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OK me and a buddy were discussing lash of submission, and heres the the question that popped up. if i have a sorcerer with lash in a noise marine squad, can he lash a seperate enemy unit from the target of the noise marines? example sorcerer lashes mariner tact squad and the noise marines shot at scout squad? also can a lash sorcerer lash out the top of a rhino, and the squad inside still fire? does he count as a weapon being shot? even though hes not shooting?


thanks in advance!

Nope. He has to target the same unit.
Rhino, yes, he can cast out of the fire point and yes, it counts as one of your models 'firing'.

I'm not sure if this is classified as a PSA or not, however my gut says yes.

Can the Sorcerer target and "shoot" a diferent unit than his squad?

I know measurement is done at the same time, so with your 2x Firing Points in a Rhino measure to see if you are in range after declaring what you're doing, and lash/Bolter, etc will fire at the same time.

IIRC, RAW lash is NOT a PSA by its current definition. It is a power used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. So RAW yes he can target a separate unit. Lash out of a rhino would use one of the fire points as Lash requires los.

don_mondo wrote:Nope. He has to target the same unit.
Rhino, yes, he can cast out of the fire point and yes, it counts as one of your models 'firing'.

Don - not true. Lash is NOT a PSA, not any longer. As such he is not constrained by shooting rules.

so i CAN lash a different enemy unit than the one my unit is firing on? thats how i am interpreting the rule.

zachwho wrote:so i CAN lash a different enemy unit than the one my unit is firing on? thats how i am interpreting the rule.

Yup, that's how we've been playing at our FLGS and tourny.

very interesting.... thanks guys!

zachwho wrote:so i CAN lash a different enemy unit than the one my unit is firing on? thats how i am interpreting the rule.

Well, some people may get picky over "...instead of using another ranged weapon", as it implies similar limitations as with firing ranged weapons.

But I side with the view that Lash is explicit in that which models can be targeted, and it's not bound by "shooting attack" limitations. So yes.

The "another ranged weapon" bit is why I do still consider it a PSA, which meas that the Lash rules consider Lash to be a ranged weapon. And stand by my answer. Haven't seen anything from GW one way or the other, except for this FAQ:

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

IMO, Lash meets the second definition, in that it states that it is a ranged weapon in the Lash rules.

it doesn't state that its a ranged weapon in the lash rules, it says instead of using another ranged weapon. so instead of firing a bolt pistol i can use lash, a psychic power used in the shooting phase that does not have a str or ap value, i also don't roll to hit with it. so i would say its not a ranged weapon. the RAW are pretty clear.

don_mondo wrote:The "another ranged weapon" bit is why I do still consider it a PSA, which meas that the Lash rules consider Lash to be a ranged weapon. And stand by my answer. Haven't seen anything from GW one way or the other, except for this FAQ:

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

IMO, Lash meets the second definition, in that it states that it is a ranged weapon in the Lash rules.

It says no such thing. Lash replaces a shooting attack but it is not a shooting attack. Opinion has no place here as it is clearly define in the FAQ what a PSA is and lash meets neither requirement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The best way to decide if it is a PSA or not is this: does it say it is? Then it is. Does it have a profile? Then it is. Does it seem like it might be or it makes sense that it would be? Then it is not a PSA.

Lash =/= PSA

It does not have a profile, nor does the codex state that it is a PSA. It functions very much like the IG PBS's "Weaken Resolve" power, in that it is done in the Shooting Phase, and that the unit may not fire weapons and cast in the same phase; however, neither have a weapon profile, and neither are defined by their dex as a shooting attack.

Instead of using another ranged weapon..... Meaning a ranged weapon other than the lash. Meaning they considered the lash to be a ranged weapon. Doesn't have to have a rofile, since it;s description says it's a ranged weapon. Doean't have to state it's a PSA, since it's description says it's a ranged weapon. See where I'm going with this? It's description says it's a ranged weapon, so yeah, i think it's a PSA. If the word "another" wasn't in there, the sentence would read differently and would agree with what you are saying, instead of shooting a ranged weapon, I can use Lash. But it doesn't say that, it says instead of shooting another (ie a ranged weapon other than the Lash ranged weapon) ranged weapon, I can use Lash. See the difference?

Its description does not say it's a ranged weapon, which is the point. In order to be classed as a psychic shooting attack, the FAQ states that:

It must have a profile like that of a ranged weapon.
Does the lash? No.

It must be specifically stated as being a psychic shooting attack.
Is the lash? No.

This is where your argument falls down, as you're basing your argument off something that is quite unspecific; we're assuming that the presence of 'another' imples that it is a shooting attack, but assumptions and implications mean nothing when it is clearly written that it must be specifically stated as being a PSA for it to be one; nothing in the lash's rules specifically states it's a PSA.

Don - as above. It has to now state it is a PSA, or have a ranged weapon profile. It doesnt meet either of those conditions.

It may be considered a ranged weapon, but that is NOT enough to make it count as a PSA any longer. It must have the *profile* of a ranged weapon.

I disagree. But that's just my take on it.

zachwho wrote:very interesting.... thanks guys!

Indeed, this thread helps out a great deal. I had the same question myself.

I've also seen that Lash can be used to pull units out of combat, http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2007/08/tactica-lash-of-submission.html, is this true as well?

I'll start another thread if need be but hopefully zachwho will find this useful also

The CSM faq specifically says that Lash cannot be used to move units out of combat.

Lord_Mortis wrote:The CSM faq specifically says that Lash cannot be used to move units out of combat.

That is a damn good point and I should have remembered/checked this before steamrolling a silly question. I should have read the date on the Article and the date of the FAQ

Much obliged anyway Mortis!

Let this be a lesson to all who don't want to look silly

zachwho wrote:so i CAN lash a different enemy unit than the one my unit is firing on? thats how i am interpreting the rule.

Uhh, no, for the following reason ... and I'm going to skip all the "It's a PSA! -- No, it ain't!" hubbub.

Whether it is a PSA or not, the Sorcerer is attached to a unit. He's is targeting something. Is he shooting? Maybe. Maybe not. This is the slightly grey area.

Anyway, without an expressly written text like "Allows firer to target a separate unit" like a Tau "Target Lock" for Crisis Suits or tanks, then the sorcerer is bound by the rules of being attached to the squad. So if he Lashes something and the CSMs wanna bust some caps too, they do it when the targeted unit is at its starting point, before it gets moved by the Lash.

This ruling/interpretation (like a TO would rule) goes on the "permissive rules" mindset; the rule needs to say you can do it, if you're gonna do it. And Lash doesn't specify anything like a tau "Target Lock" does.

So, I learned to *not* attach my sorcerer to Oblits, but in a slow moving rhino squad of CSM instead.

Good 'nuf?

Well, I was gonna quote the faq for my response, but several others already have, so...

Lash is not a shooting attack, as per the faq (and that's really the core of this debate), so does not have to follow shooting rules. Look at the eldar, for instance, with their abilities. Has anyone ever made the rest of the farseers squad have to shoot at what was just doomed? Or guided/fortuned?

Lash and such eldar abilities are in the same category, that is, non-shooting psychic abilities. The only difference is that lash is done in the shooting phase.

Brother - no, it isnt good enough, because it isnt correct.

It doesnt matter that you "tartget" a different unit - if youre not shooting, youre NOT bound to the SHOOTING RESTRICTION of targetting the same unit as the rest of the unit.

Which is why Lash not being a PSA is important. Youre not shooting therefore targetting a different unit is fine.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It doesnt matter that you "tartget" a different unit - if youre not shooting, youre NOT bound to the SHOOTING RESTRICTION of targetting the same unit as the rest of the unit.

Which is why Lash not being a PSA is important. Youre not shooting therefore targetting a different unit is fine.

I see your point, nos. If Lash is, indeed, not a PSA, then this would validate your argument.

I would still contend that the 'attached' rule dictates the 'targeting', not dependent on PSA status. For, if we aren't shooting at a unit with Lash, what is it the sorcerer is doing? (No need to answer that).

Since I'm about to hang up my DE for a while, and about to bust out the Lash/Oblit spam, I'd benefit from your interpretation on being able to target a separate unit. However, my local TO ruled the way I outlined it ... and *shrug* it's playable either way.

... Hmm, I now realize that this was earlier this year before those recent FAQs. I'll run it by him again. Not to see if either argument is "right" but simply how it'd be called in the next tourney.

Well, nothing indicates you are shooting them - no roll to hit, no strength, no AP, nothing. You cannot take saves against it. Nothing indicates its a shooting attack, not any longer, given the change in definition of a PSA.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well, nothing indicates you are shooting them -

Except for the bit in the Lash rules about it being ranged weapon....................... And what do you do with ranged weapons? You shoot them.

don_mondo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well, nothing indicates you are shooting them -

Except for the bit in the Lash rules about it being ranged weapon....................... And what do you do with ranged weapons? You shoot them.

Right, don. It has partial qualification of being a "Shooting Attack". Does that fully qualify it though?

Like JotWW, and a few other things in 40k, Lash is an oddity that falls in between definitions. I mean really, do you think that the GW writers thought it through and would be able to readily answer our query without looking at the other guy?

GT: Uhm. Huh. Well, yeah, it's a PSA, because of the range.
PK: But it doesn't do damage or have anything to save against.
GT: Like Jaws?
PK, Damnit, don't bring that one up!
MW: --
GT: No! Just keep quiet, you!
PK: Markerlights?
AT: But they aren't Psychic Shots.
GT: Alessio, you're still here?
Etc.

Lastly, if you two, don and nos, seasoned YMDC posters, are on opposite sides of an issue, then it is highly likely that the afore-mentioned chuckleheads would have to argue about it for a bit to decide it.

don_mondo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well, nothing indicates you are shooting them -

Except for the bit in the Lash rules about it being ranged weapon....................... And what do you do with ranged weapons? You shoot them.

You mean the part about "A psyker may use this psychic power in the Shooting phase instead of another ranged weapon."? So, that bit about another ranged weapon means that lash is a ranged weapon?

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Lash has neither a profile nor does it specifically state that it's a PSA(not even in the extensive FAQ-errata).
Jaws does specifically state that it's a PSA.

don_mondo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well, nothing indicates you are shooting them -

Except for the bit in the Lash rules about it being ranged weapon....................... And what do you do with ranged weapons? You shoot them.

YEt it isnt a PSA. So what is it?

it meets neither of the NEW criteria for determining what is and isnt a PSA, so it isnt one.