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Hi,

I'm sure this has been covered before but I can not find any clear answer with reasoning.

RAW for the Mek KFF say that it grants 5+ bonus to any unit within 6", which to me says that any unit with a single model within 6" gets a 5+ cover save. The cover save defining what it can and cannot be negated buy.

My friend insists that this is incorrect and that it counts as a 6" bubble cover around the Mek, and uses the normal 50% of the Unit within cover rule.

I have read many places that I am correct, but can someone explaine to me why, or point me to an offical sorce for this interpritation?

Secondly do you play it as 6" from the base, 6" from the KFF or a 12" blast template over the Mek?

Ta!

Page 3, measuring to uniots - if you can measure to one model you have measured to the unit, meaning the entire unit is in cover if within 6" of the model

Imagine the squad itself is a bubble. If the distance between the Squad bubble, and the Shield bubble, is equal to or less than 6", the squad bubble gets the cover save.

Doesn't exactly make much sense, but since it's Orky tech, it gets away with a lot

If 1 model from the mob touches the bubble, the mob gets cover.

However, you need to have the majority of a vehicle squadron touch the mob for it to get the cover.

-cgmckenzie

As others have mentioned, if one model is in range, the entire unit gets the save.

As to your second question, you measure the distance like you measure every other distance, from base to base. If the edge of the Mek's base is less than 6" to the edge of the model's base, the model is in range.

cgmckenzie wrote:However, you need to have the majority of a vehicle squadron touch the mob for it to get the cover.

-cgmckenzie

I disagree with this. If 1 vehicle is in range, the squadron gets a 5+ cover. If the majority are in range, the squadron gets a 4+ cover.

Extensive arguments exist in plenty of other threads, so lets not get into it here. Let's just leave it at the fact that the rule is ambiguous and has two opposing viewpoints.

A distinction to be made. The 5+ cover is good for units, i.e. troops moving along side the KFF Mek.

Vechicles are granted 'obscured' if they are in the bubble. That should be a 4+.

Vhalan, squadrons of vehicles are also units.

(As is a single vehicle, but that will either be in or out of 6")

Grakmar wrote:

I disagree with this. If 1 vehicle is in range, the squadron gets a 5+ cover. If the majority are in range, the squadron gets a 4+ cover.

Extensive arguments exist in plenty of other threads, so lets not get into it here. Let's just leave it at the fact that the rule is ambiguous and has two opposing viewpoints.

Luckily, its not a matter of you agreeing with it or not. GW has recently FAQ'd it to say that only those vehicles in range are obscured. For a squadron to get the obscured save, 50% or more must be obscured. So, if 2 out of 3 kans are in range, the squadron gets the save; if only 1 is in range, no saves for any kan.

The same FAQ also said that it is a 4+ for vehicles.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

I disagree with this. If 1 vehicle is in range, the squadron gets a 5+ cover. If the majority are in range, the squadron gets a 4+ cover.

Extensive arguments exist in plenty of other threads, so lets not get into it here. Let's just leave it at the fact that the rule is ambiguous and has two opposing viewpoints.

Luckily, its not a matter of you agreeing with it or not. GW has recently FAQ'd it to say that only those vehicles in range are obscured. For a squadron to get the obscured save, 50% or more must be obscured. So, if 2 out of 3 kans are in range, the squadron gets the save; if only 1 is in range, no saves for any kan.

The same FAQ also said that it is a 4+ for vehicles.

-cgmckenzie

Yes, everything that you said is true.

However, they didn't remove the part about "any units within 6" get a 5+ cover save". Vehicles are units, so if 1 vehicle from a squad is within 6", then the squad is within 6", then the squad gets a 5+ cover. QED.


And, now you come back with "But, check out the FAQ. It says that vehicles only count as obscured if within 6"."

I then counter with a varient of what I've said. Then, someone else chimes in with "cover saves only work against wounds, not armor penetration." Following that is someone else screaming "What about DE? Their vehicles get cover saves!" And, we all resort to screaming at each other until the thread gets locked, or we all walk away angry.

I always just assumed them to be the same. I know i'm right too because cover works in real life by obscuring a target. Also, trollface.

Q: What cover save does kustom force field give to a
vehicle within 6" of it? (p35)
A: 4+. Note that for a squadron of vehicles only those
within 6” of the custom force filed will count as
obscured.

Vehicles do not get cover saves, they get obscured saves. The 5+ save does not apply to them because they cannot get cover. Having one kan in range will have it count as obscured, but it does nothing because the majority of the squadron must be obscured for the obscured save to be taken. So, 1/3 kans in range = no save. 2+/3 in range = 4+obscured save.

This is how it works. Claiming that the squadron will get a 5+ save because 1 kan is in range is wrong, specifically outlined by the FAQ I quoted. Vehicles in range get 4+, not a 5+. For a squadron to get the save, 50% or more must be in range of the KFF because of cover rules for squadrons.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:
Vehicles do not get cover saves, they get obscured saves.

Two problems with this statement.

(1) The rules do not say that vehicles do not get cover saves. They say vehicles do not benefit from cover in the same way as infantry. The cover save is not being granted by cover, it is being granted by wargear.

(2) ".. may take a cover save against it, exactly like a non-vehicle model would.." So vehicles do in fact take cover saves by virtue of being obscured and do not take an obscured save.

Tahnk you for your help. Page 3 of the rule book explaines it.

Where do people mesure the 6" from? The kff or the base? Being on a boss base it makes a big diffrence.

As always, you measure from the closest points of the respective bases/hulls to see if two models are within 6" of each other.

So you are correct that this results in a greater area than a 6" radius circle centered on one point.

Ta.

kmdl1066 wrote:

cgmckenzie wrote:
Vehicles do not get cover saves, they get obscured saves.

Two problems with this statement.

(1) The rules do not say that vehicles do not get cover saves. They say vehicles do not benefit from cover in the same way as infantry. The cover save is not being granted by cover, it is being granted by wargear.

(2) ".. may take a cover save against it, exactly like a non-vehicle model would.." So vehicles do in fact take cover saves by virtue of being obscured and do not take an obscured save.

There is only one problem with this statement. There is no such thing as obscured save. This is a very common error. Vehicles take cover saves from being obscured.

This really leads to a possibility of 4+/5+ with all the points raised by Grakmar.

cgmckenzie wrote:Q: What cover save does kustom force field give to a
vehicle within 6" of it? (p35)
A: 4+. Note that for a squadron of vehicles only those
within 6” of the custom force filed will count as
obscured.

Vehicles do not get cover saves, they get obscured saves. The 5+ save does not apply to them because they cannot get cover. Having one kan in range will have it count as obscured, but it does nothing because the majority of the squadron must be obscured for the obscured save to be taken. So, 1/3 kans in range = no save. 2+/3 in range = 4+obscured save.

This is how it works. Claiming that the squadron will get a 5+ save because 1 kan is in range is wrong, specifically outlined by the FAQ I quoted. Vehicles in range get 4+, not a 5+. For a squadron to get the save, 50% or more must be in range of the KFF because of cover rules for squadrons.

-cgmckenzie

True. It's clear that, in regards to the KFF interacting with units, GW has made a distinction between vehicles squadrons and non-vehicle units.

It's stupid how they word it one way and it seems simple, then make this exception. It makes sense though, seeing as vehicles are larger so they are treated as harder to protect. Not perfect because there could be some units of creatures that are bigger than some vehicle squad members.

So if only some of the vehicles get cover, then that just goes by the normal 50% of the unit in cover determining whether all get the save or not, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nevermind, answer is in another topic -> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/387164.page#3145111

Am I reading this right, following the other thread, Vehicle squads have to apply the 50% rule to gain cover from a KFF, yet a unit of infantry only requires one model from the unit to be in 6" to gain the cover save form the KFF for the entire unit, not 50% of the unit with 6" as per the vehicle rules.

There are two opposing points of view:

The heretics believe that vehicle squadrons can only benefit from one save: the 4+ save if half the squadron is obscured.

The righteous and just believe that vehicle squadrons can benefit from both saves: if half the squadron is obscured a 4+ save and if less than half the squadron is within 6" of the KFF a 5+ save.

Given that GW allows Blood Angels and Space Wolves vehicles a cover save without being obscured, it seems silly to not allow Orks the same rules change.

Strictly unless a vehicle is obscured it doesnt get a save. The way GW thinks the rules work they do. Meaning they would get both the 5+ and a 4+

So do infantry only need 1 model within the 6" bubble to give the entire (say, 30 boyz mob) unit cover?

With this specification for vehicles, and this reiterating of the 50% rule, can I take it that if a unit is less then 50% in cover, it gets no cover save?

Oh jesus, this thread. Every time there is even a mention of the KFF this comes up. Can we please have a poll and end this discussion?

PrometheusZero wrote:So do infantry only need 1 model within the 6" bubble to give the entire (say, 30 boyz mob) unit cover?

With this specification for vehicles, and this reiterating of the 50% rule, can I take it that if a unit is less then 50% in cover, it gets no cover save?

The KFF has two abilities:
1) All units within 6" have a 5+ cover save, no exceptions. Anything consisting of one or more models is a unit, including squadrons.
2) All vehicles within 6" are obscured. This is a 4+ cover save. As per squadron rules, if more than half of a squadron is within 6", the unit will have a 4+ cover save in addition to the 5+ save. The best one must be taken.

Vehicles get the 4+ save, explicitly stated in the FAQ. You can argue in circles all day, but GW has come out and said how it works.

Q: What cover save does kustom force field give to a
vehicle within 6" of it? (p35)
A: 4+. Note that for a squadron of vehicles only those
within 6” of the custom force filed will count as
obscured.

Note that it doesn't say 'only 4+ unless the rest of the squadron isn't in range' or 'it gets a 5+ if x happens.' It clearly says vehicles get a 4+ save. Using the 5+ on any vehicle is contradicting that.

-cgmckenzie

Jidmah wrote:

PrometheusZero wrote:So do infantry only need 1 model within the 6" bubble to give the entire (say, 30 boyz mob) unit cover?

With this specification for vehicles, and this reiterating of the 50% rule, can I take it that if a unit is less then 50% in cover, it gets no cover save?

The KFF has two abilities:
1) All units within 6" have a 5+ cover save, no exceptions. Anything consisting of one or more models is a unit, including squadrons.
2) All vehicles within 6" are obscured. This is a 4+ cover save. As per squadron rules, if more than half of a squadron is within 6", the unit will have a 4+ cover save in addition to the 5+ save. The best one must be taken.

Gee whizz man! Stop copypasta the same answer! Yeah, I got all that. If you're going to quote me, at least answer my damn question (highlighted for ease of spotting). I'm gessing by implication your answer is yes. Only one model is required to b withing 6" to give his unit the KFF cover save.

So, is that just bad wording on the KFF entry's part, or just everyone trying to be a cheesy as possible? (Or even worse, is the KFF as cheesy as possible)

PrometheusZero wrote:Only one model is required to b withing 6" to give his unit the KFF cover save.

Yes, you only need one model within range of the KFF to grant a cover save to the entire unit.

It's not easy to get a whole mob of 30 orks within 6" of a Mek. Even half can be a challenge.

PrometheusZero wrote:Gee whizz man! Stop copypasta the same answer! Yeah, I got all that. If you're going to quote me, at least answer my damn question (highlighted for ease of spotting). I'm gessing by implication your answer is yes. Only one model is required to b withing 6" to give his unit the KFF cover save.

So, is that just bad wording on the KFF entry's part, or just everyone trying to be a cheesy as possible? (Or even worse, is the KFF as cheesy as possible)

That was supposed to answer your question, I read your post as if you were applying the logic of the second ability to the first one. "within" is explained on page 3 of the BRB: as soon as the distance between the closest model of a unit and the big mek is less than 6" everyone in the units has the save. This is neither badly worded nor cheesy, but fully intended. There are even battle reports of Phil Kelly playing his own codex this way.

Not to mention that the KFF would be utterly useless for non-vehicles if it worked differently, as ork units tend to be too big to get enough models inside such a small area without clumping up.

@Jidmah Okay. Fair enough. I guess I'm just a bit exacerbated by seeing weird formations of a mek in the middle with teardrop shaped units fanned around him all so they are completely spread out yet all have at least 1 guy within 6" and some kans waddling about in there as well.

It looks dumb and gimmicky.

But I suppose this isn't the first instance of something being obviously dumb and yet being spammed to death. All warp spiders in 2nd was my first peev.

Nor will this be my last. As long as I dont write all the games myself something will always bug me. But that's life I suppose. Anyways...this isn't a blog so I'll shut up

Please don't use "gay" as a synonym for words like "dumb" or "bad."

Thanks,

Manchu