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Tau lore references that the Tau Empire's technology is extremely advanced compared to other races and is continuing to increase and develop as the Tau expand. If this is true, why are the Tau the underdog of Warhammer 40K? Is this why they are able to expand so rapidly?

They are the underdogs as they hold only about a hundred planets and have yet to develop an effective FTL. Tau tech is also not as advanced as it's made out to be, as has been argued multiple times while I've been on the dakka.

Forgive my newb-ness, but what is FTL?

Tau tech is just below Ad Mech tech (although Tau understand their technology better and it's more widespread).

Tau's understanding of technology is much higher than the IoM but they are the underdogs because their empire is tiny.

TrollPie wrote:Tau tech is just below Ad Mech tech (although Tau understand their technology better and it's more widespread).

I don't think there are any references to Imperial technology being on par let alone superior to Tau technology. Could be mistaken, but I don't recall any quotes saying otherwise.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

TrollPie wrote:Tau tech is just below Ad Mech tech (although Tau understand their technology better and it's more widespread).

I don't think there are any references to Imperial technology being on par let alone superior to Tau technology. Could be mistaken, but I don't recall any quotes saying otherwise.

Because you're thinking only in terms of Imperial technology that is currently utilized in widespread forms.

By and large, the majority of the technology that the Tau are developing or utilizing has at one point been utilized by the Imperium. The only thing is that the Tau's technology works better on a 'small scale' where production isn't outstripped by demand.

The Imperium has gone far past that point, to where production to suit the demand is the priority rather than innovation.

K262 wrote:Forgive my newb-ness, but what is FTL?

FTL is faster then light travel. The tau have fairly slow FTL drives.

nomotog wrote:

K262 wrote:Forgive my newb-ness, but what is FTL?

FTL is faster then light travel. The tau have fairly slow FTL drives.

To be fair, most races in 40k don't actually utilize FTL. They cheat and use the Warp or pocket dimensions as a way to get from Point A to B.

The only race to truly have FTL travel is the Necrons at the moment.

Tau actually know what they're doing with their technology, I put them as a more advanced civilization than the Imperium.

They're the underdogs because they're tiny and new.

Harriticus wrote:Tau actually know what they're doing with their technology, I put them as a more advanced civilization than the Imperium.

This is one of those fallacies that always makes me facepalm.
The Adeptus Mechanicus knows what they're doing with the technology they've got safeguarded. They have arcane rituals surrounding the technology, but how is that different from people who do things like saying "C'mon, c'mon, c'mon" to their PC/iPod when there's an error?

They understand, by and large, how most of the technology that they produce works. The problem surfaces with stuff from the Golden Age of Humanity, which has no STCs to describe how it works.

They're the underdogs because they're tiny and new.

Also because the biggest reason that they are a threat to the Imperium is their philosophy. Seriously. The most dangerous thing, in the Imperium's eyes, about the Tau is their philosophy.

Kanluwen wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Tau actually know what they're doing with their technology, I put them as a more advanced civilization than the Imperium.

This is one of those fallacies that always makes me facepalm.
The Adeptus Mechanicus knows what they're doing with the technology they've got safeguarded. They have arcane rituals surrounding the technology, but how is that different from people who do things like saying "C'mon, c'mon, c'mon" to their PC/iPod when there's an error?

They understand, by and large, how most of the technology that they produce works. The problem surfaces with stuff from the Golden Age of Humanity, which has no STCs to describe how it works.

They're the underdogs because they're tiny and new.

Also because the biggest reason that they are a threat to the Imperium is their philosophy. Seriously. The most dangerous thing, in the Imperium's eyes, about the Tau is their philosophy.

The singing and dancing is not the reason. (I dosen't help though) It's because they just forgot a lot of it. They have to launch crusades to find their own technology and they aren't able to build anything new. (bolting weapons on tanks is not building something new)

I agree with you about the the philosophy thing. The tau's outlook is their most powerful weapon. I mean it gave them the kroot, the ion cannon.

They have to launch crusades to find their own technology and they aren't able to build anything new. (bolting weapons on tanks is not building something new)

but having a drone do something else is?

I don't get what you mean.

Kanluwen wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

TrollPie wrote:Tau tech is just below Ad Mech tech (although Tau understand their technology better and it's more widespread).

I don't think there are any references to Imperial technology being on par let alone superior to Tau technology. Could be mistaken, but I don't recall any quotes saying otherwise.

Because you're thinking only in terms of Imperial technology that is currently utilized in widespread forms.

By and large, the majority of the technology that the Tau are developing or utilizing has at one point been utilized by the Imperium. The only thing is that the Tau's technology works better on a 'small scale' where production isn't outstripped by demand.

The Imperium has gone far past that point, to where production to suit the demand is the priority rather than innovation.

They have vastly different production standards.

For all we know, they may never have to give up quality for quantity, which the Imperium wouldn't have to even do if they didn't shroud themselves in dogma. This is all speculation though...

I guess my biggest gripe here is I see nothing from the official fluff that states Imperial Technology is superior to Tau technology, yet I always see people saying something that goes against official fluff. Saying the Imperium had rail guns on fleet ships isn't the same at all, in any way to having them in your hands. I could say the U.S. Navy has a laser mounted on a battleship, would that make us as advanced as an alien walking around with a laser gun melting everyone? Hell no.

I'd say the Tau are way ahead of humans in terms of technology. They have taken weapons that we put on fleet craft into the hands of ground troops. They are smaller, but they are damned lethal. Humanity leads them in sciences surrounding the warp and bio-engineering, but again both are more religion to humans then actual sciences.

I think of Tau as the humans before the war against the men of Iron. Relying on science and AI to get the job done.

Eldar have the highest technology, however it is dependant largely on their space magic and they are not developing it.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Tau actually know what they're doing with their technology, I put them as a more advanced civilization than the Imperium.

This is one of those fallacies that always makes me facepalm.
The Adeptus Mechanicus knows what they're doing with the technology they've got safeguarded. They have arcane rituals surrounding the technology, but how is that different from people who do things like saying "C'mon, c'mon, c'mon" to their PC/iPod when there's an error?

They understand, by and large, how most of the technology that they produce works. The problem surfaces with stuff from the Golden Age of Humanity, which has no STCs to describe how it works.

They're the underdogs because they're tiny and new.

Also because the biggest reason that they are a threat to the Imperium is their philosophy. Seriously. The most dangerous thing, in the Imperium's eyes, about the Tau is their philosophy.

The singing and dancing is not the reason. (I dosen't help though) It's because they just forgot a lot of it. They have to launch crusades to find their own technology

"Launching crusades to find their own technology" isn't that absurd when you look at the timeframe involved. Humanity once spanned the stars, with colonies damn near everywhere. We're talking tens of thousands of years separating when the main repositories of knowledge were lost. Mostly because the archives on Mars are fragmented from the Dark Age of Technology and the Age of Strife following it. Finding an intact Standard Template Constructor and the blueprints it possesses is worth almost anything to the Imperium and Martian Priesthood simply because it brings them one step closer to being able to manufacture what they need to more efficiently.

and they aren't able to build anything new. (bolting weapons on tanks is not building something new)

Uh...huh. Who do you think builds those weapons that get "bolted on tanks"?
The Laser Destroyer, to use an example, is a piece of technology that is "lost". The only reason they don't take them apart to figure out how to build more is because of the importance of the Laser Destroyer weapon.

The importance of the weapon is insignificant to understanding how to reverse engineer them with nigh unlimited resources from the Imperium.

It is dogma and religion that constantly get in the way of progress with the IoM.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

TrollPie wrote:Tau tech is just below Ad Mech tech (although Tau understand their technology better and it's more widespread).

I don't think there are any references to Imperial technology being on par let alone superior to Tau technology. Could be mistaken, but I don't recall any quotes saying otherwise.

Because you're thinking only in terms of Imperial technology that is currently utilized in widespread forms.

By and large, the majority of the technology that the Tau are developing or utilizing has at one point been utilized by the Imperium. The only thing is that the Tau's technology works better on a 'small scale' where production isn't outstripped by demand.

The Imperium has gone far past that point, to where production to suit the demand is the priority rather than innovation.

They have vastly different production standards.

For all we know, they may never have to give up quality for quantity, which the Imperium wouldn't have to even do if they didn't shroud themselves in dogma. This is all speculation though...

It's not dogma that sets the Imperium back. It's necessity. Why divert production lines from Lasguns to an experimental weapon that might or might not pan out?

I guess my biggest gripe here is I see nothing from the official fluff that states Imperial Technology is superior to Tau technology, yet I always see people saying something that goes against official fluff. Saying the Imperium had rail guns on fleet ships isn't the same at all, in any way to having them in your hands. I could say the U.S. Navy has a laser mounted on a battleship, would that make us as advanced as an alien walking around with a laser gun melting everyone? Hell no.

I'd say the Tau are way ahead of humans in terms of technology. They have taken weapons that we put on fleet craft into the hands of ground troops. They are smaller, but they are damned lethal. Humanity leads them in sciences surrounding the warp and bio-engineering, but again both are more religion to humans then actual sciences.

However, when we have fluff of the Great Crusade with Imperial Army troops utilizing kinetic penetrator weapons that could hull Leman Russ tanks, albeit as "squad support weapons" like Lascannons/Meltaguns--then yes, we can safely say that Imperial Technology was superior to Tau technology

The problem is that Tau players, and you in particular, make this big huge deal out of the fact that "it's miniaturized, it's miniaturized!" and then go on to state that simply having the tech puts them ahead of the Imperium. Having the tech and miniaturizing it in small scale production is one thing. Making it into mass production to where every single one of your troopers is a totally different thing. Railrifles are not common in the Tau force, they're only fielded by Pathfinders and the fluff on them is that they're "experimental".

I think of Tau as the humans before the war against the men of Iron. Relying on science and AI to get the job done.

God I can't wait for the machines to rebel then.


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BeefCakeSoup wrote:The importance of the weapon is insignificant to understanding how to reverse engineer them with nigh unlimited resources from the Imperium.

Except resources mean nothing when you can't actually produce the thing in quantities that would make it viable to use in the scale that the Imperium would be using it.

It is dogma and religion that constantly get in the way of progress with the IoM.

Er no. It's demand outstripping supply and being unable to sacrifice the item in demand to use as a production model.

Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.

nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.

The Tau Pulse Rifle also has been countered by the Tyranids adapting a kind of 'mirror' sheen to their carapace and a viscous underlayer to absorb the impact.

The Boltgun has not been countered by this.

Just like I have to say in the bloody arguments about Hammerheads versus the Leman Russ tank variants, versatility plays a role here. Boltguns can be loaded with different kinds of ammunition, while Pulse Rifles can't.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.

The Tau Pulse Rifle also has been countered by the Tyranids adapting a kind of 'mirror' sheen to their carapace and a viscous underlayer to absorb the impact.

The Boltgun has not been countered by this.

Just like I have to say in the bloody arguments about Hammerheads versus the Leman Russ tank variants, versatility plays a role here. Boltguns can be loaded with different kinds of ammunition, while Pulse Rifles can't.

But that isn't due to technological disadvantage. If they wanted the Tau could churn out Russes by the millions, but they don't; they specialise each unit's role.
Also, if Gorgon countered Pulse Rifles that easily then it's a matter of time before all lasguns become useless. Theoretically you could hold up a mirror to them and it the round would bounce off. You could even angle it to return the round to the sender.

nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.

On tabletop it does, but on fluff it's most likely not much of a difference. Nobody is saying the Tau won't eventually beat the Imperium techwise they just haven't peaked yet like the IOM. Their also comes the problem of comparing the two because of the huge scale difference between the two. We will never know if they could continue to mass produce their best tech if they were at the scale of the IOM.

TrollPie wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.

The Tau Pulse Rifle also has been countered by the Tyranids adapting a kind of 'mirror' sheen to their carapace and a viscous underlayer to absorb the impact.

The Boltgun has not been countered by this.

Just like I have to say in the bloody arguments about Hammerheads versus the Leman Russ tank variants, versatility plays a role here. Boltguns can be loaded with different kinds of ammunition, while Pulse Rifles can't.

But that isn't due to technological disadvantage.

Did I say it was? No. So kindly read a post before replying.

If they wanted the Tau could churn out Russes by the millions, but they don't; they specialise each unit's role.

Because specialization is effective for a force that has a relatively easier defined role, a relatively easier to maintain production line, etc etc.
I've said it before. I guess I'll have to friggin' say it again here.
The Imperium and the Tau Empire's equipment cannot be directly compared, by and large. They are producing and equipping two completely different forces.
The Imperium is equipping and maintaining a force that is designed to utilize prolonged sieges, extensive defensive works, and if necessary--Astartes support.
The Tau is equipping and maintaining a force that avoids prolonged sieges, utilizes extensive ambushes and fields their own equivalents of the Astartes support that the Guard does not have at their beck and call at all times.

The Tau, at this point in time, is comparable to the UNSC or Colonial Marines that we've seen portrayed in Halo and Aliens. They're not able to withstand extensive casualties, they pick and choose their battles.

The Imperium, however, is comparable to the Republic that we saw portrayed in the Star Wars prequels. They have near-limitless supplies of manpower and are trying to equip a force that can act anywhere that it would be necessary with a minimal adaptation to the forces utilized.

Also, if Gorgon countered Pulse Rifles that easily then it's a matter of time before all lasguns become useless. Theoretically you could hold up a mirror to them and it would become useless.

Annnnd?

That doesn't change the effectiveness of Heavy Bolters, Mortars, Rocket Launchers, or Autocannons/Autoguns which the Guard can field in large numbers.

The reason Gorgon "countered" Pulse Rifles was because the Tau almost exclusively utilize energy weapons. Gorgon pulled a Replicators to the Tau's Asgard, if I can use an SG-1 comparison.

Nicholas wrote:

nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.

On tabletop it does, but on fluff it's most likely not much of a difference. Nobody is saying the Tau won't eventually beat the Imperium techwise they just haven't peaked yet like the IOM. Their also comes the problem of comparing the two because of the huge scale difference between the two. We will never know if they could continue to mass produce their best tech if they were at the scale of the IOM.

Boltguns don't have the same massive thermal energy that a pulse round delivers. The round itself is also ridiculously big and, in game and in fluff, doesn't have the range or power of a PR. It's described in one book as being more akin to an artillery piece than a rifle.

TrollPie wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.

On tabletop it does, but on fluff it's most likely not much of a difference. Nobody is saying the Tau won't eventually beat the Imperium techwise they just haven't peaked yet like the IOM. Their also comes the problem of comparing the two because of the huge scale difference between the two. We will never know if they could continue to mass produce their best tech if they were at the scale of the IOM.

Boltguns don't have the same massive thermal energy that a pulse round delivers. The round itself is also ridiculously big and, in game and in fluff, doesn't have the range or power of a PR. It's described in one book as being more akin to an artillery piece than a rifle.

It isn't an energy based weapon so no thermal energy it does have a good amount of kinetic energy and the explosive shell afterward. I'd rather have a handheld rapid firing artillery piece then a rifle.

One of the arguments I always question is that the IoM adapted their tech differently or that they adapt it perfectly to them. That they are perfectly happy giving their troops lasguns and don't want them to have better stuff. The IoM dosen't have that much control of their tech.

The IoM didn't make lasguns to mesh with their human wave tactics. They developed human wave tactics because they are stuck with a under performing lasgun. If they wanted to change, they couldn't.

TrollPie wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.

On tabletop it does, but on fluff it's most likely not much of a difference. Nobody is saying the Tau won't eventually beat the Imperium techwise they just haven't peaked yet like the IOM. Their also comes the problem of comparing the two because of the huge scale difference between the two. We will never know if they could continue to mass produce their best tech if they were at the scale of the IOM.

Boltguns don't have the same massive thermal energy that a pulse round delivers. The round itself is also ridiculously big and, in game and in fluff, doesn't have the range or power of a PR. It's described in one book as being more akin to an artillery piece than a rifle.

Whoever described it as such should be beaten with a wet noodle then, because the Boltgun is far from being "akin to an artillery piece than a rifle".

Boltguns, when described in fluff that isn't written by an author who should be writing in crayon, are far more like the anti-tank guns fielded during WW1/WW2 or the large caliber anti-material rifles fielded today. Even if they do not detonate and kill you, the round itself will tear a hole through you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:One of the arguments I always question is that the IoM adapted their tech differently or that they adapt it perfectly to them. That they are perfectly happy giving their troops lasguns and don't want them to have better stuff. The IoM dosen't have that much control of their tech.

They do not have it now. They did have it, however, when the Lasgun was being issued over the Hellguns, solid slug weapons, grenade launchers with the fire rates of LMGs, etc.

The IoM didn't make lasguns to mesh with their human wave tactics. They developed human wave tactics because they are stuck with a under performing lasgun. If they wanted to change, they couldn't.

Wrong.
It all comes down to durability and supply. Why is the AK a weapon that is utilized by forces operating in desert or hostile climates?

Because you can do all kinds of nasty things to them and they keep going. A Lasgun is, much like an AK, virtually idiot-proof. It's also able to be recharged simply by laying the powerpacks in the sun, or if you need it right then and there by tossing it into a fire.

A Hellgun, which is more comparable to a Pulse Rifle, by comparison requires specialized training in the maintenance and usage of the weapon. It requires a great deal of TLC in the field, and the backpack mounted power cells aren't just there so you can carry a few dozen extra pounds. It's for the cooling systems needed to prevent the damn thing from overheating and fusing the powercell and operator together.

K262 wrote:Forgive my newb-ness, but what is FTL?

FTL = Faster Than Light ( and light travels 300.000 km/s, in short it takes the light 8 minutes from the Sun to Earth ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

K262 wrote:Tau lore references that the Tau Empire's technology is extremely advanced compared to other races and is continuing to increase and develop as the Tau expand. If this is true, why are the Tau the underdog of Warhammer 40K? Is this why they are able to expand so rapidly?

Because they don't hold many worlds ( around 100 and only 26 have population in billions, others have population probably in millions ), there are not much of them compare to other races ( even Eldar are more numerous ) and their tech is advanced but their FTL drive is slow compared to other races.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
The only race to truly have FTL travel is the Necrons at the moment.

Aren't their tech basically teleporting to large distances in a blink of a second?

Kanluwen wrote:

TrollPie wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:Well their you have it. The IoM can't advance their tech. The tau advance their tech. Add to that the tau pulse rifle packs more punch & has a longer range then a boltgun. It's not hard to see here.

The Tau Pulse Rifle also has been countered by the Tyranids adapting a kind of 'mirror' sheen to their carapace and a viscous underlayer to absorb the impact.

The Boltgun has not been countered by this.

Just like I have to say in the bloody arguments about Hammerheads versus the Leman Russ tank variants, versatility plays a role here. Boltguns can be loaded with different kinds of ammunition, while Pulse Rifles can't.

But that isn't due to technological disadvantage.

Did I say it was? No. So kindly read a post before replying.

The thread title is "Tau Technology" and nomotog was talking about how the Tau advance their tech while the IoM doesn't. I think you can excuse me for thinking you were talking about technology.

If they wanted the Tau could churn out Russes by the millions, but they don't; they specialise each unit's role.

Because specialization is effective for a force that has a relatively easier defined role, a relatively easier to maintain production line, etc etc.
I've said it before. I guess I'll have to friggin' say it again here.
The Imperium and the Tau Empire's equipment cannot be directly compared, by and large. They are producing and equipping two completely different forces.
The Imperium is equipping and maintaining a force that is designed to utilize prolonged sieges, extensive defensive works, and if necessary--Astartes support.
The Tau is equipping and maintaining a force that avoids prolonged sieges, utilizes extensive ambushes and fields their own equivalents of the Astartes support that the Guard does not have at their beck and call at all times.

The Tau, at this point in time, is comparable to the UNSC or Colonial Marines that we've seen portrayed in Halo and Aliens. They're not able to withstand extensive casualties, they pick and choose their battles.

The Imperium, however, is comparable to the Republic that we saw portrayed in the Star Wars prequels. They have near-limitless supplies of manpower and are trying to equip a force that can act anywhere that it would be necessary with a minimal adaptation to the forces utilized.

If they can't be compared, then why were you comparing them? By that logic this whole arguement is pointless.

Also, if Gorgon countered Pulse Rifles that easily then it's a matter of time before all lasguns become useless. Theoretically you could hold up a mirror to them and it would become useless.

Annnnd?

That doesn't change the effectiveness of Heavy Bolters, Mortars, Rocket Launchers, or Autocannons/Autoguns which the Guard can field in large numbers.

The reason Gorgon "countered" Pulse Rifles was because the Tau almost exclusively utilize energy weapons. Gorgon pulled a Replicators to the Tau's Asgard, if I can use an SG-1 comparison.