Classic Battletech Is Awesome: the Thread!

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**Charistoph**

Rosebuddy wrote:
That bullet point does just say "protect the IP" and 3D printing itself doesn't inherently violate intellectual property law any more than sculpting the old-fashioned way does. People like to use video game models for prints and CGL is likely legally compelled to disallow that on their forums. One of the many reasons to why IP law sucks.

I guess you could test the grayzone by hand-sculpting a legally distinct Warhammer and post pictures but I'm not sure they'd appreciate someone probing the limitations.

On the forums they have specifically stated NO 3D printed models of units. Buildings and terrain are fine. Bases are fine. But there is no way to know if a printed unit was created by the person posting it, so instead of trying to allow for such nuance, they have a blanket ban on it.

**Miguelsan**

That reminds me the dark era of the unseen, when we went from "FASA cannot use the models in dispute" to "Nobody can post the models."

I hope it's not going to be the same.

M.

**Dysartes**

Charistoph wrote:
On the forums they have specifically stated NO 3D printed models of units. Buildings and terrain are fine. Bases are fine. But there is no way to know if a printed unit was created by the person posting it, so instead of trying to allow for such nuance, they have a blanket ban on it.

Question - is this new following the announcement, or was it there beforehand?

**aphyon**

Well, wow we had quite the game last night.
clan invasion circa 3050, VS 3048 or older succession wars mechs.

The clan side-
.dire wolf
.timber wolf
.summoner
.storm crow
.nova/dragonfly

The inner sphere side

command lance-
.atlas
.awesome
.warhammer
.wolverine

lance 2
.battle master
.catapult
.wolverine
.shadow hawk

lance 3

.warhammer
.archer
.wolverine
.jenner

The road into the city was a highway of death in the true succession wars style. the dire wolf detonated the wolverine he was engaging at point blank. that killed both of them and a nearby wolverine. the timber wolf then took out the archer behind them that also detonated, killing the jenner and the storm crow behind him.....we lost an entire lance but took down 2 clan mechs soo things were hopefull.......for a little while.

Then there was the awesome...he made a pilot check to run on pavement before he moved base 5+-failed, fell, failed to avoid pilot damage, attempted to stand back up, failed again, fell, failed his pilot roll again for another hit. a few turns later took a PSR +1 from damage (including 10 to the face), fell, tried to stand back up, fell again and hit himself in the head for an additional 5 points of damage.

At this point we had a damaged wolverine, a damaged atlas and a damaged catapult K2 left on the table. facing off against a nearly un-touched dragonfly, badly damaged timberwolf and a slighly damaged summoner......the K2 pilot took that cue to bug out and everybody who could followed suit.

Spoiler:

There was a dire wolf standing there just a minute ago....

Spoiler:

**Miguelsan**

Ah, the traditional failed skid PSR... how much I hate yeh!

M.

**Charistoph**

Dysartes wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
On the forums they have specifically stated NO 3D printed models of units. Buildings and terrain are fine. Bases are fine. But there is no way to know if a printed unit was created by the person posting it, so instead of trying to allow for such nuance, they have a blanket ban on it.

Question - is this new following the announcement, or was it there beforehand?

Well, the pinned post has been up since November 2014, so I'm going to say that it's been the policy since before this latest post by a notable amount of time.

**Dysartes**

Charistoph wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
On the forums they have specifically stated NO 3D printed models of units. Buildings and terrain are fine. Bases are fine. But there is no way to know if a printed unit was created by the person posting it, so instead of trying to allow for such nuance, they have a blanket ban on it.

Question - is this new following the announcement, or was it there beforehand?

Well, the pinned post has been up since November 2014, so I'm going to say that it's been the policy since before this latest post by a notable amount of time.

I'd agree that after over eight years we can probably say that this particular element is well-established, and reacting to it like it is new and shocking is probably going a little overboard...

**aphyon**

Dysartes wrote:
Has there been an inciting incident to trigger the need for this statement, or is it just something that's been coming for some time?

Just an update, found this in my YT feed. this might have something to do with it.

**Dysartes**

...that would be the same Mage Leader that Kan commented on earlier, right?

**Ghaz**

CGL’s side of the story

**Miguelsan**

Dysartes wrote:
...that would be the same Mage Leader that Kan commented on earlier, right?

Yes, that's also the video I watched. He presents his theory about what's going on, gives some evidence backing his claims, goes ranting torwards the end. It's up to you if you want to watch it.

M.

**aphyon**

Did a couple clan on clan games tonight.

the first one was 3050. i was running

.marauder IIc
.war hawk
.bowman 2
.storm crow
.a points of shamash hovers

My enemy was running-
.gladiator
.timber wolf
.summoner
.shadow cat
.adder

it was the first run out with the shamish's they die super easy but are fun to play. thanks to my enemy falling down again i was able to force most of his units to withdraw....except the adder i smacked him in the face good. the shadow cat was the only actual survivor on the other side.

Spoiler:

He wanted a rematch so i went with a heavy star and he went a bit heavier.

My side
.ebon jaguar C
.ebon jaguar B
.mad dog C
.glass spider 2
.enyo strike tanks

I was up against-
.dire wolf
.super nova
.nova cat
.timber wolf
.shadow cat

This battle was up close and brutal. it came down to the 2 assault mechs facing off against the mad dog and a single surviving enyo's i pulled off a massive number of crit rolls in the final moments narrowly pulling off a victory. it was a full connect with all the enyos weapons into the already damaged back of the dire wolf. and the mad dog took the super nova from behind, scoring 7 crits in the center torso.

Spoiler:

We also did an aero tech game. the battle was clans VS inner shere.

The Mjolnir got on the wrong side of the Mkenna's broadside. to devastating effect. the clan conqueror was almost dead with only 6 internal structure left but after loosing his most powerful ship in the coalition fleet he fell back.

Spoiler:

**Miguelsan**

Have you tried crafting a huge planet out of styrofoam and placing it on the middle of the board? Add some gravity vectors like in Aerotech 1, and you got an interesting scenario

M.

**aphyon**

we actually have a planetary landing scenario planned, we were going to do it this weekend, but it got put off.

the guy i was supposed to be playing against was caught up in another game and had to go afterward. i do have a rounded food tray cover i painted up as a small planet we use from time to time.

Next weekend we already have a clone wars era star wars armada scale game using the B5 wars rules.

**SpinCycleDreadnought**

Dysartes wrote:
Miguelsan wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
Have you taken the time to look at the accounts of those who claim that the only reason they have been blocked by CGL - if they actually have - is because of who they follow, rather than what they've posted?

No, as I said I don't use X so I cannot check their accounts, or rather I can check a given tweet, but I cannot see the whole thread. All I know is through Discord, a couple you are block screen shots, and complains that they got blocked before even interacting with CGL.

And mass blocking on Twitter is really easy, you import a block list, or have an app to create a block list for you, and done. No need to check one by one if that person was causing trouble, or not. It's very popular in Spanish X

And due to that is why I'm complaining about the very high possibility that the CGL mods are being arbitrary, and unfair.

No, you're giving the benefit of the doubt to those you share a Discord with - without doing any due diligence - and then complaining about CGLs stance without doing them the same courtesy.

AegisGrimm wrote:It's too bad to see Catalyst starting to crack down on 3D printed material, or at least rumors of a crackdown.

One of the main comments I always get from people about Battletech is how Catalyst is freaking awesomely chill about 3d printed models as long as you aren't pushing them as a way to "stick it to Catalyst". About half my models are 3D printed, but nearly all of them are ones that are not available in the modern plastics, like a Maulers, a Highlander IIC, a Catapult K2 before the Grey Death Legion box came out, aerospace models, helicopters, etc. If a plastic version is available, I usually buy that instead.

I know Battletech is extremely casual on WYSIWYG, but 3D printing allows for some *really* cool models for oddball variants, like my Shadowhawk 2K with a recognizable PPC on the shoulder instead of an autocannon, or a Shadowhawk 2D2 for those crazy enough to take to the field in one. Or my Hunchback 4SP with SRM-6's in each shoulder.

As for point 3 of their announcement, I think it is worth asking CGL to clarify/expand on what they are referring to. Are they talking about, for a hypothetical example, someone posting STL files which are just 3D scans of CGL models? Are they talking about pirate releases of rulebook scans, etc? Do they not want 3D prints posted/talked about on their forum?

A bullet point alone lacks nuance, basically, and should be taken as the starting point for understanding, not the whole of thing.

I'm not on the CGL forums, so I don't know if such discussions have started over there.

Sounds a little like the Helm Memory Core discord is leaking. They're....an odd bunch, but a large community for battletech. The general vibe there is outdated and kinda leans towards 4chan and edgelord stuff. They seem to not police their general chat channel, which leads to it being nuked and remade every few days.I imagine CGL is taking a blanket stance against the more...vocal...members of that (and Twitter/X, which has always been a cesspool).

As for 3d prints, I can imagine CGL being against them as a) it competes with minis they want to sell, b) many people just straight-up rip assets from the video games. I'd imagine they'd not want people who pirate stuff from the games to profit as the designers of the ripped videogame assets aren't getting that money.

I've got a bunch of stls for terrain and smaller vehicles for set dressing, but nothing that would be a stand in for a combat vehicle or 'mech. The general stance on 3d printed mechs is 'you can use them, but do not show them off' as again, CGL sells mechs and would like your money pls and thx. That's just the basis of capitalism for better or worse.

**Charistoph**

SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:
As for 3d prints, I can imagine CGL being against them as a) it competes with minis they want to sell, b) many people just straight-up rip assets from the video games. I'd imagine they'd not want people who pirate stuff from the games to profit as the designers of the ripped videogame assets aren't getting that money. .

Except CGL and Topps have nothing to do with any 3D prints derived from video game designs. Microsoft does. The IP has been split on this front since before FASA closed its doors. CGL literally loses no money nor loss of IP from 3D prints of MWO units.

However, there is the concept of respect for IPs in general that they do enforce, and I posted a link earlier.

Here's what they've said previously and it just reiterated what is said here:

Worktroll wrote:
Folks,

We're seeing more and more of this, and please - it needs to stop.

Short form - the company running MWO has given permission for people to use the 3D models in the game for the purpose of printing 3D minis for their own personal use. This means that people:
- extract the model by themselves
- print the mini on a 3D printer they own
- do not share the minis with anyone else.

Personal use is exactly that - you only. It doesn't mean you can send the 3D models for printing anywhere else, and it doesnt mean you can sell, trade or give away models - physical or electronic.

In these forums, we have rules, including 10. Respect copyright. Any minis based on MWO IP which are not made under the very limiting conditions above are not authorised reproductions.

We know where these minis are coming from. But we of the BattleTech forums are not interested in what people do in their own homes, with their friends, or on other forums. We will not be despatching lawyers to exact retribution. But we won't have unauthorised reproductions posted on our forum.

So please don't.

Where it's likely that this is an innocent mistake, we'll pull the post and provide some friendly advice. If someone kept doing this, or really should have known better (eg. they've been posting minis here for years), we reserve the right to issue formal Warnings under the forum Rules (although this is usually not our preferred action).

We don't believe there's a lot of confusion whether a mini is IWM metal, CGL plastic, or 3D printed in origin. At the moment, one has to go out of one's way to pick up the MWO-derived minis, and it's unlikely that spivs are sidling up to people in game stores hissing "Want to buy a cheap Cataphract for the weekend, guv'ner? Nudge, nudge?". So please respect the Rules here.

Happy to answer reasonable questions. However, defences of the right to post images of unauthorised reproductions or other unlicenced minis, no matter how spirited, will be pulled due to their status re Rule 12.

Worktroll, Administrator
for the BattleTech Forum Management Team.
« Last Edit: 26 April 2018, 11:07:32 by Bosefius »

When asked if they can post work from their own printer, this was the response:

worktroll wrote:How can we tell?

We'd ask you not to, thanks. We really don't want to spend our time being IP commisars.

OTOH, any original designs are OK.

Cheers,

W.

You can believe them or not, but that IS what they've said on the matter, and it is a reasonable standard to maintain all things considered from a business perspective in a world of litigation and copyright protection.

As far as they are concerned you can post it on your personal page on Facebook, Instagram, wherever else, just not posted on anything they run.

**kodos**

a company cannot tolerate people selling pirated stuff no matter if is their IP or not
it is that easy, because if they know about it they must do something about it or the IP owner will go after them

**Charistoph**

kodos wrote:
a company cannot tolerate people selling pirated stuff no matter if is their IP or not
it is that easy, because if they know about it they must do something about it or the IP owner will go after them

Only if you're presenting it or advertising it. If the topic never comes up on something you manage, they have nothing to go after.

But CGL will not be sending people to arrest owners of 3D printers for violating MWO IP nor sending them C&D orders. They have no standing in these cases.

**SpinCycleDreadnought**

It's more of a "we can't stop you, but please don't".

I can see where they're coming from- a 3d printed MW5-style Centurion is a bit different to both the CGL plastic mech and Iron Winds metal one. I think the concern comes down to the ethics regarding where the STL was sourced from, and a (rational from a corporation's point of view) fear that those who 3d print their mechs won't buy the forcepacks. While CGL doesn't hold the rights and licenses to the MW5/PGI mech designs, all of those have a design for a mech called the Centurion. That, I think, is where they derive their blanket 'please don't'. Doesn't matter if the STL was ripped from MW5, MWO, or bought in the aforementioned forcepack, the mech is intended to be used as a Centurion mech.

In an ideal world, game developers would put out the models for games as downloadable STLs for a small sum, and we'd all be able to not worry about the morality and ethics of ripped designs.

Ultimately, I support 3d printing minis, but I'd rather they be original sculpts or significant transformations of existing designs. Straight-up ripping a mech design from a game that someone else designed is kinda a 'no' from me- I'd rather the original artist be credited and receive some money from the sales of those. I see both sides of the argument, as this issue feels like a battletech-flavoured reskin of the Limeware/pirated music debate from the mid 00's.

**Ghaz**

SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:
In an ideal world, game developers would put out the models for games as downloadable STLs for a small sum, and we'd all be able to not worry about the morality and ethics of ripped designs

In this case, the game developers don't own the IP and probably wouldn't be able to get Microsoft to sign off on it.

**Charistoph**

SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:
It's more of a "we can't stop you, but please don't".

There are places they can stop someone from posting such images or STLs, such as a Facebook page or a forum where they have administrator rights, or sponsored events like a convention tournament.

However, they've long acknowledged that they have no control over what you do at home.

SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:
I can see where they're coming from- a 3d printed MW5-style Centurion is a bit different to both the CGL plastic mech and Iron Winds metal one. I think the concern comes down to the ethics regarding where the STL was sourced from, and a (rational from a corporation's point of view) fear that those who 3d print their mechs won't buy the forcepacks. While CGL doesn't hold the rights and licenses to the MW5/PGI mech designs, all of those have a design for a mech called the Centurion. That, I think, is where they derive their blanket 'please don't'. Doesn't matter if the STL was ripped from MW5, MWO, or bought in the aforementioned forcepack, the mech is intended to be used as a Centurion mech.

Except that Battletech has long been proxy-friendly. In a situation where you can use a potato chip or a coin to represent that Centurion, having a 3D-print from a different IP holder doesn't matter.

SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:
In an ideal world, game developers would put out the models for games as downloadable STLs for a small sum, and we'd all be able to not worry about the morality and ethics of ripped designs.

In an ideal world, such a question wouldn't even need to come up.

Ghaz wrote:
SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:
In an ideal world, game developers would put out the models for games as downloadable STLs for a small sum, and we'd all be able to not worry about the morality and ethics of ripped designs

In this case, the game developers don't own the IP and probably wouldn't be able to get Microsoft to sign off on it.

In this case, it would be Microsoft, and/or Piranha Games, that would be selling the MWO STLs, while the CGL would be managing the STLs of their designs.

**kodos**

Charistoph wrote:
kodos wrote:
a company cannot tolerate people selling pirated stuff no matter if is their IP or not
it is that easy, because if they know about it they must do something about it or the IP owner will go after them

Only if you're presenting it or advertising it. If the topic never comes up on something you manage, they have nothing to go after.

But CGL will not be sending people to arrest owners of 3D printers for violating MWO IP nor sending them C&D orders. They have no standing in these cases.

hyperbole does not help here, if you talk openly on their FB channels about buying/selling 3D prints from MWO, it is not on them to send you C&D, but it is on them to remove it and report it to Microsoft so they can send the C&D
if they allow the discussion about it, it is them who will get letters from Microsoft
hence why they say that you are only allowed to bring up stuff that falls under fair use

don't know why this is so hard to understand that it is not CGL trying to send 3D printers to jail but simply they protecting themselves from other companies because some people think just because CGL cannot hinder people from using/selling 3D prints, everyone can openly talk about those via their channels without CGL getting into trouble

**Charistoph**

kodos wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
kodos wrote:
a company cannot tolerate people selling pirated stuff no matter if is their IP or not
it is that easy, because if they know about it they must do something about it or the IP owner will go after them

Only if you're presenting it or advertising it. If the topic never comes up on something you manage, they have nothing to go after.

But CGL will not be sending people to arrest owners of 3D printers for violating MWO IP nor sending them C&D orders. They have no standing in these cases.
hyperbole does not help here, if you talk openly on their FB channels about buying/selling 3D prints from MWO, it is not on them to send you C&D, but it is on them to remove it and report it to Microsoft so they can send the C&D if they allow the discussion about it, it is them who will get letters from Microsoft
hence why they say that you are only allowed to bring up stuff that falls under fair use

don't know why this is so hard to understand that it is not CGL trying to send 3D printers to jail but simply they protecting themselves from other companies because some people think just because CGL cannot hinder people from using/selling 3D prints, everyone can openly talk about those via their channels without CGL getting into trouble

What hyperbole? All I talked about was that they manage what they directly control and nothing else. That's not hyperbole, but stating the facts as they are. Meanwhile, if anyone was presenting hyperbole, it was you with your statement of a lack of toleration.

Nor is CGL under any obligation to notify Microsoft, Piranha Games, or Hare-brained Schemes when someone posts a 3D print of designs they own in something CGL controls. All they have to do is remove it.

**SpinCycleDreadnought**

I'm just gonna dip on the argument as it's going to go round right round like a record (sheet) baby right round round round.

As for Battletech related discussion, I found an STL of a bunker door designed to be stuck on the good old XPS foam hills/cliffs to act as a facility entrance. It makes me want to make a few pieces of terrain that when combined, create an excavation site of an old SLDF cache/fortress. Having the board provide the 'why are we fighting?' reason for the players. I figure some of the multipart iron wind metals combined with foam 'rocks' in various stages of excavation/disrepair will help sell that look of hasty abandonment from the Exodus fleet.

**kodos**

Charistoph wrote:
What hyperbole?.

this:

But CGL will not be sending people to arrest owners of 3D printers

Why should someone even make the connection here that CGL is going physically after people owning 3D prints when they just kindly ask people of not posting/bringing stuff to places CGL owns/operates/host

they make a public announcement that is very clear so they are legally save if anyone else comes up claiming that CGL supports IP violations

the whole thing is pretty much a standard "company wants to be save on social media from other companies because user do stupid things" post and nothing more

**Charistoph**

kodos wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
What hyperbole?.

this:

But CGL will not be sending people to arrest owners of 3D printers

Why should someone even make the connection here that CGL is going physically after people owning 3D prints when they just kindly ask people of not posting/bringing stuff to places CGL owns/operates/host

Because some people take things to extreme, and that you said,

kodos wrote:a company cannot tolerate people selling pirated stuff no matter if is their IP or not...

That statement of "cannot tolerate" is a bit of hyperbole of your own, and it can be taken to mean more legal action than just removing your posts.

**BrianDavion**

Miguelsan wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
...that would be the same Mage Leader that Kan commented on earlier, right?

Yes, that's also the video I watched. He presents his theory about what's going on, gives some evidence backing his claims, goes ranting torwards the end. It's up to you if you want to watch it.

M.

keep in mind that while Blaine Pardoe claims he was fired for his politics that's not something that's been confirmed. In fact given what I've been told from those close to the situation, it sounds like it was more Pardoe developed a MAAAAJOR chip on his shoulder and became impossiable to work with.

**Shadow Walker**

**aphyon**

There was as always many battle tech games happening this weekend but this is the only one i got into. i was requested to be the clans for this fight and a later era was chosen

my side-
.hellstar
.tomahawk
.doom courser (fantastic 3d print i found since the model has not been made officially yet)
.heimdall/XL mars tank point
.protomechs

the Davion lance-
.highlander
.banshee
.thunderbolt
.regulator hover tank

The Steiner lance replete with gauss-
.atlas
.king crab
.marauder II
.thunderbolt.

My tanks and tomahawk flanked left in the open ground and engaged the Davions. while the quad protos and hellstar played hide and seek in the terrain.

An immediate lucky crit took the regulator out of the game. so the banshee ran forward and after a couple turns of alpha strike it detonated it's ammo killing itself, both my tanks and his own thunderbolt. my return fire finished off the highlander.

The other side of the table started a bit harder for my force as the doom courser could not shoot straight for the first half of the game.

The protos really saved the game for me scoring internal damage that cause pilot hits. the crab fell after it's pilot went to sleep taking its final 6th pilot hit, the atlas pilot was asleep on the ground with 5. the marauder II fell and got savaged by the remaining proto mechs.

leaving me with a pretty damaged hellstar and 3 protos facing a single thunderbolt. the bolt decided it was a fight he could not win.

Spoiler:

**Miguelsan**

aphyon wrote:

The Steiner lance replete with gauss-
.atlas
.king crap
.marauder II
.thunderbolt.

I see what you did there.

M.