plugged into a psychic hood as per a normal librarian, but actually thinks it's his stick waving that does the nullification? :-) I mean lets face it, most of the inhabitants of the 40k universe aren't exactly masters of figuring out cause and effect. Mechanicum, I'm looking at you.

daveNYC wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:And as I pointed out, supposedly the Emperor was created by the reincarnated souls of a thousand powerful shamans or some crap. That is the possible kindred spirit with shamanistic foundings of the rune priests that I was talking about.

Yeah, I got that. It's just at this point, 15,000 years or so since he was born, the Emperor does seem to be well past the point where he would go along with any superstitions. Plus there are plenty of hints that the current Emperor isn't a kindred spirit to anyone. A couple of HH characters have gotten glimpses behind the mask and not liked what they saw.

If the Emperor views what Magnus was doing is wrong yet not the rune priests, it could be because he does not agree with Magnus' methods but does agree with the rune priests. I don't have my books with me at work, but the conversation between Ahriman and Othrere seems to draw a decisive line between how both view the warp and how it is to be used. Maybe that is the dividing line between what is considered wrong by the Emperor and what he considers right.

The problem there, and it's a problem with the whole 'ban Librarians but not Rune Priests' argument, is that action the Emperor took was to ban the Librarians. If it had been a case that Rune Priests were good, but Librarians were bad, then why didn't he mandate that the Librarians simply change their methods to whatever the Rune Priests did? Now you could argue that Magnus and his crew are just to eager, and would just run screaming over any line you drew for them, and I would buy it. But that wouldn't explain lowering the boom on other primitive screwhead types like the White Scars. Nikea would make more sense if it had only applied to the Thousand Sons. Trying to explain how it applied to everyone except the Space Wolves, and that nobody considered adopting whatever it was that made Rune Priests safe in order to keep their psyker gig, requires a bit of effort.

Which is not an answer we should expect anytime soon.

You have one of two choices really,

1. The rune priests were included yet for some unknown reason faced no sanction in still using psychic powers and then are even ordered to sanction those still using psychic powers, while being accompanied by the Silent Sisterhood and the Custodes. That takes some mental hoop jumping since both the Sisterhood and Custodes were present at Nikkea and held allegiance towards the Emperor, not Russ.

2. The rune priests were not included as their use of psychic powers was not founded in the, "tainted" teachings of Magnus as was the whole Librarius program.

With the first scenarion you have to accept that Russ was blatantly disobeying the Emperor. Not only Russ, but also the Silent Sisterhood and the Emperor's own Custodes. You also have to then imagine a scenario that has the Wolves facing no sanction for doing exactly what they are called upon to sanction. Not even mental hoops, that requires a mental olympics to justify.

The second scenario falls simply into place. You don't have to imagine Russ, the Sisterhood, and the Custodes directly disobeying the Emperor yet facing no punishment. You don't have to face the paradox of the Wolves sanctioing the Thousand Sons for use of psychic powers while using said psychic powers without being sanctioned themselves.

It irks other 40k players, especially other SM player, to no end that the Wolves are the supposed executionors of the Emperor. It destroys their perception of their army being the twinkle in the Emperor's eye. However if you read the edict and then see zero evidence of any sanction to the Space Wolves for their continued use of psychic powers, everything points to the fact that they were excluded from the edict and more then likely were even sanctioned pskers of the Emperor to carry out whatever orders he needed the Wolves to follow.

Brother Ramses wrote:You have one of two choices really,

1. The rune priests were included yet for some unknown reason faced no sanction in still using psychic powers and then are even ordered to sanction those still using psychic powers, while being accompanied by the Silent Sisterhood and the Custodes. That takes some mental hoop jumping since both the Sisterhood and Custodes were present at Nikkea and held allegiance towards the Emperor, not Russ.

2. The rune priests were not included as their use of psychic powers was not founded in the, "tainted" teachings of Magnus as was the whole Librarius program.

With the first scenarion you have to accept that Russ was blatantly disobeying the Emperor. Not only Russ, but also the Silent Sisterhood and the Emperor's own Custodes. You also have to then imagine a scenario that has the Wolves facing no sanction for doing exactly what they are called upon to sanction. Not even mental hoops, that requires a mental olympics to justify.

The second scenario falls simply into place. You don't have to imagine Russ, the Sisterhood, and the Custodes directly disobeying the Emperor yet facing no punishment. You don't have to face the paradox of the Wolves sanctioing the Thousand Sons for use of psychic powers while using said psychic powers without being sanctioned themselves.

It irks other 40k players, especially other SM player, to no end that the Wolves are the supposed executionors of the Emperor. It destroys their perception of their army being the twinkle in the Emperor's eye. However if you read the edict and then see zero evidence of any sanction to the Space Wolves for their continued use of psychic powers, everything points to the fact that they were excluded from the edict and more then likely were even sanctioned pskers of the Emperor to carry out whatever orders he needed the Wolves to follow.

You also have option 3: The whole episode is retold to us from the perspective of a human that is being mentally manipulated by the Space Wolves. So, of course, everything will be Space Wolf biased. And since it is the only fluff that doesn't fit into already established fluff...

You can see where I'm going here, right?

Given that the Wolves' attack on Prospero is due to manipulation by both the ruinous powers (as seen in PB) and Horus (in False Gods, I believe), it's not hard to believe that Horus, acting in his role as Warmaster, gave the Wolves special dispensantion to use their psykers in the action.

The Sisters, Custodes, and Wolves had already accepted an order to exterminate a legion, accepting an order to use all the means at their disposal is small potatoes in comparison.

Otherwise you are forced to accept that Librarians are tainted because Magnus wrote their textbooks, even though the practices of the Thousand Sons are nothing like what the Librarians do, and that the Rune Priests methods are uncorrupted (and uncorruptable, remember that the ban wasn't due to some incident of Librarians going bad it was due to the inherent dangers of psychic power usage) yet nobody from another legion decided to adopt their methods.

ToBeWilly wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

2. The rune priests were not included as their use of psychic powers was not founded in the, "tainted" teachings of Magnus as was the whole Librarius program.

The second scenario falls simply into place. You don't have to imagine Russ, the Sisterhood, and the Custodes directly disobeying the Emperor yet facing no punishment. You don't have to face the paradox of the Wolves sanctioing the Thousand Sons for use of psychic powers while using said psychic powers without being sanctioned themselves.

It irks other 40k players, especially other SM player, to no end that the Wolves are the supposed executionors of the Emperor. It destroys their perception of their army being the twinkle in the Emperor's eye. However if you read the edict and then see zero evidence of any sanction to the Space Wolves for their continued use of psychic powers, everything points to the fact that they were excluded from the edict and more then likely were even sanctioned pskers of the Emperor to carry out whatever orders he needed the Wolves to follow.

You also have option 3: The whole episode is retold to us from the perspective of a human that is being mentally manipulated by the Space Wolves. So, of course, everything will be Space Wolf biased. And since it is the only fluff that doesn't fit into already established fluff...

You can see where I'm going here, right?

I like #2. Since the Emperor didn't ban the use of all psychic energy by everybody. He realized that not all warp energies are used the same way (being a powerful psycher himself he might know multiple ways of manipulating the warp), and he only saw the dangers in the way that the Librarians were learning and using it. Thus he specifically singled them out.

There are two ways to light a fire.

1) start with some kindling, build a nest of paper and twigs, slowly breath life into it until it catches and start adding larger planks of wood.
2) douse the whole thing with a gallon of gas and drop a match.

Which way are you going to use. Maybe the Rune Priest way of doing it just doesn't present the same dangers and yet still gets the job done.

I'd also like to point out that rune Priest model doesn't have a psychic hood at all. Nor is one listed anywhere in their profile. Yet still has the canceling power, and that power even functions mechanically different than a traditional psychic hood. The Rune Priests just do things differently. Its not a bad thing, but I guess it just rubs some fans the wrong way.

Then you run into the question: If the Emperor wasn't banning all psyker use by SM legions, why did he ban the Librarians instead of simply reforming their training and use of the warp to reflect how the Rune Priests do it?

There are two ways to light a fire.

1) start with some kindling, build a nest of paper and twigs, slowly breath life into it until it catches and start adding larger planks of wood.
2) douse the whole thing with a gallon of gas and drop a match.

Which way are you going to use. Maybe the Rune Priest way of doing it just doesn't present the same dangers and yet still gets the job done.

Are you trying to imply that #2 isn't the right and proper way to start a fire? BTW, you forgot method #3, steel wool and a 9v battery.

Beceause its been well established that Marines are nothing if not abhorrent to change. If something has been done for 10000 years, well thats good enough. No reason to learn something new.

Rune Priests and the people are Fenris are steeped in tradition since before the foundings. They themselves have been doing it the same way 10000 years.

And yes. Since I'm no longer 12, pay insurance premiums, and am a concerned, educated member of a community. #2 is not the proper way to light a fire.

ToBeWilly wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:You have one of two choices really,

1. The rune priests were included yet for some unknown reason faced no sanction in still using psychic powers and then are even ordered to sanction those still using psychic powers, while being accompanied by the Silent Sisterhood and the Custodes. That takes some mental hoop jumping since both the Sisterhood and Custodes were present at Nikkea and held allegiance towards the Emperor, not Russ.

2. The rune priests were not included as their use of psychic powers was not founded in the, "tainted" teachings of Magnus as was the whole Librarius program.

With the first scenarion you have to accept that Russ was blatantly disobeying the Emperor. Not only Russ, but also the Silent Sisterhood and the Emperor's own Custodes. You also have to then imagine a scenario that has the Wolves facing no sanction for doing exactly what they are called upon to sanction. Not even mental hoops, that requires a mental olympics to justify.

The second scenario falls simply into place. You don't have to imagine Russ, the Sisterhood, and the Custodes directly disobeying the Emperor yet facing no punishment. You don't have to face the paradox of the Wolves sanctioing the Thousand Sons for use of psychic powers while using said psychic powers without being sanctioned themselves.

It irks other 40k players, especially other SM player, to no end that the Wolves are the supposed executionors of the Emperor. It destroys their perception of their army being the twinkle in the Emperor's eye. However if you read the edict and then see zero evidence of any sanction to the Space Wolves for their continued use of psychic powers, everything points to the fact that they were excluded from the edict and more then likely were even sanctioned pskers of the Emperor to carry out whatever orders he needed the Wolves to follow.

You also have option 3: The whole episode is retold to us from the perspective of a human that is being mentally manipulated by the Space Wolves. So, of course, everything will be Space Wolf biased. And since it is the only fluff that doesn't fit into already established fluff...

You can see where I'm going here, right?

The Librarian Crisis and the Council of Nikkea have their own canon outside of Prospero Burns. Even in a Thousand Sons, told from the Thousand Sons perspective, has the Custodes and Sisterhood accompanying the Wolves while they sanction Prospero and the Sons.

Said human is not being mentally manipulated by the Wolves. He has pretty much been the Primordial Annihilator's meat puppet since he was a child. The Wolves even talk of killing him since they still do not know how much of a conduit or threat he remains to be and instead choose to have him put in stasis. Remember, Kasper was not a tool of the Wolves, he was a tool of the Primordial Annihilator.

Jayden63 wrote:Beceause its been well established that Marines are nothing if not abhorrent to change. If something has been done for 10000 years, well thats good enough. No reason to learn something new.

Rune Priests and the people are Fenris are steeped in tradition since before the foundings. They themselves have been doing it the same way 10000 years.

And yes. Since I'm no longer 12, pay insurance premiums, and am a concerned, educated member of a community. #2 is not the proper way to light a fire.

I wasn't suggesting the Wolves change. If Rune Priests weren't covered by Nikea, then the Wolves wouldn't have had to change. It would be the other legions that could have changed to have their psyker practices reflect that of the Rune Priests. And at the point in time we're talking about, no legion had been doing anything for 10,000 years, not to mention that the extreme hidebound nature of all the elements of the Imperium is a characteristic of the post-heresy Imperium. The Great Crusade Imperium was far less pants-on-head.

Your inability to detect snark is well matched by your lack of a sense of humor.