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* I realize this will ultimately come down to what my and my opponent agree on, but I'd still like the major opinion of people on here *

Long story short - I want to add a Demolisher to my I. Guard army ( blob based ). I decided that the SM/CSM Vindicator is relatively similar and is a cooler looking model. After it has been painted up to look like it belongs in the Guard, would you, personally, consider it to be a proxy or not.


Thanks

Well, it is not the actual model, so yes, it would be a proxy

Yes, of course it's a proxy.

If you want a cooler demolisher, why not go with a hull mounted demolisher on a leman russ chassis?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/THUNDERER-SIEGE-TANK-COMPLETE-KIT__.html

SilverMK2 wrote:Well, it is not the actual model, so yes, it would be a proxy

A proxy is a temporary stand-in. I would consider this "counts-as" and have no problems with it. It's a very similar vehicle in function and it makes sense that there might be a few scattered around the Guard even if they aren't standard-issue.

Other examples of counts-as vs. proxy: plonking an Avatar into your chaos army and calling it a DP is proxy. Using a dreadknight with the imperial crap filed away is counts-as. Using Yarrick as Straken is proxy. Using a space marine with a power sword as Straken is counts-as.

Basically, if it's modeled/painted appropriately to the army it's in, and has the same or logically similar wargear, then it ceases to be proxy and becomes counts-as.

Scott-S6 wrote:Yes, of course it's a proxy.

If you want a cooler demolisher, why not go with a hull mounted demolisher on a leman russ chassis?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/THUNDERER-SIEGE-TANK-COMPLETE-KIT__.html

Meh, I like the Vindicator look.

Proxy and counts as is simply semantics. A "counts as" tank is proxying for the actual model in the same way that a "proxy" is counting as the actual model.

the color purple wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:Well, it is not the actual model, so yes, it would be a proxy

A proxy is a temporary stand-in. I would consider this "counts-as" and have no problems with it. It's a very similar vehicle in function and it makes sense that there might be a few scattered around the Guard even if they aren't standard-issue.

Other examples of counts-as vs. proxy: plonking an Avatar into your chaos army and calling it a DP is proxy. Using a dreadknight with the imperial crap filed away is counts-as. Using Yarrick as Straken is proxy. Using a space marine with a power sword as Straken is counts-as.

Basically, if it's modeled/painted appropriately to the army it's in, and has the same or logically similar wargear, then it ceases to be proxy and becomes counts-as.

That's along the lines of what I was thinking, but wasn't sure what others thought about it.

Counts-as = proxy in my honest opinion. A proxy is by no means 100% temporary, and nor is a counts-as 100% permanent, and both can be used interchangeably.

Avatar 720 wrote:Counts-as = proxy in my honest opinion. A proxy is by no means 100% temporary, and nor is a counts-as 100% permanent, and both can be used interchangeably.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

I'd say that the only point where a proxy becomes something different is where there is a consistent theme throughout the army. For example, if you made a guard army where all the vehicles were built around rhino chassis, re-equipped with the correct weapon options then that has gone beyond simple proxying.

If you've done the painting and conversion work to make it clear what it is intended to be, then I say no. To me, a proxy is a stand in for something else. (Like using a Coke can to represent a Dreadnought.) Sounds more like a conversion piece to me. Are they the same size though? That could change the ballgame.

Jimsolo wrote:If you've done the painting and conversion work to make it clear what it is intended to be, then I say no. To me, a proxy is a stand in for something else. (Like using a Coke can to represent a Dreadnought.) Sounds more like a conversion piece to me. Are they the same size though? That could change the ballgame.

Deep down, everyone fears... Dr. Carnifex. (Dr. Pepper bottle proxyed as a fex)

I still use plastic bottles as drop pods (proxy) One day I'll glue some fins to them (counts as)

To be honest, if you're using a bottle to represent a dop pod (or anything to represent another thing), then that bottle counts as a drop pod; there is really no difference between a proxy (substitute) and a counts as (also a substitute), as both are as they are described in the brackets; substitutes for the original model.

I have a friend that substitutes the Nid Drop pod with a Beer bottle covered in nid bits.

Avatar 720 wrote:To be honest, if you're using a bottle to represent a dop pod (or anything to represent another thing), then that bottle counts as a drop pod; there is really no difference between a proxy (substitute) and a counts as (also a substitute), as both are as they are described in the brackets; substitutes for the original model.

So if I spend 20 hours converting a Dreadknight into an Iron Warriors-themed daemon engine, paint it beautifully, win a Slayer Sword with it, and then put in my Iron Warriors army as a Daemon Prince, it's no different than the guy who uses a plastic troll from the LotR starter box as his DP? If I spend 300 hours painstakingly converting Grots with appropriate wargear, and suitable vehicles, and field them as counts-as IG, it's no different from a guy proxying out a new army with a random assortment of Blood Angels, Eldar, and blank bases? How far does this (ridiculous) lack of distinction go? I used a kitbashed plastic space marine with a winged jump pack, power sword, and infernus pistol as Dante in my Blood Angels successor chapter. Is this acceptable, or is it proxy? Is it ok to use chaos marines, armed with appropriate wargear, with the Blood Angels codex, but paint them as World Eaters?

Again, there absolutely is a distinction between using a totally irrelevant model as a stand-in and using an appropriately armed and thematically consistent model as a replacement. That's the difference between proxy and counts-as: one is a stand-in, the other is a replacement. These are not the same thing. One is a substitute teacher, the other got hired because your old teacher quit.

You're confusing stand-ins with conversions. A Dreadknight being made into a themed daemon prince using green stuff and parts from other models etc. is a conversion, whereas just dropping down any old thing to represent something is a stand-in.

Proxy and counts-as are exactly the same, a conversion is where you made the effort to represent something based on what army you're playing.

For Iron warriors you converted your models to have bionics, or you gave all your grots IG equipment and made little IG hats for them, as opposed to simply using bottletops for your iron warriors and blobs of blu-tack for your grots.

proxy = counts-as =/= conversion

Proxies and counts-as are temporary models (sometimes not even models) that are usually not painstakingly assembled from a variety of bitz, a conversion is a permenant model that you have actually taken the time to build up into a model that represents what it is. An IW Daemon Prince converted from a dreadknight will be recognisable as such, a pepsi bottle will not.

Piz wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Yes, of course it's a proxy.

If you want a cooler demolisher, why not go with a hull mounted demolisher on a leman russ chassis?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/THUNDERER-SIEGE-TANK-COMPLETE-KIT__.html

Meh, I like the Vindicator look.

Then play Space Marines. There is quite a difference between the Leman Russ and the Rhino chassis.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Piz wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Yes, of course it's a proxy.

If you want a cooler demolisher, why not go with a hull mounted demolisher on a leman russ chassis?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/THUNDERER-SIEGE-TANK-COMPLETE-KIT__.html

Meh, I like the Vindicator look.

Then play Space Marines. There is quite a difference between the Leman Russ and the Rhino chassis.

Maybe he doesn't want to play marines? Hence playing the Guard. Maybe he doesn't like the Demolisher, hence the using of the Vindicator.


Also, beware of Carnifexes disguised as Soda Bottles....

Your given criteria was that not using the original model = proxy = counts as. I'll rephrase. What if I use a non-converted Alpha Legion marine with a power sword to represent Straken in a Vraks Renegade Militia themed IG list? He's not converted, he's just painted appropriately to the theme. He's not the "correct" model, but in the context of my army he makes a hell of a lot more sense than Straken. Is this a proxy? Is fielding an entire army of Khorne csm as Blood Angels, armed appropriately, a proxy? Does it suddenly cease to be a proxy if I glue little Blood Angels bits onto them and declare them renegade Blood Angels?

Using any model other than the "actual" model is proxying/counts as, no matter if you are using cardboard tokens or a heavily converted, fully painted super awesome model of awesomeness.

It is not an insult to you if you choose to use your GD winning model to represent X on the table - just a matter of fact. Not using the "official model"? Then you are proxying/counting as.

Vindicators don't have turrets and it might be a bit immersion-shattering to be told it just shot something behind it...

Plus totally different silhouettes.