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The helliarch can take a stunclaw which confer +1 strenght and can nominate an independant character in the same combat. So can you pull out one of your own independant characters? To get them out of a combat they are losing?

I thought it was still as part of the "attack" and so would have to be an enemy IC, as you cannot attack your own side.

Yo umay need to post the actual rule.

Doesn't work.

The stunclaw is a close combat weapon, it confers +1 strength, and "...it can also be used as a grapple with which to snare and entrap an enemy leader." {emphasis mine}

EDIT-a CCW not a power weapon, corrected.

While the fluff is very much an enemy leader ... the rule its self is that the helliarch may nominate an IC in the same combat and roll a D6. On a 2+ the model is snatched. After finished hit and run place the snatched model in contact with as many of the hellions as possible ... this new combat will be resolved next turn.

So while technically you can in practice i think you're pushing it.

Edit ninja'd
I thought it might be nice to get a haemy out of cc after he dropped his portal to save a killpoint.

Tri wrote:While the fluff is very much an enemy leader ... the rule its self is that the helliarch may nominate an IC in the same combat and roll a D6. On a 2+ the model is snatched. After finished hit and run place the snatched model in contact with as many of the hellions as possible ... this new combat will be resolved next turn.

The rule for the stunclaw doesn't contain fluff. It is the rule. The first sentence describes the weapon, a CCW and it confers +1 strength.
The next sentence gives its special rule, it can snatch an enemy leader.
Then it goes on to lay out the mechanics of snatching said enemy leader.
Even the last sentence says to leave as many hellions as possible in base contact with the 'snatched' model and resolve the new combat the next turn.
You don't have to be in base contact with friendly models, only enemy ones in assault, and you don't resolve any combat against friendly models.

time wizard wrote:

Tri wrote:While the fluff is very much an enemy leader ... the rule its self is that the helliarch may nominate an IC in the same combat and roll a D6. On a 2+ the model is snatched. After finished hit and run place the snatched model in contact with as many of the hellions as possible ... this new combat will be resolved next turn.

The rule for the stunclaw doesn't contain fluff. It is the rule. The first sentence describes the weapon, a CCW and it confers +1 strength.
The next sentence gives its special rule, it can snatch an enemy leader.
Then it goes on to lay out the mechanics of snatching said enemy leader.
Even the last sentence says to leave as many hellions as possible in base contact with the 'snatched' model and resolve the new combat the next turn.
You don't have to be in base contact with friendly models, only enemy ones in assault, and you don't resolve any combat against friendly models.

I agree but ...
"it can be used as a grapple to snatch an enemy leader" so we can grapple with enemy leaders whatever grapple and leader are.
and then " when performing a hit and run, an Helliarch may nominate an independent character in the same combat and roll a D6" which doesn't mention enemy.

While we would have to rely on the common meaning for 'grapple', page 47 of the main rulebook says in part, "As characters normally have a better Ld than other warriors, this means they make very good leaders for other units in the army."
So leaders would be independent characters.

time wizard wrote:While we would have to rely on the common meaning for 'grapple', page 47 of the main rulebook says in part, "As characters normally have a better Ld than other warriors, this means they make very good leaders for other units in the army."
So leaders would be independent characters.

or upgrade character or special characters. So we grab the enemy character and give them a hug.

However any IC can be nominated and on a D6 roll of 2+ they're snatched.

As much as it seems wrong, looking at the rule in my 'dex, I agree with Tri; RAW you can pick any IC in the combat and take them with you on a 2+.

I can see where the intent was, but until they clarify it with a FAQ, the RAW is different.

Tri wrote:

However any IC can be nominated and on a D6 roll of 2+ they're snatched.

"...any enemy IC..."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beamo wrote:As much as it seems wrong, looking at the rule in my 'dex, I agree with Tri; RAW you can pick any IC in the combat and take them with you on a 2+.

Only if you take each sentence in the rule in isolation, but that's not how the rules work.

Take the bladevane for example. You turbo boost with it and trace a line between its start and end point.
What happens if you turbo boost over only friendly units?
By your logic, your own units must get hit. The sentence reads;
"Once the move is complete, the unit inflicts D3 S4 AP- hits per Reaver on one unengaged, non-vehicle unit that lies under the line, resolved immediately."

It doesn't say on one unengaged, non-vehicle enemy unit does it?
And you can't say that you are prevented from targeting friendly units because the rule says nothing about targetting a unit, just says a unit under the line.
So you would have to hit a friendly unit.

Except the frist sentence of the rule says when a reaver unit turbo boosts, it "...may slash its foes with its bladevanes."

Does the rule have to specify that the bladevanes only hit enemy units during the turbo boost move?
No, because the first part of the rule, the first sentence, sets the paramenters for the application of the rest of the rule.

Same for the stunclaw. The first part of the rule sets the fact that it is used on an enemy leader.
The rest of the rule explains how to use it against an enemy character, just like the rest of the bladevanes rules explain how to use it against an unengaged, non-vehicle enemy unit.

You don't need to FAQ the obvious.

That's a fair point, and I'll concede to you on that precedent, but if the PSA debacle is anything to go by, yes, we do now have to FAQ the obvious, because if you don't, it simply becomes ammunition for people who don't like a certain codex/psychic powers/rule, or it becomes a grey area for WAAC players to abuse.

How hard was it to put "enemy" in the targeting description of each of those rules? Too hard, apparently.

The rule designers for 40k, by and large, operate under the illusion that their rules will be interpreted with common sense, by people who just want to have a fun game, when the reality is that you now have 2 camps of players screaming across the river at each other: those who will contort rules for the sake of WAAC, and those who are the victims of WAAC, or are just bad players, and have lashed out against whole codices/races with their bitterness.

Those that actually do want to just play fun games are caught in the middle, because they still run into people from the 2 camps from time to time.

/end rant

While I don't have the codex infront of me. I would definently have to think that the rules were designed to mean an enemy IC not any IC. Although I can definently see a hellion grabing a buddy and getting him out of there right before that dread punches him.

Akroma06 wrote:Although I can definently see a hellion grabing a buddy and getting him out of there right before that dread punches him.

I don't know. I think I'd rather take a punch than be lifted by a grapple claw and dragged 3D6" across the board!
But that's me!

time wizard wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:Although I can definently see a hellion grabing a buddy and getting him out of there right before that dread punches him.

I don't know. I think I'd rather take a punch than be lifted by a grapple claw and dragged 3D6" across the board!
But that's me!

What if it's a falcon punch?

The snare and trap enemy leaders bit is fluff. I would let you, as it says independent characters, with no specifics on which side that IC needs to be.

Chuck Norris wrote:

time wizard wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:Although I can definently see a hellion grabing a buddy and getting him out of there right before that dread punches him.

I don't know. I think I'd rather take a punch than be lifted by a grapple claw and dragged 3D6" across the board!
But that's me!

What if it's a falcon punch?

Exactly a dread will kill. That would just hurt...which to the DE is a good thing (Kabalite Armor digs into them as well)

On topic: I still don't think I would be ok if I finally got the shadow field down on and archon and next turn cause I got so many guys there I'll do some serious damage to him and he goes flying away with some hellions. I think that this is a case of RAW vs RAI. I usually go with RAW but this time I would have to go with RAI.