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I don't know if this has been ruled on or interpreted in any place that I am aware of, but forgive me if it has been for I could not find it in 10 minutes of internet searching.

So, as per the Eldar Codex FAQ, the 12" movement that Grav Tanks get from their Star Engines is performed, oddly, in the shooting phase. While this put my star-crossed dreams of 36" Ramming attacks to death, it did pose another interesting possibility:

Using Star Engines, is it possible to Ram/Tank shock two separate targets in the same turn?

I can find nothing in the rules for either Tank Shock or Ramming that would preclude me from, say, ramming a DE Raider from 15" away, and then in the shooting phase pivoting to the left and ramming another Raider 12" away. The rules for Tank Shocking state that: "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack..." (pg 68), and that: "Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way..." (pg 69). Nothing seems to tie Tank Shocking or Ramming to the Movement Phase specifically, just to movement period.

I can find nothing about it in the Rulebook FAQ or the Eldar FAQ.

Anyone got a clue on this one?

Thanks in advance.

Only thing I can see is that it says "instead of moving normally." It could be argued that the star engines are not normal movement.

Agreed with Melchiour...star engines are not "normal movemnet." I would say that you could...it is a move afterall and you can tankshock more than one unit. The only restriction is on fiiring after a tank shock which your not trying to do. So I don't know of a rule that prevents this.

From everything I've seen the argument comes down to the question, "Is it normal movement?"

The fact that it's an elected movement in the shooting phase makes me say no.

The fact that it simply says "an additional 12"" with no other stipulations makes me say yes.

Depends on your to/opponent. If you asked me I'd say go or it, probably to my own loss. If it was in a tourney I'd go by the TO ruling.

Yeah, that seems to be the issue.

Is there a definition for 'normal movement' anywhere? I couldn't find one anywhere, but then again that sounds like something that would be really easy to over-look.

I don't believe it is spelled out anywhere, which is part of the issue. It's kind of vague.

I'm at work without my brb, check pg 46 iirc under fall back. Think it mentions normal movement.

The only thing I don't get is why is the star engines used in the shooting phase?

I'm not arguing but it doesn't make much sense to me.

I've always used them in the movement phase.

Just one of those strange rulings, I think. Also having a 2 year old FAQ doesn't help.

VikingScott wrote:The only thing I don't get is why is the star engines used in the shooting phase?

I'm not arguing but it doesn't make much sense to me.

I've always used them in the movement phase.

Yeah, I know. I mean really, that's how I was using them.

But it states quite clearly in the Eldar FAQ that the Star Engines' movement is made during the shooting phase rather than the movement phase.

It's really odd, and it's what's led us here.

And yeah, couldn't find anything about it on pg 46.

Is that the pg about fall back moves? Could've sworn there was something about normal moves there.

Lots of stuff about fallback moves, but nothing i can spot about 'normal' movement.

My initial reaction would be that it's not considered "normal movement". Anything done outside of the basic rules for unit movement detailed in that particular type of units' BRB entry wouldn't be valid as normal movement. This is of course barring a USR such as Turbo Boosting which enhances Normal movement rather than replaces it.

This question has been debated repeatedly and vehemently by two camps, those that say the Star Engines are not "normal movement" and cannot be used to tank shock and those that believe it is "additional movement" from the movement phase made in the shooting phase and allows for tank shocking.

Talk it over with your opponent or roll off for it. My local TO is a member of the former camp rather than the latter and thus disallows shooting phase tank shocks, but yours may have something different to say.

I would say anything outside the Movement Phase would not be "normal movement" but, like Gavin Thorne said, I would talk about it with your opponent or TO for a ruling.

So if it's not 'normal movement', does that mean it would be possible to ram 24" then in the shooting phase move another 12" away

Yes, but thats because you can move, nothing to do with whether it is non-normal movement or not

If you can convince me that using star engines to ram in the shooting phase is "normal movement" then it will be allowed.

Night's Blood wrote:If you can convince me that using star engines to ram in the shooting phase is "normal movement" then it will be allowed.

Thing is, no one has to convice "you" for it to be legal, as your persepctive is not an official ruling.
In fact, neither side has much of a chance of convincing the other, no matter what is said here.

As for "normal movement", it is never difined. This leaves us with 2 opposing perspectives. (Notice I said perspectives, not facts.)
1. "Normal Movement" only occurs in the movement phase.
2. "Normal Movement" is any time a model moves the distance it is normally allowed.

This is the problem of perspectives. People see things from a certain world/game view, usually biased to their own benefit, and are not likely to change their perspectives without a crisis of belief occuring to challenge their view.
For example, if you see "normal movement" as only happening in the movement phase, then tank shocking in the shooting phase is not "normal". However, if you see "normal movement" as per perspective #2, then a model with Star engines can "normally" move 12" in the shooting phase, and as such can indeed tank shock/ram with use of Star Engines.

These perspectives are not official rules, but rather interpretations based on ones one views. And, since GW has failed to officially define "normal movement", these perspectives will continue to clash. There is no "official" ruling on this matter, so without miraculously changing the mind of an opponent who sees things differently, all you can do is follow "the most important rule" and dice it off. At a tourney, ask the TO, and politely abide by his ruling, knowing that you will not change his perspective either.

The rules speak otherwise.

"When moving a tank, the player may declare the vehicle is going to make a tank shock attack INSTEAD OF MOVING NORMALLY."

No matter what you claim, using a piece of wargear from the eldar codex that specially allows you to break NORMAL movement rules, is not normal movement.

Star Engines != normal movement.

This has been debated since the codex came out and my conclusion has been the one ultimately reached in every tourney/ INAT ruling.

Again, if you can convince ME that ramming in the shooting phase is NORMAL movement i'll allow it.

The game does not have a concept of "normal movement". Star Engine rules follow all the rules for movement as dictated by the section "Movement Phase", and is conducted in lieu of shooting. The rules for tank shocking does not specify which phase it must be conducted in.

Unfortunately, the issue is wide open and can not be closed by stating it's abnormal movement - because it quite clearly is not, it just happens at an odd time.

Oh, and you're on a forum in the capacity of a participant of a discussion.

Night's Blood wrote:The rules speak otherwise.

"When moving a tank, the player may declare the vehicle is going to make a tank shock attack INSTEAD OF MOVING NORMALLY."

No matter what you claim, using a piece of wargear from the eldar codex that specially allows you to break NORMAL movement rules, is not normal movement.

Star Engines != normal movement.

This has been debated since the codex came out and my conclusion has been the one ultimately reached in every tourney/ INAT ruling.

Again, if you can convince ME that ramming in the shooting phase is NORMAL movement i'll allow it.

Again...perspective.
You just ignored everything that I have said, without responding to it. The rules, do not speak otherwise. Inferrences to the rules, do. The rules are, in point of fact, unclear and never define moving normally. What is normal movement for one vehicle is different for another (fast, skimmer, etc.). Vehicle upgrades might or might not effect "moving normally". GW has never defined it, despite many opportunities through FAQs. This leaves the entire question up to interpretation.

These are 3 options for interpretation, based upon the two perspectives I mentioned in my previous post:

1: Moving normally is a narrow term, and anything that alters movement is not considers moving normally, for example:
Red Paint alters speed. An extra inch isn't normal. It is an exception.
Sensor Spines allow you to ignore dangerous terrain tests. Ignoring dangerous terrain ins't normal. It is an exception.
Rams and Deffrollas allow re-rolling of dangerous terrain tests. Re-rolling dangerous terrain isn't normal. It is an exception.
Star Engines allow movement in the shooting phase. Moving in the shooting phase isn't normal. It is an exception.

2. Moving normally is a narrow term, limited solely to the movement phase.

3: Moving normally is a broad term of movement which includes use of vehicle upgrades, including Red Paint, Star Engines, Spensor Spines, etc., and takes place whenever a vehicle is allowed to move.

The rules never define which of these is the proper interpretation. It never defines what "moving normally" actually is. To claim tht your interpretation is the only possible, and therefore only correct interpretation, is truely a narrow view, especially in light of the fact that this has been debated for several years, without GW ever stepping up and giving an official ruling.

In response to the underlined section that I quoted. It does't matter what you will allow. You and your opponent must come to an agreement. If you cannot, then "the most important rule" comes into play, and you must, by the rules, dice off to determine how it will be played for the game. If you refuse to do so, then you are breaking the rules, not your opponent. Your only other option is to refuse to play anyone who disagrees with you about the interpretation of rules, which would brand you a very poor sport and cost you the respect of your peers. As, for tourneys, I already stated that it is up to the TO, and all parties should politely abide by the TO's ruling, whether you like it or not.

Notice, I have not taken a side in this debate. I have merely pointed out that this is one of the many occasions where players will need to some to a consensus in order to play, as the rules are not clear cut. Neither side of this debate has any actual rules supporting their side. All they have are their interpretations of the rules, based upon their perspectives. It will remain this way, until GW makes and official ruling as to the definition of "moving normally", or better yet, a specific ruling on the use of Star Engines for Rams/Tank Shocks.

I didn't reply to it because it is nonsensical. I can have the perspective that lasguns shoot 36 inches, it does not make it true.

Moving normally means adhering to the movement rules. Star engines provide an exception. That exception does not override the basic rules or tankshocking. It provides an exception to moving, not tankshocking.

Instead of asking GW to define "normal movement", let's use our brains.

Is moving in the shooting phase "normal", as in, does it appear in any other codex? No. It's an exception. That exception does not apply to tankshocking.

Arguing the semantics of normal is quite possibly one of the most ridiculous things to ever spawn out of YMDC...

Using that logic, a red paint job Ork trukk will never be able to tank shock.

Star Engines tell you you may move, it does not provide any exceptions at all regarding how to move, only when you may move. It is strictly normal movement in the shooting phase.

Gaining additional distance to your move in the movement phase is a far cry from gaining an additional move in the shooting phase.

But this is only ever going to be answered by a GW FAQ.

Night's Blood wrote:I didn't reply to it because it is nonsensical. I can have the perspective that lasguns shoot 36 inches, it does not make it true.

You are very wrong in your choice of example. Lasguns have a clearly defined range. "Moving normally" is never defined.
In addition to everything previously mentioned, consider this : It could be reffering to "phase", or it could be reffering to "how" you move, as in multiple turns during a move.

"Normally" you may turn any number of times in move.
However, while tankshocking/ramming, "instead of moving normally", you may only pivot to face your target, then drive straight.
Because of the vague phrase, "instead of moving normally", there is as much credibility to the "how" arguement as there is to the "phase" argument, when it comes to figuring out what GW meant by "moving normally".

Those who have an opposing perspective of the meaning of "normal movement" cannot convince you, and you cannot convince them. You both have valid points, and either of you could be correct, based on the wording of this particular rule. The sooner you realize that the perspectives of others are just as valid as yours, the sooner you will gain thier respect. Only with mutual respect can you have a constructive discussion and seek resolution. Then, if still at an impass, follow "the most important rule", and dice off.

The attitude of, "I'm right. You're wrong.", concerning a vague rule that has no official ruling, is one of the worst things that can happen in YMDC, as it interferes with rational and respectful discussions that seek a real resolution.

You're right, moving normally is never defined.

But i can guarantee you tank shocking in the shooting phase is absolutely not "moving normally".

BTW, the "we both have valid points so we can't convince each other" is hogwash. Someone is right, someone is wrong.
INAT agrees with me, not you.

Try to play more than one game with someone pulling this

Melchiour wrote:I don't believe it is spelled out anywhere, which is part of the issue. It's kind of vague.

Rule ambiguity? In 40k? Surely not!

But that highlights the ridiculousness of the debate, we are asking GW to define "normal".

Move 12" in the movement phase, move 12" in the shooting phase; 12" plus 12" is 24". you moved 24". 24/3 is 8. Thats your ramming S for driving. +2 for front armor and +1 for being a tank is S11, wich doesn't exist and is turned to S10. That's how I allow my brother to play it, as it makes sense to me. I mean, star engines are meant to used for that, if not, for what ele?