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After perusing the web for a while, I'd like to raise a point I haven't seen yet for saves vs HG shooting.

The HG special rules are verbatim the same as Tau Smart Missile System. The Tau FAQ states that cover saves can only be taken vs the SMS when not based on LOS. Vehicles can only get cover saves if they are Obscured or from other special rules. Obscured is only available from LOS being 50% blocked or special rules.

So, based on precedent, vehicles should never get a cover save from HG unless they pop smoke, go flat out, kff, etc.

Agreee/disagree?

[Edit: Added rules for clarity]


Tau codex, "The smart missile system can engage any target in range regardless of whether there is a line of sight to it or not. The target can count the benefits of cover they are in, or are touching if it lies between them and the firer."

Tyranid codex, "The impaler cannon can shoot any target in range, regardless of whether there is line of sight to it or not. The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the Hive Guard. Vehicles are always hit on the armor value facing the Hive Guard."

Tau FAQ:
Q: How are cover saves worked out for smart missile
systems and seeker missiles as they do not need line of
sight? (p27, 30)
A: The target will only receive cover saves that are not
based on line of sight. This would include when at least
half the unit is in area terrain; or a vehicle with wargear or
a special rule that means they are obscurred.

Disagree. The rules are not the same.

In order to get a cover save against an Impaler cannon from terrain, the model has to be in or touching the terrain.

A model can get a cover save from whatever other special rules it might have: smoke, flat-out, etc.

There doesn't seem to be any kind of conflict going on here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Disagree. The rules are not the same.

Tau codex, "The smart missile system can engage any target in range regardless of whether there is a line of sight to it or not. The target can count the benefits of cover they are in, or are touching if it lies between them and the firer."

Tyranid codex, "The impaler cannon can shoot any target in range, regardless of whether there is line of sight to it or not. The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the Hive Guard. Vehicles are always hit on the armor value facing the Hive Guard."

[Edit: Added second response]

DarknessEternal wrote:In order to get a cover save against an Impaler cannon from terrain, the model has to be in or touching the terrain.

A model can get a cover save from whatever other special rules it might have: smoke, flat-out, etc.

There doesn't seem to be any kind of conflict going on here.

The conflict is that vehicles don't get cover saves from terrain, they get it from LOS. People argue that you should get a cover save from the HG if you can see <51% of it.

There is no way for a vehicle to be less than 51% visible without involving terrain (models are impassable terrain, before anyone tries that one). So the LoS argument has no legs to stand on.

The FAQ clearly states LOS is ignored for purposes of determining cover saves.

[Edit] I see what you're saying, but not sure if you're in agreement or disagreement. I'm reading it very ambigously.

I'm saying that vehicles will only get cover saves against Impaler Cannons if they are being granted that cover save by something other than terrain.

Not quite true.

If vehicles are in area terrain or touching cover between them and the hive guard they will still get cover saves.

Jangustus wrote:Not quite true.

If vehicles are in area terrain or touching cover between them and the hive guard they will still get cover saves.

Area terrain does NOT automatically grant cover saves to vehicles. Check out page 62, second bullet point on the left.

I had a guy in a tornament argue that even if I pop smoke I would not get the save, as I was not in Area Terrain.

The rule can be confusing at times. You ~clearly~ get saves from smoke, flat out, etc.

oops. Yep Grakmar you are correct, to correct myself being in area terrain can (but doesn't always) give cover to vehicles from the hive guard.

Yes, cover saves from smoke etc. are always allowed, as they are not *effects of cover* but special rules.

Jangustus wrote: being in area terrain can (but doesn't always) give cover to vehicles from the hive guard.

How so? Area terrain has nothing to do with cover saves for vehicle. It is 100% based on LOS. The FAQ rules you ignore LOS.

Yes, so if you are in area terrain and covered more than 50% you get cover from the hive guard, per the rulebook rules for vehicle cover, and the impaler cannon rules for when they can take cover.

Jangustus wrote:Yes, so if you are in area terrain and covered more than 50% you get cover from the hive guard, per the rulebook rules for vehicle cover, and the impaler cannon rules for when they can take cover.

You can never be covered more than 50%, the FAQ states you ignore LOS.

The Tau FAQ? What does that have to do with Tyranids?

Exactly. You cannot apply something from one codex to another. My answer above is correct for the impaler cannon. Which the Tau FAQ has no bearing upon.

Both weapons have the same wording, so you're saying there's no precedent there?

Jangustus wrote:Exactly. You cannot apply something from one codex to another. My answer above is correct for the impaler cannon. Which the Tau FAQ has no bearing upon.

Rules worded identical work identical, independent from the place where they are written. If a tau and a tyranid rule are worded the exact same, but only one was clarified, it obviously applies to the other, too.

If only one was clarified (changed slightly actually) then it only applies to that one. I know RAI would tend to indicate that we should use that as a basis, and given the mess that is the tyranid FAQ maybe we should.

Just not convinced it is completely RAW.

Jangustus wrote:If only one was clarified (changed slightly actually) then it only applies to that one. I know RAI would tend to indicate that we should use that as a basis, and given the mess that is the tyranid FAQ maybe we should.

Just not convinced it is completely RAW.

How is that not completely RAW? The rule, which applies to both weapons, was clarified.

This isn't psychic hood vs shadows, two different rules with the same intent being ruled differently.

If that's the case, the Eldar FAQ has no bearing on SitW for anything except Hive Tyrants, who get hosed.

Since vehicles:

A) Do not benefit from being within Area Terrain

B) Require LoS to be 50% obscured to get a cover save and

C) Impaler Cannon disregards cover for LoS purposes

then yes, basically a Vehicle can never take a cover save against an Impaler Cannon or a Smart Missile System unless it has a piece of Wargear or special rule that gives it a cover save.

I could see a slight argument for whether or not a Vehicle that is touching a large barricade which covered it 50% and is between it and the Hive Guard could MAYBE get a cover save, but I'm too lazy to look at the BRB right now and check and see if it's possible for a Vehicle to benefit from cover in this fashion.

A facing of a vehicle which is 50% hidden is obscured. Obscured means it benefits from terrain covering it exactly like any other unit.

So basically a vehicle touching the terrain that's obscuring it could take the cover save.

How? A vehicle cannot be obscured if LOS is ignored.

The only 2 arguments I've heard are;

1) The FAQ does not apply to Tyranids because it's Tau. While this is a somewhat valid point, the fact that both weapons are worded the same and the HG has the last line added (which was only present to the Tau from the FAQ) points to both rules being treated as identical.

2) As it is written your vehicle will get a cover save if it is in/touching the object providing it 50% obscurement. This is a valid argument IF you also maintain the first argument. If you believe the FAQ sets a precedent, then there is no way a vehicle could become obscured without special rules.

My error, of course 2) is right, the FAQ supersedes the actual RAW.

Simple :

"The impaler cannon can shoot any target in range, regardless of whether there is line of sight to it or not. The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the Hive Guard (THIS PART IS ONLY APPLICABLE FOR NON-VEHICLES UNITS, AS THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN CLAIM THE COVER SAVE FOR BEING IN TERRAIN, THE VEHICLES CANNOT CLAIM OBSCURE SAVE BECAUSE IMPALER CANNON DO NOT NEED LOS). Vehicles are always hit on the armor value facing the Hive Guard."

So , no cover save for Vehicles apart of KFF and other equip.

god.ra wrote:Simple :

"The impaler cannon can shoot any target in range, regardless of whether there is line of sight to it or not. The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the Hive Guard (THIS PART IS ONLY APPLICABLE FOR NON-VEHICLES UNITS, AS THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN CLAIM THE COVER SAVE FOR BEING IN TERRAIN, THE VEHICLES CANNOT CLAIM OBSCURE SAVE BECAUSE IMPALER CANNON DO NOT NEED LOS). Vehicles are always hit on the armor value facing the Hive Guard."

So , no cover save for Vehicles apart of KFF and other equip.

But RAW it doesnt care that a vehicle can't claim a cover save from being inside area terrain, and that it must be 50% obscured. So once again RAW it's clearly if the vehicle is in terrain, and is obscured than it gets a save

god.ra - again, RAW states the opposite to your point. If you are touching terrain and LOS is blocked, then you get cover - whether you are a vehicle or not.

However, the Tau FAQ indicates that LOS-based cover does not apply. Being obscured by terrain is LOS-based.

Exactly, the Tau FAQ indicates...

So although it is very strong RAI, it is not strictly RAW.