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I had some ideas for Warhammer 8th Edition that would bring back to the game some of the importance of maneuvering, and balance out some of the unit types/rules a bit more. I present them here for everyone's comment and consideration. Please keep any replies constructive or at least civil, as I don't want to turn this into a pro/anti-8th Edition flame thread.


SkaerKrow’s Warhammer Fantasy 8.5

Movement
Charging a Fleeing Enemy – Charging units may not reform, even if they successfully charge a fleeing enemy unit. They remain facing the direction that they charged.

Moving Fleeing Units – If a fleeing unit would move into contact with a non-fleeing/unengaged enemy unit consisting of five or more models or any number of Monsters then the fleeing unit is immediately destroyed. When fleeing through smaller enemy units, the fleeing unit makes a Dangerous Terrain tests instead.

Magic
Irresistible Force – A casting attempt will only be subject to this rule if the casting roll included two or more 6s AND still met or exceeded the minimum casting value required for the spell. If the dice result is less than the casting value required to cast the spell then the spell fails as normal, and no Loss of Control roll is made.

Close Combat
Disruption – A unit is Disrupted if engaged in the Flank or Rear by any enemy unit that includes one or more rank of at least five models.

Steadfast – A unit that is Disrupted does not receive the benefit of the Steadfast rule.

Reforming from Defeat – A unit always applies the Break Test modifier to any attempts to reform after being defeated in a round of combat, even if the unit is Steadfast.

Overrun/Pursuit – A unit that makes an Overrun or Pursuit move during a turn may not Reform and remains facing the direction of the Overrun/Pursuit move.

Special Rules
Fast Cavalry – Units consisting exclusively of models with this rule also have the Hit and Run special rule. Models with the Fast Cavalry rule do not benefit from the Trample rule.

Fly – Units consisting exclusively of models with this rule also have the Hit and Run special rule.

Hit and Run – Before determining the combat result during a round of combat, a unit with this rule may attempt to Hit and Run. Make an Initiative Test for the unit. If successful then the unit immediately makes a Flee move, rallying automatically once the move is completed. Their opponent may not pursue the unit that made the Hit and Run move and remains in place (they may still make pursuit moves against any other enemies that might be fleeing from the same combat). If the Initiative Test is failed then the unit remains in combat and the combat result is determined as normal.

Skirmishers – Units consisting exclusively of models with this rule do not cause Panic in friendly models.

Trample – Models with this rule inflict a single bonus Impact Hit at the strength of their mount when charging a unit of Infantry, War Beasts or Swarms.

Troop Types
Cavalry and Monstrous Cavalry – Units of this type have the Trample special rule.

War Beasts – Units consisting exclusively of models of this type do not cause Panic in friendly models.

Command Groups
Champions and Challenges – Unit Champions may never issue Challenges, but may accept them.

Characters
(Battle Standard Bearer) Hold Your Ground! – Models within 12” of the Battle Standard Bearer may re-roll failed Break Tests, Rally Attempts and Psychology Tests. No other types of Leadership Test benefit from this rule.

War Machines
(Cannons) Bounce – If a Misfire is rolled when determining the distance that a Cannon shot bounces then the weapon does not fire at all this turn, but is free to fire normally during the following turn.

(Stone Throwers) Scatter – Shots from a Stone Thrower always scatter. If the Hit! result is rolled on the Scatter Dice, scatter the shot in the direction indicated by the arrow near the top of the Hit! symbol.

(Stone Thowers) Firing Indirectly – When a Stone Thrower fires indirectly, roll an additional D6 when determining the scatter distance and add this dice result to the number rolled on the Artillery Dice.


That's all, thanks for reading!

This... this is extremely concise and good, as far as I can tell. You've fixed Steadfast, so that it can be disrupted easier (making cav viable again), but not nerfed it completely (big units that don't get disrupted have definate staying power).
Your fast cav and skirmisher rules will really help Wood Elf players (if there are any left that haven't moved to WM/H or 40K), and your magic change I think is the only real change it needs (I had always hated magic in 8th, and wanted 2d3 for winds of magic, but your idea I think will nix the spamming of the lvl 6 spells you seem to always see much better).

I've only got 2 questions: Why does the Trample rule affect charges into War Beasts, and why does the Bounce misfire not cause a single hit/wound on the unit if it lands within the unit? (Just out of curiosity )

Well it seems to me that your trying to neuter warmachines, ranks and magic and turn it more into a 7th hybrid with some 8th perks. And in my mind that is not a good thing.

Why can't champs challenge? I've never run into that being a problem.
Why is a stone throwing hitting less than 28% of the time too accurate?

Most of it looks pretty good.
Cav got plenty of love, skirmisher could use more.

-Matt

@Dark Prince
Thanks! I didn't want to outright erase anything, but I did want to try to bring a few options closer together in terms of power/utility so that we see a bit more variety in the units that make their way to the table these days. I also wanted to entice back some players that felt that the game had gone away from unit tactics.

I added War Beasts as a potential Trample target because they're eligible for being hit by Stomp Attacks, which I took as something as a model for Trampling. Most War Beast models are also smaller than cavalry mounts (though there are exceptions), so I thought it was fitting that a horse could trample Giant Rats or Warhounds. For mounts like Wolves or Spiders, we're probably looking at something closer to a pounce than actual trampling.

The Cannon change is for balance, as our club has found that Cannons tend to dominate the battlefield with their power and reliability. Adding a second chance for them to fail (but not blow themselves up or be otherwise hampered) makes them less like Fantasy Lascannons and further reinforces the fact that black power weapons are still kind of unreliable in the Warhammer Fantasy setting.


@HawaiiMatt
I've seen a lot of games in which challenging Champions are basically used to box out small units that include characters, which seems less like a challenge and more like a bit of gamesmanship. By removing the ability for "mere" Champions to draw out Lords and Heroes from combats, that element is lost (but Champions can still step forward heroically to take on the challenge of a mighty foe). As for Stone Throwers, with the loss of Partials (which is a good change since that was a fiddly mechanic), they're just a little too accurate. This isn't a big deal when you're talking about basic small template, S6/3 Stone Throwers, but once you get into Empire Mortars, Trebuchets, Rocket Batteries, Hellcannon shots and Dwarf Stone Throwers with Piercing, which make up the majority of the Stone Throwers that you're actually likely to see, you run into situations where one or two shots can reliably cripple larger units of Toughness 3 infantry, which isn't particularly fair or balanced.

Hmmm. I agree with your Trample rule (I was just unfamiliar with what models were War Beasts as compared to Monstrous Cavalry or whatever), but misfiring on a cannon bounce usually will just kill 1 guy, so while it'll suck to lose a Blood Knight or whatever elite model in a small unit it pegs, it's just 1 model.

@Ralin: I think he's trying to "neuter" warmachines to avoid character assassinating ("Why yes, of course i can peg the single guy on foot with a trebuchet built by ignorant peasants from a quarter-mile away!"), since they'll still wreck units that they hit.
As for ranks, it's simply trying to avoid making Steadfast the end-all, be-all of WHFB. In my local club, at least, you never see an amry comprised of small, elite bands or several small units, even if that might be a tactically feasible option, because Steadfast means the small units will never, ever be able to even possibly stop the unit without a 4 turn battle of attrition (With a very few rare exceptions like Beastmen Minotaurs). With the new rules, it seems that the OP has made it still a powerful option, but forced you (like before) to actually defend the 5 model wide 10 rank deep unit from flank charges in order to protect it's ability to keep Steadfast.
And finall, Magic in WHFB 8th is broken. Deal with it. Any one of the dozens of threads bitching about it all seem to conclude heavily that something needs to be done to nerf magic somewhat. The OP's change seems to be the simplest and yet most feasible change to magic I've seen yet.

@Hawaiimatt: I think champs challenging is annoying simply because it draws a Lord out of using his high CC ability to kill off a bunch of weaker models. While the CR is still the same overall, if he overkills by 3 or 4 wounds, that could have been 3 or 4 dead infantry that would probably have been lower I, and not gotten attacks (and kills for CR) against the unit.
Most armies have cheap enough heroes that if you really need to challenge the enemy Grand High Poohbah, you can spend 50ish points and not only draw off his attacks, but get a tougher unit that could actually kill said Poohbah and cause a bigger effect on the CR.

That is true about the "stuck" cannonball only knocking out a single model, but if it's a War Machine, Monster or Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry unit, losing one model can still be exceptionally damaging.

Exactly, but I think sticking and only killing 1 guy is a good nerf anyways. Cannons are designed, imo, for killing small numbers of elite units, as they have a much harder time pegging and seriously damaging a ranked unit, especially a wide-yet-shallow unit.

If you're running a combat hero, and worried about champs pulling him out, why in the world wouldn't you run your own unit champ to accept the challenge of the opposing champ?
Seems like a non-issue to me.
Unless the complaint is, "I'm too cheap to buy a unit champ, and I hate it when my opponent does."

On the topic of stone throwers, what you're saying is that you're crippling stone throwers to cripple mortars? Dwarves pay quite a few points for a pair of "good" stone throwers, and 300 points in shooting (S4 and accurate) should do some decent damage for the 1-2 turns they get to shoot.
Mortars, trebs, and hellcannons are under-priced. It's not a problem with the stone thrower rule, it's a problem with the army book.
O&G stone throwers, and tomb king stone throwers aren't exactly dominating, are they?


Here's my 8.5 wishlist (not repeating anything already stated)

Close Combat: If you are touching an enemy, or in position to make a supporting attack, you may attack. You can choose to attack any character or unit champ in base to base with you, OR strike against rank and file models even if you only touch characters/champs.

Stone Throwers, Cannons, and Templates: Determine the number of hits as normal. Distribute the hits as per normal shooting. (so no sniping characters out of units that have 5 or more rank and file).

Magic: All Spells that target every model in a unit allow for a look out roll.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:Magic: All Spells that target every model in a unit allow for a look out roll.

YES. God, I hate Dwellers/Flames of the Phoenix (Or whatever ridiculous BS the HE have). Undead play best in big, solid blocks of unmoving infantry, with enough ranks to win CR. Guess what kills a big unit of slow, weak, skellies? You got it! This is why I really want the "Irresistable force only works if it hits the needed value" rule.

Stone Throwers are not at all crippled by scattering, that's a bit hyperbolic. Just because the shot scatters does not mean that it will not hit, though it's less likely to consistently hit units dead center, and it makes it more desirable to shoot a stone thrower into the midst of several units, so that you have a better chance of the scatter being mitigated by a target rich field. A catapult slinging large chunks of rock is not a precise weapon, after all.

A compromise however, could be that on a roll of a "Hit," the shot scatters an amount of inches equal to half the number indicated by the Artillery dice. That makes the Stone Thrower less accurate without completely removing any chance for a roughly on target shot.

Characters on Monstrous Mounts can't take a Champion, and having to take a Champion on every unit that might include a character just to protect yourself from being called out by an enemy Champion again smacks of gamesmanship. Honestly, the Challenge rules in Warhammer have always struck me as being exceptionally poor, and if I had my druthers I'd just pull them out entirely. However, I didn't compose this list of changes based on my own wants, but on the input/complaints that I've heard most consistently from my own gaming club, from tournament players that I know and from the Internet at large.

First, you don't actually have to put your name at the top of the proposed rules, we can actually turn our eyes to the left to see who wrote the thread. That always struck me as pompous to have your name multiple times in a forum post.

DukeRustfield's Response:

I don't like the movement rules as they seem to nearly cancel each other out and I don't see the benefit. If you charge, especially a fleeing unit, it's not like you become a slowed train. Could you imagine a street mob running into a wall because it couldn't change directions?

Disruption needs to take into account not all flankers will be smaller units. MI and Monsters and such.

Overrun/Pursuit shouldn't be a crippling penalty. It's a reward. If you're mopping up the few survivors you shouldn't be stuck staring off into space. As written, in many instances you'd let them go because you don't want your unit to be flanked itself.

Fly is damn nice as it is and I don't think it needs more.

Hit and Run, not sure how this works, I know you're taking a 40K concept, but you didn't mention the owner has to make the charge. Also, 40K has a lot more ranged attacks. Rally should definately be separate.

Fleeing war beasts would definately cause panic

I'll echo the above. Unit champs are champs. Yes, it's gamesmanship to use your expendible unit to hold up their non. Just like it would be gamesmanship for him to use his non-expendible unit to beat the snot out of your unit. The whole game works like that.

I think you're pretty hard on war machines. They're nice weapons for sure, but I don't think they need that much.


My suggestion is to break out a few related concepts and really work them over. There's a lot here and I think you're getting at some good stuff.

Make the Stonethrower change.

Just let them shoot into combat again.

Stone throwers are hardly worth taking now. ~27% chance of hitting a target, and you want to add a 2-10" scatter (or 1-5" scatter) on to that narrow hit chance?

Again, the problems you are fixing isn't stone throwers, but mortars, rocket batteries, trebuchets, and 150-250 points rune'd up dwarf things.


I don't see where you're coming from with unit champs.
You can't possibly have a unit champ in your units with attached fighting heroes, but somehow your opponent has a unit champ in every unit your fighting hero rolls into?
Yeah, the unit champ will stall a chaos lord on dragon, FOR ONE ROUND. And it's a stall at best, the character on dragon should be wracking up 7 points of combat res (6 wounds + charging), so you're beating most units by 3. On round two, you're back to tearing apart rank and file.

Take the champs ability to challenge away, and you're putting more power into Large flying monsters, and making the only speed bump be Hero choices, not unit champs.

SkaerKrow wrote:Stone Throwers are not at all crippled by scattering, that's a bit hyperbolic. Just because the shot scatters does not mean that it will not hit, though it's less likely to consistently hit units dead center, and it makes it more desirable to shoot a stone thrower into the midst of several units, so that you have a better chance of the scatter being mitigated by a target rich field. A catapult slinging large chunks of rock is not a precise weapon, after all.

A compromise however, could be that on a roll of a "Hit," the shot scatters an amount of inches equal to half the number indicated by the Artillery dice. That makes the Stone Thrower less accurate without completely removing any chance for a roughly on target shot.

You could just look at the current rule for indirect fire, and have the scatter reduced by the unit's BS on the roll of a hit. When you fire indirectly, you could rule that rolling a hit achieve nothing, it always scatters the amount rolled.

darkPrince010 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:Magic: All Spells that target every model in a unit allow for a look out roll.

YES. God, I hate Dwellers/Flames of the Phoenix (Or whatever ridiculous BS the HE have). Undead play best in big, solid blocks of unmoving infantry, with enough ranks to win CR. Guess what kills a big unit of slow, weak, skellies? You got it! This is why I really want the "Irresistable force only works if it hits the needed value" rule.

Who's fault is that? The undead players thats who. Its not my fault as a HE player that you dont take a scroll or rely so heavily on your deathstar. If you hid your doom lord in a unit I see no reason why I cant just take the entire unit on with my magic, its better than my fragile expensive elves slamming into you and hoping I can kill your vampire. Also if I am I-Forcing every spell I cast there is a good chance I do a ton of damage to my mage and his own units.

Also the more I read this the more it seems that the OP just had a few bad games against warmachines, magic and big blocks and thinks we should change the game to make it easier for him. If you have ever fired a trebuchet or something akin to it I can tell you it does not always miss the intended target. Also what would the point of a champ be after this 'improvement'? For that extra attack? Yah I think I'm going keep my 15 points thanks.....

With Teklas? Seriously, HE aren't broken, but as soon as you toss in Teklas, the IF arguement goes out the window ("Miscast? I don't think so! LOLOLOLOL!").
I fully admit that those spells are the main ways to deal with big slow units, but unfortunately for VC, big slow units are all you have, otherwise CR eats you alive.

It's just that magic atm is so damn powerful AND easy to use that it's not a "You may lose units to spells like Dwellers or Purple Sun," but rather "You will lose units to Dweller and Purple Sun." Spending 50ish pts on a level 1 expendable wizard you can blow up with a IF and destroy 500 pts worth or more of units isn't strategy, it's a glaring flaw in the game. Sorta like if you can make a Field Goal in football (American) from the 50 yard line, you win 50 points or something similar.

If you are going to nerf Steadfast that much, at least make it so that A) the disrupting unit must be at least 10 models AND B) the unit must be engaged to the front as well.

Alternatively, I had offered a return to Unit strength. A Unitstrength of 10 is required to disrupt: so that's 5 cav models, 4 ogres, etc.

I agree with Matt on the warmachines. The issue is less the normal stuff, and more things like mortars. But then, he and i play dwarves, so...
>.>
<.<

I also like the removal of "Look out, sir!" for larger units. It's a better way of "nerfing" warmachines without really nerfing them.

IMO warmachines are, with the current iteration of the rules, the best way to handle hordes apart from spells (or hordes of your own, unless your horde isn't up to the challenge). With that in mind, the removal of "LO,S!" is a good way to to fix that. Furthermore, I might only say that "LOS" applies when a template SCATTERS onto an IC, not when it is placed on that model, as the shifting nature of a unit should make character sniping impossible, but chance oft provides in war.

I would also offer a return to 7th ed march blocking. This rerollable leadership to ignore marching stuff is rediculous. I miss my Fast Cav having a purpose. :( Although your proposal to allow units to get destroyed when they run through enemy units once more is a fine one, IMO.

darkPrince010 wrote:
It's just that magic atm is so damn powerful AND easy to use that it's not a "You may lose units to spells like Dwellers or Purple Sun," but rather "You will lose units to Dweller and Purple Sun." Spending 50ish pts on a level 1 expendable wizard you can blow up with a IF and destroy 500 pts worth or more of units isn't strategy, it's a glaring flaw in the game. Sorta like if you can make a Field Goal in football (American) from the 50 yard line, you win 50 points or something similar.

So a 1/6 chance of getting the spell you need for your 50+ point 'assassin?'. Tecilis is hardcore I will admit but thats why you dont play with SC, if you do then expect a heavy list coming at cha

I prefer a bit more strategy for my WHFB. Hell, I personally think if your army can't survive w/out minimal if any magic, it's a crappy list.

Too many lists I've seen have basically been "Bunker the wizard until he can get close enough to nuke the enemy." It's a point-and-shoot strategy, and it requires no strategy or tactical considerations apart from the above bunker. 1 in 6 just means get 6 wizards. 300 points for at least 500 pts of dead enemies, without having to apply strategic thinking? Pretty damn boring imo...

And I will counter with three cannons and something to kill your wizard before he nukes me. The game balances itself you just have to figure out how.

But should a "strategy" game like WHFB be more like an actual battle simulation, with tactics and movement, or a big game of Rock, Paper, Magic? I feel that current 8th edition is more of the latter, and as such needs the changes similar to what the OP proposed.

I guess I wouldn't have as much of an issue with the Rock, Paper Magic scenario (Or in this case, Shooting, Combat, and Magic, with the assumption Shooting>Magic>Combat>Shooting), if armies had a better balance between them.

VC have no Shooting, meaning Magic is very effective against them (No, more magic defenses will not fix this: 8th limits you to a single Dispel Scroll, and a few similar yet overpriced options that weaken the rest of your army simply to occasionally prevent spells, and all the dispel dice in the world can't stop an IF from nuking with a wizard).
Similarly, Brettonians have strong combat, but markedly weaker shooting (with the exception of the trebuchets in my experience) and even weaker magic, meaning shooting armies would (In this example) have a much better chance to defeat them, with very few options if any to prevent this scenario.

Armies that have strong choices in all three categories (HE, Lizardmen are a bit weak in shooting but have the strongest magic in the game to compensate, Skaven have weak-ish magic but the ability to tarpit any enemy combat armies, etc) tend to be able to defeat those that do not much more easily, and are much more forgiving of tactical errors (Similar to SW, Orks, or other SM chapters for 40K).

If the previous armies had either better abilities or better defenses in those areas, it would be okay as you could plan your armies to compensate for that weakness. But for VC in particular, the only tactic you have vs Wizard nuking is to pray to the Emperor that he for some reason leaves his bunker unit of expendable troops or performs a similarly stupid error. Otherwise, VC have no strong fast cav to stop the unit effectively (Dire Wolves are woefully underpowered and little better than bats at warmachine hunting), no strong infantry to kill the wizard's bunker (Skellies/ghouls die much faster to strong magic than most units simply due to them being weaker), and a weak magic phase that won't stop an IF nuke.

The VC player doesn't have the luxury of IFing all the time, as this will kill their General if they were stupid enough to overload him with PD, and they weaken the entire army by being forced to use lower PD for spells, making them easier to dispel. If you roll doubles for Winds of Magic, you could very easily not cast any of the spells you need off because you can't afford to IF the spell and risk your essential casters, while the enemy can easily risk this and cripple your army. This is not a balanced risk, and VC do not have a way to counteract this in their army book.

Claim this is simply bad generalship all you'd like, but the VC army book simply has a poor defensive magic phase, and a low-powered offensive phase, and both of these cripple a melee-only army in magic-centric 8th with the Wizard Nuke army strategy.

darkPrince010 wrote:
Claim this is simply bad generalship all you'd like, but the VC army book simply has a poor defensive magic phase, and a low-powered offensive phase, and both of these cripple a melee-only army in magic-centric 8th with the Wizard Nuke army strategy.

Poor magic defense?
3 arcane items give +1 to dispel, 1 arcane item stores a die, core choice gives enemies -1 to cast, and rare choice drains power dice.

-Matt

darkPrince010 wrote:
Armies that have strong choices in all three categories (HE, Lizardmen are a bit weak in shooting but have the strongest magic in the game to compensate, Skaven have weak-ish magic but the ability to tarpit any enemy combat armies, etc) tend to be able to defeat those that do not much more easily, and are much more forgiving of tactical errors (Similar to SW, Orks, or other SM chapters for 40K).

Read to there and almost choked. High Elves have good shooting and Lizardmen are a bit weak at it? I don't know about you, but last time I looked skinks, chameleon skinks and salamanders are way better than any shooting unit that High Elves have access to. Also, how is High Elves "forgiving of tactical errors"? If you get caught out of position you're going to lose your entire army. The entire army is built around units supporting eachother. WoC, who lack any serious shooting aside from the Hellcannon, are way more forgiving IMO, as they just won't die, either because they've got good defenses or because Marauders are 4 points each.

Hmmm. Apparently I need to catch up on my WHFB then...

Still, the ease of casting IF means that all the magical defense in the world won't help against the wizard nuke.

@Almightywalrus: I guess I was trying to say that VC have no way of reliably killing an enemy wizard in a bunker apart from grinding his unit down with infantry blocks, and their army playstyle with large blocks of infantry is stupidly vulnerable to Dwellers-type spells that will just ream said blocks of infantry.

@Hawaiimatt: 3 Items? What apart from the Staff gives the dispel bonus in their army book? The Corpse Cart ability is only for enemy casters within 24", and the Black Coach only does that 1/6 of the time. I admit it's not poor, but it still will have nil effect on a Wizard IF nuke, which is by far the biggest risk to the army imo.

EDIT: I guess most of my gripes from my previous post are with the setup of the VC army book and it's typical lists instead of the OP's changes to 8th edition. On that topic, I feel the change to Magic will make it slightly harder to Wizard Nuke. Shooting wizards isn't as easy (imo) as you seem to believe it is: They are almost always hidden in a bunker unit, one that can survive the resulting roll on the IF chart, and Look Out, Sir! means that you can't snipe them out of said unit with artillery. In addition, some armies (VC) simply don't have the ability to shoot wizards out of units, putting them at a disadvantadge as compared to other armies. Magic should still be important in 8th, but not to the exclusion of all else. Major spells should tilt the playing field in your favor, not win the game for you in a single turn.

Ralin Givens wrote:Also the more I read this the more it seems that the OP just had a few bad games against warmachines, magic and big blocks and thinks we should change the game to make it easier for him. If you have ever fired a trebuchet or something akin to it I can tell you it does not always miss the intended target. Also what would the point of a champ be after this 'improvement'? For that extra attack? Yah I think I'm going keep my 15 points thanks.....

I recently assisted with a major tournament and reviewed nearly one hundred army lists spread across every army book. When you notice that most armies run (and spam) the exact same options, it reveals some internal balance problems between what you see, and just as telling, what you do not. Couple that with talking to people who I respect about the results/particulars of their games, and listening to people in general about what they like and do not like about 8th, and the result is this document. If I would have factored my own experiences with the game into these changes then all I would have done was remove the Watchtower Scenario from the book and turn all buildings into impassable terrain . There's no need for the dismissiveness or cynicism, it doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.

Matt, I'm sorry that you've had bad luck with your Stone Throwers. However, I've talked to Orc and Goblin and Beastmen players (that's right, the lowly Cygor) that have consistently told me that their Stone Throwers are their army MVPs. To be certain, the upgraded Stone Throwers like the Mortar and Trebuchet are bigger balance culprits, but when I take into account how many armies have "basic" Stone Throwers (Orcs & Goblins, Beastmen, Tomb Kings) versus those that have superior Stone Throwers (Empire, Dwarfs, Warriors of Chaos, Bretonnians), and how even the basic Stone Throwers perform exceedingly well, I feel pretty confident in their need to be addressed. You're right though, making Stone Throwers always scatter the full distance is too harsh. I prefer the half-distance scatter on a Hit roll.

Duke, I was just stepping up to take the blame on what is usually a less than popular topic . Mobs of people, running full on, do not change directions on a dime. Even trained soldiers, once the charge is sounded, can lose formation coherency and discipline. When we start talking about savages like Beastmen, Flagellants or Orcs, that problem becomes even more pronounced. When a unit chases down an enemy in combat, they don't just immediately destroy them. They have to run down stragglers and then scatter the survivors of the unit proper. It makes no sense that the unit would then immediately be able to adopt a new formation without giving their opponents any recourse to respond. Perhaps you would decide to let your opponent flee without pursuing them, because that opponent positioned their forces in such as fashion to support their units with overlapping charge lanes. This is entirely acceptable, as strategy games should reward players for using sound strategy, not just for rolling well and picking a fierce list.

Fleeing War Beasts should not cause Panic. At best they should cause a unit to be bogged down if fled through, as they get all of the fear-maddened animals out of their formation. No warrior, no matter how daft, should run from a battle because a unit of dogs or giant rats dies or gets run off. War Beasts are already marginal performers in most armies, good only as pursuit troops (but a liability because of how easy they are to destroy). The removal of the panic liability makes them more desirable as a unit for chasing off fleeing troops, and also gives them some added function as reliable screening units.

The problem with stone throwers is that a perfect hit on a block of 25 or more 20mm bases, nets you 21 S3 hits, and 1 S9. That perfect hit comes up 27% of the time on your first shot, Less often on turns 2 and on.
You're looking at ~10 wounds vs S3 with saves, a less then 1 with no save.
Against T4, 7 wounding hits, + center hole, best case.

As for Everybody loving them, could you post a link to some actual data, I don't believe it. All I've heard is average at best, top O&G performers are big un hordes, black orc hordes, fanatics and manglers. Tomb Kings seem to be liking tomb guard, monsters and casket. People will give examples of them being a top performing in a single game, "Yeah, I got 20 hits on a witch elf unit at killed 16!", but the reason why you're hearing those stories is for every one of those, is 4 stories of, I missed, on turn 1, scattered on turn 2, and got a few kills, then I was in combat and didn't shoot the rest of the game.

Where's the fix for flame style temples like salamanders?

Here's a link that shows how many units get covered.
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85880


On the topic of Fleeing warbeasts, these aren't "animals". They are fantastically large creatures that are semi-intelligent/extremely well trained. We don't have a warbeast in the game that is comparable to anything in real life. IMO, warbeasts should all be skirmishers, but that's not exactly a small change in the game.
As for warbeasts being ineffective, have you fought against large rat packs before? ~150 points is 28 S3 attacks on the charge (at WS3 Init4).



-Matt

Don't forget leaving out the times when it blows itself up on Turn 1, handing your opponent VPs before they've even gone.


Not that it's happened to me in almost every single game I've played or anything...

I think you see people take war machines for the same reason you see them take infantry. It is one of the main unit types in the game and a hard counter to monsters and solo heroes. And it's one of the only units that after a few turns has the ability to simply becomes useless. People don't take calvalry or charriots anymore cuz they just aren't as good in 8th.

With the ability to not reform and run down, games will take longer and it makes a bunch of crippled units on the table which not even the owner wants to do much with. "Yay, 3 Halbidiers!"

I think some MB are good, some are overpriced, but it's not a global problem with the unit type so much as individual issues.

Edit: Got some of the WB and MB mixed up.

Oh, add another to the list.
Half victory points for any unit that's lost half of it's start wounds, or that is fleeing at the end of the game.

-Matt