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Earlier this week I picked up Courage and Honor, by Graham McNeill. I bought it because it featured the army I play, the Tau Empire. Overall I've enjoyed the story so far, but one thing has caught me off guard. The Ultramarines, the space marine chapter that is the focus of the book, come off as nigh invulnerable, bromantic, ultra-men. I am about half way though the book and only one has been "killed" so far and that because he was in the center of an explosion that brought down a whole set of communication arrays (the other marines that were right next to the explosion only got a few cuts and nicks), and it crushed his legs but left him still very much alive. Later the main character, a Captain, charged a group of Fire Warriors in rapid fire range, with the added firing support of Crisis suits equipped with both plasma rifles and burst cannons, without a single casualty (I think the commander would have suffer a wound, but he has some FNP wargear). The book then goes on to aggrandize the Captain's assault against Tau, which felt undeserved since even a lowly guardsman would seem like a god against a Fire Warrior in melee.

I understand that the Ultramarines are the heroes of the book, but when they come off as this powerful it kinda breaks my suspension of disbelief. Especially when I have faced Space Marines with my tau army and even terminators seem easier to kill than the marines written about in this book. Do the other books portray the Space Marines as invulnerable warriors presented here?

Basically, if it is about Space Marines, or the main character is a Space Marine, 9 out of 10 times the answer to your question is yes, as most will be nigh impossible to lay low.

Begel Dverl wrote:Basically, if it is about Space Marines, or the main character is a Space Marine, 9 out of 10 times the answer to your question is yes, as most will be nigh impossible to lay low.

Are there any books that don't have space marines? I think I've seen some IG ones at my local book store, but are any books written from a non human perspective?

The tabletop portrayal of SM is not even close to what they are supposed to be in fluff (the background).

Not even the half-joking "movie space marines" WD article was close to their äctual" portrayal in fluff.

The 40k novels (93% revolving around marine bolterporn fanwank) stick pretty much to the same format.

Psychosaur wrote:Are there any books that don't have space marines?

Fortunately, yes - but not many.

But there are also some novels about the Imperial Guard, some Inquisitors, an Arbites Enforcer, the Mechanicus and even the SoB. Not really sure if there's more.

Psychosaur wrote:I think I've seen some IG ones at my local book store, but are any books written from a non human perspective?

I've only heard of "The Eldar Prophecy", but these books are written by Cassern S. Goto (who takes even more liberties from canon than most BL writers) and - from what actual readers have said - might be a bit iffy regarding their contents. I've not read them myself, but apparently there's some weird stuff going on inside. Best you look out for some reviews.
There's also "Path of the Warrior", though. Another Eldar book, this time written by Gav Thorpe.

Ah! And then there's "Deff Skwadron" - a graphic novel about Orks. A very light and humoristic read (well, it's Orks!).

chromedog wrote:Not even the half-joking "movie space marines" WD article was close to their äctual" portrayal in fluff.

wat

The Movie Marines wasn't just "half" joking, and not even Space Marines are actually invincible. Hard to kill, sure, but not nearly as hard as usually portrayed in "their" novels.

Actually, chromedog's right. The GW article, now edited for 5th edition over on BoLS, is supposed to be what Marines - both Loyalist and Traitor/Renegade - actually are in the 'fluff'.

The Marines in-game have been balanced to make sure that you have to buy enough models in-game to support GW. It wouldn't make any business sense (that's weird, associating GW with any sort of common sense) if you only had to purchase 10-20 models for a single army, and be able to play a 2000 pt game without a worry.

FFG's Deathwatch further support this, since a party of Marines can cut through hordes of enemies in the blink of an eye.

infinite_array wrote:Actually, chromedog's right. The GW article, now edited for 5th edition over on BoLS, is supposed to be what Marines - both Loyalist and Traitor/Renegade - actually are in the 'fluff'.

Not really. I've actually heard this a lot - but after having read the article myself I get the impression that a number of people (usually "Astartes enthusiasts") haven't registered a certain part, namely:

"Thankfully, most people understand the concept of dramatic license, an amusing little technique that involves exaggerating or ignoring facts, physical flaws and general plausability to keep things entertaining. Space Marines are embellished in fiction, where their heroism and invincibility are accentuated."



There's a reason for why the list is called Movie Marines and not Realistic Marines or Canon Marines or whatever. They're Hollywood action heroes there. Heck, the list even has Stunt Doubles.

infinite_array wrote:FFG's Deathwatch further support this, since a party of Marines can cut through hordes of enemies in the blink of an eye.

FFG's Deathwatch also has a Space Marines naked fist do more damage than a plasma shot to the face and makes them completely invincible against a lot of things they are not meant to be immune to.

The RPG is as much a victim of the above quoted "dramatic license" as the novels, especially given how its designers likened it to movies such as "300". Which is in itself a pretty cool thing, but should not be mistaken for realism.

infinite_array wrote:The Marines in-game have been balanced to make sure that you have to buy enough models in-game to support GW.

Of course. Which, naturally, goes for any army in 40k. The IG doesn't usually show up with a single artillery piece as well. I'm not referring to the tabletop stats, for I'll assume that everyone agrees that they could only be used for very rough comparisons (meaning that something that has lower/higher stats in the TT should be worse/better in the fluff as well - by how much is a different topic).

Dan Abnett's IG books are good, but they do suffer from the same problem as the Space Marine book you are talking about as they go on. In any case, the First Omnibus is well worth picking up and is mostly pretty good- some heroics but nothing too crazy.
Abnett also has two series of Inquisitorial books that I would strongly recommend, they are some of the best 40K novels I have read.
15 Hours is a short Imperial Gaurd novel which sticks very closely to the fluff, I think.

Oh, almost forgot - there's also something about the Imperial Navy!

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Relentless.html

I could also recommend the short story anthology "Dark Imperium" - whilst, again, focused on the IoM, it does at least provide insight into nearly every aspect of it.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Imperium_%28Anthology%29

Read the Eisenhorn Trilogy. It's what got me into 40k. For the most part it is well written and doesn't portray anything too one sided. (For a 40k novel anyways). I also second the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. At times they do some. . . extraordinary thing. . . I'm looking at you Mkol.

Try to avoid most of the space marine novels. Personally I am always left with a bad taste in my mouth after reading them.

The Eisenhorn trilogy.

Read Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver. Fantastically written, great characters, and the marines involved are certainly neither heroes nor invincible.

The Ciaphas Cain series, by Sandy Mitchell. (Seven books so far, several short stories.)

Scourge the Heretic, by Sandy Mitchell. (Just the one.)

The Gaunts Ghosts series, by Dan Abnett. (A gajillion books.)

The Ravenor series, and the Eisenhorn series, both by Dan Abnett. (A trilogy, two short stories.)

Check out the short story collection Let the Galaxy Burn. The majority of those stories aren't about Space Marines.

There's many, many books which aren't about Space Marines. And yes, Space Marines are intended to be unstoppable killing machines. I know that doesn't really jibe with your tabletop experiences, and I often wondered about that myself. I kind of assumed that the ones who are removed in a game are not necessarily dead, just no longer able to fight. That happens in the novels far more often than death. Hopefully, that helps you justify it in your head a little better.

Honestly though, suspension of disbelief kind of needs to be left outside when it comes to 40k. Most of the stories are military dramas, which are long on action and woefully short on character motivation. The laws of science or continuity don't consistently apply in the 40k universe, and the most frequent threat to the protagonists has no justifiable motivation at all.

If you go to read a Black Library book, I recommend you approach the situation as if you were a submissive prison inmate. Just swallow whatever they give you to swallow, and you'll be much happier.

+1 Gaunts Ghosts

+1 Ravenor series

+1 Eisenhorn series

+1 Ciaphas Cain series

Titanicus

Double Eagle

I feel the best 40K authors tend to have the Space Marines as figures of power seen through others eyes with whom it is easier for us to empathise with. However 40K is a universe where things are writ large

Highly recommend

Titanicus
Eisenhorn series
Cain Series
Gaunts Ghosts

I enjoyed Hammer of the Emperor - interesting range of characters (zero marines) - best I feel was Desert Warriors.

Anything by Aaron Dembski Bowden

Lord of the Night

Soul Hunter, Throne of Lies and Blood Reaver are some of the best books yet made by Black Library.

Savage Scars is a better example of how well they fare against Tau weaponry.

That's not the same book where resistance on Da'lyth is being pushed back before the Crusade is ordered to withdraw, is it?

iproxtaco wrote:That's not the same book where resistance on Da'lyth is being pushed back before the Crusade is ordered to withdraw, is it?

It is. "Savage Scars" is written by well-known Tau fanboy Andy Hoare.