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This is the list I'm going to play my friend with soon...we're trying to make the most competitive lists possible for our armies. What I want to know is how could I possibly make this any better than it is? I think I've got just about every good unit and magic combos I can fit into it...what do you guys think? Anything I can do to make this list better?

2400

Vampire Lord – 375
+1 Magic Level / Master of the Black Arts / Helm of Commandment / The Flayed Hauberk / Talisman of Protection

Wight King – 225
Battle Standard Bearer / The Drakenhof Banner

Crypt Ghouls x40 – 328
Crypt Ghast

Crypt Ghouls x40 – 328
Crypt Ghast

Grave Guard x40 – 593
Seneschal / Standard / Musician / Great Weapons / Banner of the Barrows

Cairn Wraiths x4 – 200

Varghulf - 175

Varghulf - 175

I like the Black Coach more than Cairn Wraiths, though the choice between all the Vampire Counts Rare choices really comes down to personal preference.

Which unit does your Vampire Lord join? Additionally, why doesn't he have the Forbidden Lore (you can just pick Lore of Vampires with it if you want but you will have all the spells)?

Another unit that the list is lacking is Dire Wolves. Great at blocking units for next to nothing.

Id drop about 10 GG to get in two screening/flanking units of dire wolves! Is your vampire staying in a ghoul bunker at the back?

I'd drop 1 wraith and upgrade another to a banshee.
4 isn't enough to win combat alone, and 2 is enough to road block monsters.
If you can't win combat, you might as well have the banshee.

-Matt

Yeah wraiths are really funny against hydras you kill them eventually but their sitting there for five turns first, warpstone spikes on an a bomb still suck though

@ Airmanic - I was just short on points for lords and heroes. I had to proritize what was most important to me in my list. MotBA was #1 for sure, and the extra magic level is necessary if I ever wanted a good magic phase. I really wanted Dark Acolyte, but sadly, too short on points. I know I wanted to use the Helm of Commandment with the Grave Guard, so that cut me down more points, and after that, I only had a few points left for him, so I decided that protecting him with some armor and a (weak, but still) ward save was the best way to spend the points left. If you check it, I spent all 600 points I was allowed on my lords/heroes, to the point. At 2400, I really can't think of a better lord/hero loadout than what I took. Sure, other builds might have their advantages, but this is the one that will get most of my opponent's crying "cheese." Grave Guard that hit on 2's, wound on 2's? It's so nice...XD

I don't like the wolves really...I prefer to try and put as much points denial into my lists as possible, because I usually summon zombie blocks to hold up my opponent's strongest units for a turn or two, so I need to keep the "free" points for my opponent to a minimum.

@ HawaiiMatt - The wraiths aren't there for winning combat...or even to flank and help win combat. This is my anti-warmachine unit...they literally walk right through the enemy's line and attack his long range units. Most opponent's won't charge them, because they think you're trying to hold them up with them. They're also damn good at assassinating caster characters sitting in an archer block or such. And if my opponent puts too much effort into dealing with them (most players freak out when they see Ethereal units, and overcommit) then they're not putting enough effort into my ridiculous Grave Guard deathstar of...death.

As for the bunker question...no, I was going to run the vampire lord in with the Grave Guard. Yes, I realize this is pretty risky. But what better bunker could I use for him? I put him in the one place my opponent really doesn't want me to. If they want to try and assassinate him, they have to face a cheese build Grave Guard unit, a Wight King, and one of the strongest characters in the game. I believe the Drakenhof Banner also gives the Vampire Lord 4+ regen, which is niiiice. XD I don't feel like committing an entire horde of Ghouls for babysitting duty, either...I guess I'm just more of an aggressive player, who prefers to lead their army from the front. XD

What army will you be facing with ur list. I see the same weaknesses most deathstar builds have. Let's hope you don't get punsihed by life or metal spells where ur regen won't save ur 1200 point monster....

Magic is random and unpredictable...if I get screwed by it, so be it...there's usually very little you can do to stop level 6 spells from killing you instantly anyways. Unless you're HE, of course...

i dont play VC but whenever i do the 1 unit i hate to see is a black coach.

stupid flying bloody thing

Black Coaches have to eat a lot of power dice before they start flying...and once they have that upgrade, they're already ethereal killing blow etc. etc....and you're mad because it flies? :( Surely the PD eating comes into play somewhere in making you so angry. XD

Ur right magic is something you can't rely on but i have never been crippled by losing one unit to a spell since I am a DE player my units are cheap and many. So dwellers killed all my black guard who cares my witches, hydra etc are still eating ur army. I am not a fan of deathstars there are a lot of tactics to deal with them and to be frank they are not scary to good players who will avoid them and kill all your other units.

Tho ghouls are quite scary imo love that you have 2 units of 40..

UberhAxTHC wrote:Black Coaches have to eat a lot of power dice before they start flying...and once they have that upgrade, they're already ethereal killing blow etc. etc....and you're mad because it flies? :( Surely the PD eating comes into play somewhere in making you so angry. XD

its the fact that when its flying its dam hard to kill as like you have said it has all the other upgrades aswell

Really though, there's not much I can do about putting a lot of points into one unit. If I worry too much about losing it to magic, I'm just going to gimp myself so bad trying to cover all my bases. What do you think would help? Even if I broke the unit down into two units of 20 (already looking bad...), with the Vampire Lord and Wight King, it's still an expensive unit, and it's not nearly as effective. VC just don't have the options for much else...this is the "cheesiest" thing VC have, the GG deathstar...might as well make use of it. And btw, in case you haven't played against it or with it before, it is really, REALLY bad. Very few armies have a unit that can hit like GG can when used properly.

Also, how would a good player simply avoid my strongest units? All of my units are strong! The easiest points my army presents are the Varghulfs...M8, T6 with Regen 4+. Unless of course, you think Ethereal units, or Hordes of Ghouls are easy VP...and even if those DO die, you can't just tie up a GG deathstar. Seriously, it walks through pretty much everything with no problem. You'd be hard pressed to score more VP than the GG by just trying to avoid it. Also, it's not like a kid is playing this list...I always deploy the GG last, right where my opponent doesn't want me to.

Here's the thing, you just really don't need 40 GG. 30 with the regen banner is more than enough. Those other points can go into wolves, another wraith, a necromancer with Vanhels (to make sure you get it!!), or any number of other things.

Plus, having a couple units of wolves that you can deploy first helps you set the ghouls and GG where you want to, rather than plunking your entire army down before your opponent has really showed their hand.

UberhAxTHC wrote:
@ HawaiiMatt - The wraiths aren't there for winning combat...or even to flank and help win combat. This is my anti-warmachine unit...they literally walk right through the enemy's line and attack his long range units. Most opponent's won't charge them, because they think you're trying to hold them up with them. They're also damn good at assassinating caster characters sitting in an archer block or such.

I use mine for the same, but find that the banshee makes the difference. Also, being able to scream at a warmachine after a failed charge is so awesome it makes skaven players jealous.
With the new white dwarf option, I'll be running quite a few banshees. They're awesome; and make hard targets cry.


-Matt

UberhAxTHC wrote:@ Airmanic - I was just short on points for lords and heroes.

Sorry for the late reply (I was on vacation), but do you guys use some sort of house rule? If not, than I only see 375 points of Lords and 225 points of Heroes. Since you can spend 25% of your points on Lords (in this case 600 points) and 25% of your points on Heroes, I don't see the points issue.

Airmaniac wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:@ Airmanic - I was just short on points for lords and heroes.

Sorry for the late reply (I was on vacation), but do you guys use some sort of house rule? If not, than I only see 375 points of Lords and 225 points of Heroes. Since you can spend 25% of your points on Lords (in this case 600 points) and 25% of your points on Heroes, I don't see the points issue.

absolutly correct slap another vampire in the list either magical so you still have a phase if your lord fails or combaty to boost the ghouls