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I was just wondering what everyone thought about the FAQ update and how it has affected the Kan Wall. Has It ruined the Kan Wall or just changed how you have to run it? Also let me get it straight, if I have 3 Kans and only 2 are in range of my KFF only those 2 get the 4+, the 3rd gets nothing? I still have been using them but in a game of inches having to run so tight really sucks. I didn't feel that the Kan Wall was OP It was one of a handfull of competitive (semi-competitive) ork builds I don't know why it needed to be nerfed.

it still seems viable imho. perhaps using minimal nob squads to mount your KFFs in battlewagons between each kan squad to extend the line and the range of the bubble?

The FAQ really didn't change anything, its still very valid.

Did I miss something? I thought cover was still allocated on a unit basis? If more than 50% of the squad is in cover or covered by said force field then the whole squad is in cover. Since kans run in squadrons then 2 out of three would be all you need right? Right??

The FAQ states the KFF only works on a per model basis for vehicles. So only the VEHICLE models with 6" gets the save. For other units, it still works as before. It is quite a change.

I wouldn't say it's ruined, it'll just make it less easy to spread out.

I play a hybrid wall with a BW and Nobz. The KFF only really covers the Kanz in T1 anyways, then the wagon zips off to let the Kanz fend for themselves.

Don't forget, if 2 Kanz are within KFF range then the 3rd one gets it as per obscured rule for squadrons in the BRB.

RustyNails wrote:I was just wondering what everyone thought about the FAQ update and how it has affected the Kan Wall. Has It ruined the Kan Wall or just changed how you have to run it? Also let me get it straight, if I have 3 Kans and only 2 are in range of my KFF only those 2 get the 4+, the 3rd gets nothing? I still have been using them but in a game of inches having to run so tight really sucks. I didn't feel that the Kan Wall was OP It was one of a handfull of competitive (semi-competitive) ork builds I don't know why it needed to be nerfed.

AdeptSister wrote:The FAQ states the KFF only works on a per model basis for vehicles. So only the VEHICLE models with 6" gets the save. For other units, it still works as before. It is quite a change.

Each vehicle within 6" gains a cover save, now if 50% of a unit has a cover save then the whole unit gains one so if you have 2 of 3 kanz from a given unit or "squad" within the 6" then the whole unit has the save.

This is also not a change from how it worked before, it is confirmation because so many people didn't get it.

And as this is not a change the kan wall is still as viable as it was before because it is still the same.

The only way the FAQ has affected how I place deploy kanz, is making sure the middle kan of the two flaking squadrons is within 6" of the KFF Wagon. Outside of that, it's all good.

Cover saves never, ever work on a per-model basis. All models can take the cover save available to the unit, even if they are not in cover themselves.

Kan wallz works very well still, FAQ didn't change a thing really.

The FAQ sure seems specific.

And I always went with the consensus that:

'Specific rule > general rule'

The 50% for cover saves is a general rule that applies to everything unless specifically stated otherwise.

The faq seems to specifically state that vehicles and KFF interact in a model case-by-case basis

Q: What cover save does kustom force field give to a
vehicle within 6" of it? (p35)
A: 4+. Note that for a squadron of vehicles only those
within 6” of the custom force filed will count as
obscured.

So if 50% or more of the unit is obscured than everyone gets the 4+. It was just clarifying that 1 of 3 doesn't give the whole unit obscured, which it more or less was already determined it did not.

PrometheusZero wrote:The FAQ sure seems specific.

And I always went with the consensus that:

'Specific rule > general rule'

The 50% for cover saves is a general rule that applies to everything unless specifically stated otherwise.

The faq seems to specifically state that vehicles and KFF interact in a model case-by-case basis

The 50% rule tells you to figure out the saves for each model, then apply the save the majority of the models have. The KFF FAQ tells you how to figure out what save each model has. No contradiction here at all.

This is a matter of specific vs general like that of the chaos dread wording. I think they were mainly trying to prevent people cheesing it up by having one kan in range and taking the save on all 3

the BRB which is general states vehicle squadrons are obscured if half or more of the squad is obscured.

However the specific faq ruling specifically states that vehicles in a squadron not within the 6" do not count as obscured.

this specific ruling actually contradicts the BRB ruling and specifically says that models not within 6" are not obscured.

There have been a lot of threads on this on many sites, and there are ork players unwilling to say they lose the cover save because despite the specific ruling the general ruling is blah blah and obviously RAI the faq writers meant blah blah, and people pointing out that specific rules trump general and you can't infer what the faq writers meant only the RAW should be followed with no real consensus beyond that. Simply put its a matter of contention currently.

RAW = vehicles outside of the 6" should not count as obscured since it is plain as day in the faq that they do not.

RAI = ??

blaktoof wrote:the BRB which is general states vehicle squadrons are obscured if half or more of the squad is obscured.

That would be wrong. Squadrons can never be obscured. Vehicle models can be obscured and thus gain a cover save. If the majority of models in a unit has a cover save any model in the unit may use it, whether they are in cover/obscured or not.

Kan Walls are only dead against Tau. j/k, but that's helped prevent me from buying 9 of them. Totally viable, as everyone has said.

It didn't change anything, you just have to havv at least 2 kans under the kff so that the majority has cover, and therefor confers it to the entire unit.

This probably belongs in the YMDC forums.

I fail to understand why some of you guys would believe that a kan (third kan out of three) that is not within range of the KFF would get a save?

The FAQ says "Only those within 6" of the KFF field will count as obscured."

That doesn't extrapolate into "If half or more of the unit is obscured, the whole unit counts as obscured." It is quite specific. If you have 15 killa-kans in an apocalypse unit, and 14 of them are within 6" of the KFF....then 15th one does not get an obscure save. Nor does the third one of three, where two are in KFF range. Traditionally they have - I agree. 50% ruling in the rules.

But this is quite explicit in defying the general ruling for determining squadron cover.

Dashofpepper wrote:This probably belongs in the YMDC forums.

I fail to understand why some of you guys would believe that a kan (third kan out of three) that is not within range of the KFF would get a save?

The FAQ says "Only those within 6" of the KFF field will count as obscured."

That doesn't extrapolate into "If half or more of the unit is obscured, the whole unit counts as obscured." It is quite specific. If you have 15 killa-kans in an apocalypse unit, and 14 of them are within 6" of the KFF....then 15th one does not get an obscure save. Nor does the third one of three, where two are in KFF range. Traditionally they have - I agree. 50% ruling in the rules.

But this is quite explicit in defying the general ruling for determining squadron cover.

Sorry Dash, but you are wrong on this one.
All the FAQ did was clarify that the majority of the squad must be in KFF range for the squad to gain obscurement, rather than having just one Kan, as some were trying to play it.
When you read the FAQ alongside the rules for squadrons, which is what you must do, if 2 Kans are in range, they gain the KFF benefit. Then, because the unit is 50% obscured, the entire squad gains it. If less than 1/2 are in KFF range, then none of them get it.

well the faq doesnt actually say anything that you just posted.... at all.

Yes it does. I merely summed up the aplicable rules. Let me clarify the rules, in detail.

Ork FAQ:
"Q: What cover save does kustom force field give to a vehicle within 6" of it? (p35)
A: 4+. Note that for a squadron of vehicles only those within 6” of the custom force filed will count as obscured."

Those within 6" gain obscured. Period.

Now, look at the rules for determining cover saves for squadrons - BRB, p 64 right column, second paragraph:
"Then he takes any cover saves available to the squadron - use the rules for vehicles to determine if each squadron memeber is in cover, ...and then the rules for normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not"

Rules for normal units, p. 22:
"If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and ALL of its models may take cover saves."

This means that according to the FAQ, those within 6" gain obscured. So, if 2 of the Kans of a squad are in range, they both gain obsurement.
Then we look at the rules for normal units. WOW! Over 1/2 the unit is granted cover, so the entire squadron is deemed in cover/obscured, so "all of its models may take cover saves".

It is pretty cut and dry. Cover saves for squadrons are "all or nothing", and nothing in the FAQ overrides that.

If 1/2 or more of the Kan squadron is in KFF range, they all have cover saves. If not, then none of them do.

Edited for spelling, clarity, etc...

Alerian, there are two statements to compare:

Squadron rule: If more than half of a unit are obscured, the entire unit counts as obscured.

Ork FAQ: Only models within the KFF bubble count as obscured.

There is a constradiction between those two statements. The Ork FAQ doesn't give you permission to count any other models as obscured. Before that FAQ ruling was made...you simply followed the squadron rules. But now, the Ork FAQ is explicitly instructing you to do otherwise.

If you take a cover save for being obscured on a vehicle model that is not within the KFF's 6" bubble...you have just violated the FAQ ruling. Which explicitly says that models outside the bubble do not count as obscured. You can't apply the squadron rule to override it either - use of a general ruling to overrule a specific ruling isn't permitted.

And that's what it comes down to.

General rule: If more than half of a squadron is obscured, the entire squadron counts as obscured.
Specific rule: Only models within the KFF may be counted as obscured.

Luckily there was another FAQ released with this one that clears it up! Whenever two rules contradict each other, you refer to THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE!

Dash's arguement is that because the FAQ states "only", that it implies that other killa kans cannot gain obscured despite the squadron rule.

However, if you want to extend this arguement to sillyness, you could make the arguement that ork squadrons cannot gain obscured saves at all EXCEPT with a KFF as it states that "only those within 6” of the custom force filed will count as obscured."

However, I don't think that's intention of the FAQ.

I guess I have to side with Dash on this one.

"Note that for a squadron of vehicles only those within 6” of the custom force filed will count as obscured."

Is completely unambiguous to my mind. If it was otherwise, I'm sure they would have stated it in the answer to the question.

I read it as, those models are obscured, so we need to reference the obscure rules.

Uhhh I'm sort of surprised you have this one so wrong Dash, considering your Ork background.

If you have a unit of 3 Kans, You don't PICK one of those Kans and fire at it. You fire at the SQUADRON.

Yeah, every vehicle in the squadron within 6" counts as obscured... and then the vehicle squadron rules say that if 50% of the squad is obscured, then they take cover saves.

You're insinuating some sort of weirdness where if you got 3 hits against a squad of 3 Kans and 2 were in KFF and 1 was not, that you would allocate each hit, but only the two Kans in KFF range would be allowed the cover save, and not the third. This is exactly how it would work if the 3 Kans were NOT in a squad. If they ARE in a squadron through, you follow the rules for vehicle squadrons when one or more vehicles in the squadron are obscured.

Nothing in the Ork FAQ tells you to ignore the rules for vehicle squadrons when determining cover saves. It just clarifies which vehicles count as Obscured.

Murrdox wrote:
It just clarifies which vehicles count as Obscured.

Yes, it does. Where the squadron rule tells you that if 50% of a unit is obscured, the entire unit is obscured....the Ork codex tells you the opposite. The ONLY models who are obscured are the ones within 6" of the KFF.

If you allocate a hit to a kan outside of the KFF's 6" bubble, then attempt to make a cover save - you have just violated the FAQ's clarification.

Im not sure how the FAQ is telling the oppisite, it simply clarifies the save and which models are obscured.

Ork FAQ:
"Q: What cover save does kustom force field give to a vehicle within 6" of it? (p35)
A: 4+. Note that for a squadron of vehicles only those within 6” of the custom force filed will count as obscured."

I am just not seeing how this over rides the squadren rules as it makes no reference to them, or says only the obscured models get the save.

Also is there any precedence in 5th edition for part of a unit to have cover and the other not?