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Omegus wrote:1.) Loyalist forces win. Both sides will be diminished, and someone will have to keep order as well as chase the remnant traitor forces out of the galaxy. AKA The Scouring AKA "What Actually Happened"

This. Why would Guilliman assume that in this scenario the Emperor would be incapacitated? What if the loyalist forces win but the Emperor doesn't agree with Guilliman stepping in and imposing his new order? Afterall, part of his new Codex goes directly against the Emperor's stated intentions (i.e. no librarians). Thus the wargames against the loyalists.

He's not assuming in that case the Emperor is incapacitated. But the Emperor is not about to go on a solo hunting mission around the galaxy to chase down all the traitors.

well.....

It always made more sense to me that what the Emperor was ACTUALLY banning was SORCERY, not Psykers. Sorcery involved calling on Warp Spawned beings, pacts, ritualism, and other sorts of acts that take the mind away from the focus needed to repel Chaos, and closer to the mind set that allows it in. Naturally, the Emperor would not want this to happen.

Magnus wanted to keep researching Sorcery because he believed he and his brood were strong enough to repel the corruption (and he was right) and also because he wanted to Know the enemy in order to defeat them. Only Sorcery gave him the strength necessary to propel his avatar far and fast enough through the warp to warn the Emperor of Horus's treachery, but in so doing, he undid the wards surrounding the Webway project the Emperor was working on.

If we see it from this angle, the fluff makes PERFECT SENSE. The Librarians were never outlawed by the Emperor at all. They were merely forbidden from researching sorcery, and were constrained only to strengthening their own human-based psychic powers: an angle the Emperor would have approved of anyway (being all anthro-centric as he was).

I understand that, much like the Book of Genesis, there were two pieces of background story that seem to tell the same tale, but sadly conflict on this matter: one of them says "Sorcery," not "Librarians" or "Psychic Powers."

Sorcery = psychic powers.

Psykers = Sorcerers.

The only difference is whether or not you're for or against the Imperium.

infinite_array wrote:Sorcery = psychic powers.

Psykers = Sorcerers.

The only difference is whether or not you're for or against the Imperium.

Listen to gandalf, you can't really ban one without the other. Oh you can use psykers they just can't draw energy from the warp doesn't work. The legions weren't being responsible enough for psykers so no psykers.

well the emperor is a psyker so that would have backfired quickly.

Deadshot wrote:well the emperor is a psyker so that would have backfired quickly.

He's not a member of the legions so not really.

but he did exile psykers and was part of every legion untill ther primarch was found.

Deadshot wrote:but he did exile psykers and was part of every legion untill ther primarch was found.

He was not a member of the legions at all, he was supreme commander of the Empire. Any sanctioned psykers not in the chapters were still allowed like Navigators and such.

infinite_array wrote:You know, I'm curious about the whole 'Ruling of Nikaea'.

In it, we have the Emperor declaring that Psykers, especially those in the Legions, were to be outlawed.

And yet, the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves were still allowed.

Is this because the Wolves were originally designed to hunt down other Legions, or was it truly thought that their 'Rune Magic' was different from, say, the Thousand Sons' psyker abilities?

Read Prospero Burns, in it Leman Russ explains that each Primarch had its particular purpose when the Emperor designed them. Leman Russ was designed to be the Emperor's executioner. The fact that they were present at Nikea, but the Sisters of Silence nulled their psychic signal from Magnus, enforces the Emperor wanted them to stay powerful for that one reason. If any Astartes spoke out, it was Wolf Time!

infinite_array wrote:Sorcery = psychic powers.

Psykers = Sorcerers.

I thought it was more:

Sorcery = Pacts with Warp Beings to gain power

Psyker = Using the 'raw energy' of the Warp

I swear the idea that the Space Wolves were the Emperor's executioners and that they had already taken out at least one legion is the worst meme since tubgirl.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
It seems to imply that Guilliman is waiting for a winner to emerge before he steps in and imposes his vision for the "Second Imperium" - a radical new order in which the power of the primarchs and their legions is broken.

To his credit, he doesn't install himself as the "Second Emperor" (though it remains to be seen whether this is due to his magnanimity or simply the Emperor's inconvenient failure to actually die), but his new order does result in his legion (or more accurately its successor chapters) becoming the predominant Astartes, surpassing all others by an order of magnitude. Go figure.

Here's the thing. That's only a point of drama "during" the Heresy, or to those just ignorant of existing background material.

We, the omniscient reader, know otherwise. Guilliman created the regency of the Imperium and organized the High Lords of Terra. Those High Lords _begged_ Guilliman to declare himself the new Emperor. He refused stating that the Emperor wanted Humanity to be in charge of itself (and as a primarch, he wasn't human).

He broke up the legions and removed them from fleet action to reduce the chances of a second Space Marine insurrection.*

This has been spelled out in Codexes already, it's not conjecture.

*And it worked until Lughft Huron decided to mash a bunch of chapters and PDFs into another legion 10 thousand years later.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:This is absolutely the worst fluff screw up so far, which is saying a lot for GW. It requires complicated mental gymnastics to explain how the Emperor banned librarians and not just sorcerers, then changed his mind later.

Not really.

The Space Wolves were the Emperor's "wetworks" guys. Their job was to do things that were illegal, immoral, or downright unspeakable. They were allowed to worship false gods (Lorgar got smacked down for deifying the Emperor), embraced the flesh change in their ranks, and killed other Astartes without second thought (something that was unthinkable to right-minded Astartes before the Heresy).

We would later discover that Russ would willingly and gleefully seek to destroy his brother Magnus on the word of the traitor Horus.

Is it really any wonder then that the Space Wolves would continue to use their warp powers against the Edict if they thought that it was in their best interest? The Emperor had never before limited the abuses of the Wolves, and so they had no expectation that the Emperor's rules would ever be binding on them.

HE knows that SW are best used when there in the element which is reckless berserk wolfman type actions,limiting them means they can't be the best them they can be.

I thought that the "ruling of Nikaea" said that psykers could not be used in battle. Also, what the Thousand Sons were doing was Sorcery.

Alpharius wrote:

infinite_array wrote:Sorcery = psychic powers.

Psykers = Sorcerers.

I thought it was more:

Sorcery = Pacts with Warp Beings to gain power

Psyker = Using the 'raw energy' of the Warp

From the Grey Knights Codex, Page 7:

"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through the veil of science or sorcery... thusly armoured, a Grey Knight can wield forbidden sorceries, harness taitned artefacts and scour the pages of blasphemous tomes without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command".

Daemons are Warp-entities, essentially made up of psychic energy. A Pact with a Daemon might give the pact-maker increased power, but there is no 'magic' within the 40k universe, only psychic powers.

Omegus wrote:He's not assuming in that case the Emperor is incapacitated. But the Emperor is not about to go on a solo hunting mission around the galaxy to chase down all the traitors.

So then why is he training his legion to fight other loyalist legions? The only scenario in which this would be necessary is one in which Horus is defeated; if Horus wins then the Ultramarines fight Horus and his allies, not the loyalists. Now assuming Horus is defeated and the Emperor survives, there are two possibilities which would necessitate fighting other loyalist legions:

1. Guilliman introduces his Codex Astartes and proposes that all the legions adopt it and be broken up. The Emperor agrees. This causes a handful of loyalist primarchs to oppose the Emperor. The Ultramarines plus those legions in favor of the Codex go to war against those opposed.

2. Guilliman introduces his Codex Astartes and proposes that all the legions adopt it and be broken up. The Emperor disagrees. This causes the Guilliman to oppose the Emperor AND ALL THE OTHER LOYALIST LEGIONS. The Ultramarines go to war against everyone.

I posit that the wargames against the Salamanders are in preparation for scenario number 2. Afterall, why would he be training to fight the Salamanders if it was in preparation for scenario 1? They had already been decimated at Istvaan V. They didn't even have enough battle brothers left to spawn any successor chapters. And they were loyal to the Emperor.

Now it's quite possible that Guilliman has no wish to install himself as Emperor. However, he may be planning to institute his new order by force for the good of the Imperium, even if it means opposing the Emperor.

Nagashek wrote:If we see it from this angle, the fluff makes PERFECT SENSE. The Librarians were never outlawed by the Emperor at all. They were merely forbidden from researching sorcery, and were constrained only to strengthening their own human-based psychic powers: an angle the Emperor would have approved of anyway (being all anthro-centric as he was).

The Emperor explicitly outlaws librarians at Nikaea. Read A Thousand Sons.

infinite_array wrote:"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through the veil of science or sorcery... thusly armoured, a Grey Knight can wield forbidden sorceries, harness taitned artefacts and scour the pages of blasphemous tomes without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power at his command".

Daemons are Warp-entities, essentially made up of psychic energy. A Pact with a Daemon might give the pact-maker increased power, but there is no 'magic' within the 40k universe, only psychic powers.

Man, now you have me agreeing with some Ward-fluff, though I also think the previous Space Marine codex had a similar description under the Librarian entry. Really there is no hard and set line that divides 'regular' psyker powers from sorcery. I think the best you can do is define it like obscenity, you know it when you see it. Which means that everyone will see it differently.

For example, what would you say about a process that sucks the life out of hundreds of human sacrifices a day simply to sustain the existance of a creature that demands the worship of the people under it's control? You'd say "Thank the Emperor for the Golden Throne."

As an aside, I prefer to think that the GK's wards and whatnot cause them to burn if they ever fall to corruption. So while the Imperium doesn't have to worry about them falling, they themselves do have to work to keep on the straight and narrow. Gives them a little more tension.

Alpharius wrote:

infinite_array wrote:Sorcery = psychic powers.

Psykers = Sorcerers.

I thought it was more:

Sorcery = Pacts with Warp Beings to gain power

Psyker = Using the 'raw energy' of the Warp

Yeah Alph, you got it.

Everyone can become a Sorcerer if you figure out how to commune with the Warp beings to establish a Pact. A Psyker can become a Sorcerer, but so could Joe Schmoe from Hab Block C.

Not everyone can become a Psyker, however.

What about daemon summoning, or creating a warp based weapon then? Or, as a huge hypothetical, if you were to travel in the way back machine to when the Eldar gods still existed, would have it been sorcery to gain power by doing a deal with one of them?

biccat wrote:The Space Wolves were the Emperor's "wetworks" guys. Their job was to do things that were illegal, immoral, or downright unspeakable.

Conjecture theory.

The only place we see that is from an old Wolf Priest tasked with impressing a human skald with how awesome Space Wolves are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Omegus wrote:He's not assuming in that case the Emperor is incapacitated. But the Emperor is not about to go on a solo hunting mission around the galaxy to chase down all the traitors.

So then why is he training his legion to fight other loyalist legions? The only scenario in which this would be necessary is one in which Horus is defeated; if Horus wins then the Ultramarines fight Horus and his allies, not the loyalists. Now assuming Horus is defeated and the Emperor survives, there are two possibilities which would necessitate fighting other loyalist legions:

1. Guilliman introduces his Codex Astartes and proposes that all the legions adopt it and be broken up. The Emperor agrees. This causes a handful of loyalist primarchs to oppose the Emperor. The Ultramarines plus those legions in favor of the Codex go to war against those opposed.

2. Guilliman introduces his Codex Astartes and proposes that all the legions adopt it and be broken up. The Emperor disagrees. This causes the Guilliman to oppose the Emperor AND ALL THE OTHER LOYALIST LEGIONS. The Ultramarines go to war against everyone.

I posit that the wargames against the Salamanders are in preparation for scenario number 2. Afterall, why would he be training to fight the Salamanders if it was in preparation for scenario 1? They had already been decimated at Istvaan V. They didn't even have enough battle brothers left to spawn any successor chapters. And they were loyal to the Emperor.

Now it's quite possible that Guilliman has no wish to install himself as Emperor. However, he may be planning to institute his new order by force for the good of the Imperium, even if it means opposing the Emperor..

This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).

And I absolutely love the last line. Uh, yes, that is indeed quite possible, considering he had an opportunity to do just that and did no such thing.

biccat wrote:The Space Wolves were the Emperor's "wetworks" guys. Their job was to do things that were illegal, immoral, or downright unspeakable.

And the Night Lords and World Eaters did what again? Heck, even the Ultramarines nuked a compliant(ish) city from orbit in order to teach Lorgar a lesson. The Legion that could almost maybe be considered a wetworks shop is Alpha Legion, and that's because they're all cover-ops. In reality though, what we consider to be wetworks would be handled by the same type of people who do our wetworks. Assassins working for Inquisitors (squint real hard and you can think of the CIA as the Ordo Xenos).

ah, but in thousand sons, you see otheir wyrdmake doing spirit flight with ahriman :S

Omegus wrote:

biccat wrote:The Space Wolves were the Emperor's "wetworks" guys. Their job was to do things that were illegal, immoral, or downright unspeakable.

Conjecture/fanwanking theory.

The only place we see that is from an old Wolf Priest tasked with impressing a human skald with how awesome Space Wolves are.

Wow, really, "fanwanking theory"? That's...novel.

The Primarchs were given free reign over the direction and conducting of the Great Crusade. They could kill civilians and guard without repercussions, decide to destroy or preserve entire civilizations based solely on their own authority, direct their forces where they best thought they would be used, and generally weren't subject to any restrictions. The only big rules were to advance the Imperium, fight for humanity, and don't feth with your brother Astartes.

The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.

biccat wrote:The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.

That's because they were the only ones told to do so. And that is assuming that all the hints and lines in the entire HH series that indicate that the Wolves have fought against Astartes before are accurate.

Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).

You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?

Omegus wrote:The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).

Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.

Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.

Omegus wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Now it's quite possible that Guilliman has no wish to install himself as Emperor. However, he may be planning to institute his new order by force for the good of the Imperium, even if it means opposing the Emperor..

And I absolutely love the last line. Uh, yes, that is indeed quite possible, considering he had an opportunity to do just that and did no such thing.

He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.

I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.

biccat wrote:Wow, really, "fanwanking theory"? That's...novel.

The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.

Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure speculation

watch the language please. ta.
reds8n

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).

You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?

Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.

Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.

He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.

I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.

Yes, that totally sounds like some megalomaniac planning a coup because he disagrees with his father.

Now quit trolling.

Omegus wrote:

biccat wrote:Wow, really, "fanwanking theory"? That's...novel.

The Night Lords, World Eaters, Ultramarines, and Alpha Legion didn't attack their brothers and violate that unwritten law. The Space Wolves were the only ones given the authority to fight against other Astartes.

Again, we only hear this from one source, the old Priest. Trying to expound that into some far reaching authority that makes Space Wolves the anti-Space Marine Space Marines is again, pure fanwankery.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Omegus wrote:This is utter nonsense. We "see" Guilliman's thoughts on the subject. The practice was against everyone, because at that point no one could be trusted. Even among the loyal legions there could have been some who turned (as there were plenty in the traitor legions who did not).

You mean the part when Guilliman is penning the "Imperium Secundus" before the the "Imperium Primus" is even finished? Or when he admits that "they will call us traitors"?

Turned against whom? The Emperor or Guilliman? Because if the Salamanders had wanted to turn against the Emperor they would have had ample opportunity to do so BEFORE they had nearly their entire legion annihilated. The Emperor certainly had no reason not to trust the Salamanders. It's Guilliman who didn't trust them - to go along with his coup.

Ultimately Guilliman's plans are all about Guilliman's vision for the Second Imperium. Not the Emperor's vision for the First. Afterall, the First Imperium failed, as did the Emperor.

He didn't install himself as Emperor. But he does threaten to go to war with Dorn (who was actually AT TERRA DEFENDING THE EMPEROR, unlike the supposedly loyal Ultramarines) if he doesn't disband his legion. So yeah.

I think Guilliman is planning to implement his new order for the good of the Imperium (as he sees it) regardless of what the Emperor or the other primarchs think, and if that means war then so be it. Thus the wargames.

Spoiler:

It was to be his greatest work, his Magnum Opus, the undertaking for which he would be forever remembered. Some might consider such sentiment to be vanity on his part, but he knew better. This was a work that would save everything his gene-father had tried to build. Its teachings would form the foundation of what was needed to weather the coming storm.

Selflessness, not pride, guided his hand as he set down decades of accumulated wisdom, each chapter and verse a fragment of his biologically encoded genius, each morsel of imparted knowledge a building block that would combine to form a work immeasurably greater than the sum of its parts. In the wake of the devastation unleashed on Calth, the Legion was looking to him for leadership more than ever. His warriors had suffered a grievous blow to their pride, and desperately needed to see their primogenitor. Helots brought petitions for audiences from his Chapter captains every day, but this endeavour was too important to grant such requests. They did not understand why he sequestered himself away from his sons, but they did not need to understand. All that was required of them was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.

In all his years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice. The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.

The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not.

Yes, that totally sounds like some megalomaniac planning a coup because he disagrees with his father.

Now quit trolling.

Yeah you cant argue with the logic. Some of the cannon is just not up for debate, and the way Gulliman behaved was simply not written as "one blokes opinion" or "a side of the story" it was written "this is what happened"

Gulliman is a good guy. Its right there in black and white, and your fanciful ideas might have made an interesting story, but its not how it happened. You might as well say Horus wasnt really called Horus, he was called Norris and his legion was called the Space Tigers. That's not what the guys who write this stuff say happened.