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Hey all,

So I recently began to share an utter dislike for the future of 40k, it seems like the only way to win is Mech Spam and big guns; as a Ork player, that is discouraging. On top of that, with every codex the is released, i feel that Matt Ward is pushing this gimmicky, mechy feeling 40k further and further down our throats. I do not plan on giving up on 40k, but I have always preferred the Fantasy lore.

Now first thing is first, I need your help choosing an army. After playing Orks in 40k for so long, I want something that doesn't struggle to win each fight because most other books outclass it in key areas. That being said, I don't want a Cheesey, OP army either. At first glance Warriors of Chaos seemed fun, but they remind me too much of fantasy spesce maweens, and i just couldn't look at them with anything but disdain. Orks and Gobbos seem much less Underpowered in this game, and I have to admit, i do have a green soft soft in my heart that longs to be filled with their violent charisma. However, I really want to try a new army, with a new play style....

The army I am really looking at is Dwarfs. They seem hardy, good at CC and Shooting, I like the idea of their Anti-Magic abilities (Although I think I will long to shoot firery lazers from my eyes). I like their lore, and their untis look cool. What do ya'll think? Please diverge to me the pros and cons of this army. And I would love to hear from some players who have played Dwarfs and learn how they feel about the current state of the army.

Also, nothing is set in stone. If you have other armies you would like to recommend, i would love to hear your feedback.

Thank you all for your time!

Dwarves are pretty awesome. They have some of the best warmachines in the game. They are also really tough with their anti-magic. At least for me because I run High Elves. Dwarves would be a fun army for sure. But if your interested in Dwarves check out Empire as well. They are similar with using warmachines and such and they actually have some magic. They seem to be a little more balanced then Dwarves I personally think.

But if you like Dwarves go for it!

Standard dwarf competitive armies are based aorund anti-magic, lots of shooting and big blocks of infantry to clean up the mess if that appeals to you then welcome my dawi friend

I am really liking Dwarves the more i read into them, however, I want to make sure that this is an army, that with proper tactics, they can stand up to most other armies. Are Dwarves diverse enough to face any list? or are they a one trick pony, hammer and anvil? To clarify, are there any lists that a dwarf player would just expect to lose against? or given the right tactics and circumstances, could a Dwarf army succeed almost anywhere?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*Sighs* I cant believe I am asking this, but can someone also tell me a bit about WoC and compare them to Dawi?

Tons of options with dwarfs. Gun lines, basic combat as their troops are really good, and ambushing dwarfs using scouting rangers and miners for some in their face action. The rune system is also cool allowing you to customize your own magic weapons, think of it is like socketing gems if you ever played Warcraft. Plus the battalion is really good value.

Dwarfen Pros: Anti-magic, guns, armour, LD, higher numbers than WoC, unique runes, some excellent specialist units
Dwarfen Cons: Slow movement, No magic, awful Initiative, no access to magic items, no cavalry

Woc Pros: Decent movement, high Initiative, good magic, LD, Armour, powerful units overall
Woc Cons: Almost no shooting at all, very high points costs in general.

Personally, I have Woc and VC for fantasy, and I find the Woc far better.

If you want an army with lots and lots of good and competive options then O'n'G is your friend. There are so many good units in the army book!

Anyway, about Dwarves - they are good and they are really awesome if you enjoy shooting. I'm actually planning to start a Dwarf army myself once i'm done with my O'n'G. However, some people will complain if you go heavy gunline in WHFB because it's really strong.

So my biggest question is Which army do you think i will have more fun with? I really Like Dwarves and I have always like Orks. WoC Seem cool, but i still feel iffy about them. I just want to make sure, which ever army i choose to play, that I will have fun with. I loved my 40k Orks, and I did have fun with them, but I had to go into every match a little less than confident because Ork's aged codex just doesn't share the oomph that most of the newer books have. Whats very important to me is to find a army that I like, but i don't want to have to really struggle to win each fight. Again, I don't want to necessarily play a power army (*COUGH* Skaven), but I don't want to have to expect that defeat is almost automatic because of the book i play.

If you don't go with what you like you won't like building/painting your army and even playing it. Fantasy is a lot more balanced then 40k, it's more strategic. Dwarfs are a very solid choice and from what I hear are tearing it up in Storm of Magic if you want to dabble in that.

GalacticZ wrote:So my biggest question is Which army do you think i will have more fun with? I really Like Dwarves and I have always like Orks. WoC Seem cool, but i still feel iffy about them. I just want to make sure, which ever army i choose to play, that I will have fun with. I loved my 40k Orks, and I did have fun with them, but I had to go into every match a little less than confident because Ork's aged codex just doesn't share the oomph that most of the newer books have. Whats very important to me is to find a army that I like, but i don't want to have to really struggle to win each fight. Again, I don't want to necessarily play a power army (*COUGH* Skaven), but I don't want to have to expect that defeat is almost automatic because of the book i play.

If you want a fun and a little random army then Skave and O'n'G are probably your best bet. Skaven is a top army and at the same time a fun army to play! Only downside is that you need to paint a lot of rats. But the upside is that Island of Blood is really cheap if you share it with a friend who might want to start playing High Elves.

Chaos is good times an evil angry cannon cure troops that are better than your elite troops.
Nasty magic blood for the blood god, super Killy lords.
Super cool models awesome fluff, cheap.

cowpow16 wrote:Chaos is good times an evil angry cannon cure troops that are better than your elite troops.
Nasty magic blood for the blood god, super Killy lords.
Super cool models awesome fluff, cheap.

Lol dude, i am not really understanding what you're trying to say.

So Fantasy Is balanced? So I can actually pick an army that i like and still win? Wow, thats impressive. Lets hope Matt Ward doesn't start writing books here. Lol!

GalacticZ wrote:So Fantasy Is balanced? So I can actually pick an army that i like and still win? Wow, thats impressive. Lets hope Matt Ward doesn't start writing books here. Lol!

Well, we'll see what happens to Ogres when they get here, and certain other armies will have a very rough time getting to a "competitive" level. Are all armies fun in their own right? Sure. Can you pick up Wood Elves and expect to hold your own in the first few games? Probably not.

GalacticZ wrote:

cowpow16 wrote:Chaos is good times an evil angry cannon cure troops that are better than your elite troops.
Nasty magic blood for the blood god, super Killy lords.
Super cool models awesome fluff, cheap.

Lol dude, i am not really understanding what you're trying to say.

So Fantasy Is balanced? So I can actually pick an army that i like and still win? Wow, thats impressive. Lets hope Matt Ward doesn't start writing books here. Lol!

Fantasy is A LOT more balanced than 40k. And the best part is that you see a lot of different armies (though the most common are Chaos and Skaven and then comes High Elves and Empire) and not just Space Marines.

Anyway, what Cowpow tried to say is that Warriors of Chaos (the troops) are better than most armies elite troops. However, they are really expensive in points so they are almost always outnumbered.

If you want a competive army which you will be able to win with, then STAY OUT of - Wood Elves and Beastmen. They can still win games but you really need to outplay your opponent a lot.
If you want a competive yet fun (fun as in a little random and "holy s***" moments) then Skaven and Orcs and Goblins are the best.
If you want a competive but more "serious themed" army then Warriors of Chaos and High Elves are probably the best.
If you want a competive but shooty army then Empire and Dwarves are the best.

I think I have already said in this thread that I play Orcs and Goblins but I might as well do it again. It's a really fun army to play and a lot of cool and random stuff. For example, you can field Night Goblins and put fanatics in the unit. If you're unlucky you'll crush your own Night Goblins but if not they will pack a hard punch on the enemy! It might sound bad that they can kill their own units but meh, Night Goblins are 3 points each model so it doesn't really matter.
But the best part is that Orcs and Goblins probably got the most and useful units in the game. Warriors of Chaos, for example, are very limited. Pretty much only their Warriors and Marauders are good units while Orcs and Goblins got - Savage Orcs, regular Orcs, normal Goblins, Night Goblins, River Trolls, Black Orcs AND snotlings and they all work. And for more detailed info - Wolf Riders, Black Orcs, Spider Riders, Boar Boyz, Big'Uns, Orcs, Savage Orcs -- they all work and a lot more units. I think you get my point! So in other words you can create a very unique army which fits your playstyle! I don't think there's a single unit in the O'n'G army book which is really "meh", all units works.

I might as well tell you that O'n'G got the cheapest (yet really good) heroes and lords in the game! For only 55 points you can get a Orc Big Boss or a Night Goblin Big Boss for just 30 points! That means you can easily put 4 heroes in the same unit and make them dead 'ard!

I'm a little biased but really, O'n'G are amazingly fun and most who have tried them (at least from my experience anyway) usually starts a small O'n'G force themselves.

I know that you play Orks in 40k and might not want to paint another army who looks a lot like your 40k but I promise you that you won't regret it. And hey, Night Goblin lists are really good and competive as well so you don't have to paint a single Orc if you do not want to!

Muppas wrote:

GalacticZ wrote:

cowpow16 wrote:Chaos is good times an evil angry cannon cure troops that are better than your elite troops.
Nasty magic blood for the blood god, super Killy lords.
Super cool models awesome fluff, cheap.

Lol dude, i am not really understanding what you're trying to say.

So Fantasy Is balanced? So I can actually pick an army that i like and still win? Wow, thats impressive. Lets hope Matt Ward doesn't start writing books here. Lol!

Fantasy is A LOT more balanced than 40k. And the best part is that you see a lot of different armies (though the most common are Chaos and Skaven and then comes High Elves and Empire) and not just Space Marines.

Anyway, what Cowpow tried to say is that Warriors of Chaos (the troops) are better than most armies elite troops. However, they are really expensive in points so they are almost always outnumbered.

If you want a competive army which you will be able to win with, then STAY OUT of - Wood Elves and Beastmen. They can still win games but you really need to outplay your opponent a lot.
If you want a competive yet fun (fun as in a little random and "holy s***" moments) then Skaven and Orcs and Goblins are the best.
If you want a competive but more "serious themed" army then Warriors of Chaos and High Elves are probably the best.
If you want a competive but shooty army then Empire and Dwarves are the best.

I think I have already said in this thread that I play Orcs and Goblins but I might as well do it again. It's a really fun army to play and a lot of cool and random stuff. For example, you can field Night Goblins and put fanatics in the unit. If you're unlucky you'll crush your own Night Goblins but if not they will pack a hard punch on the enemy! It might sound bad that they can kill their own units but meh, Night Goblins are 3 points each model so it doesn't really matter.
But the best part is that Orcs and Goblins probably got the most and useful units in the game. Warriors of Chaos, for example, are very limited. Pretty much only their Warriors and Marauders are good units while Orcs and Goblins got - Savage Orcs, regular Orcs, normal Goblins, Night Goblins, River Trolls, Black Orcs AND snotlings and they all work. And for more detailed info - Wolf Riders, Black Orcs, Spider Riders, Boar Boyz, Big'Uns, Orcs, Savage Orcs -- they all work and a lot more units. I think you get my point! So in other words you can create a very unique army which fits your playstyle! I don't think there's a single unit in the O'n'G army book which is really "meh", all units works.

I might as well tell you that O'n'G got the cheapest (yet really good) heroes and lords in the game! For only 55 points you can get a Orc Big Boss or a Night Goblin Big Boss for just 30 points! That means you can easily put 4 heroes in the same unit and make them dead 'ard!

I'm a little biased but really, O'n'G are amazingly fun and most who have tried them (at least from my experience anyway) usually starts a small O'n'G force themselves.

I know that you play Orks in 40k and might not want to paint another army who looks a lot like your 40k but I promise you that you won't regret it. And hey, Night Goblin lists are really good and competive as well so you don't have to paint a single Orc if you do not want to!

Like I've said man, I love Orks, and I was seriously considering playing OnG in WFB, but right now, money is a bit too tight for another Horde army, plus I don't want to have to dedicate the next year of my life to painting 3000 points of greenskins. Thats why Dwarves and WoC are starting to appeal to me. As much as I love Fantasy Orks, and GOD do i love them (Played WAR online as a Choppa for 2 years), i don't think i have the time or money to play OnG.

GalacticZ wrote: Like I've said man, I love Orks, and I was seriously considering playing OnG in WFB, but right now, money is a bit too tight for another Horde army, plus I don't want to have to dedicate the next year of my life to painting 3000 points of greenskins. Thats why Dwarves and WoC are starting to appeal to me. As much as I love Fantasy Orks, and GOD do i love them (Played WAR online as a Choppa for 2 years), i don't think i have the time or money to play OnG

Very well then! Then Warriors of Chaos would be your best bet, or you could wait a month or two for the new Ogre Kingdom army book!

God Guys, I am really stuck between Dwarves and WoC now. I really like the models of WoC, but i can't shake the feeling that they are a power army that everyone plays. That being said, I see their Book was written by Phill Kelly, who is a fantastic codex writer. I love the fact that you can diversify your units by giving them the different chaos god marks, I have always enjoyed that. But their utter lack of ranged combat also worries me.

My only issue with Dwarfs is that I feel that they are turning into a shooty army, like beefier Tau. They are great in the shooting phase, and not to great in the CC. Plus they seem incredibly easy to flank. I always envisioned Dwarf warriors being hard as hell, and refusing to die. It seems to me that, for their points, Dwarf CC units lack some major oomph. I don't want to make a Gunline list like every other dawi player out there...

Can anyone help me out here?

GalacticZ wrote:God Guys, I am really stuck between Dwarves and WoC now. I really like the models of WoC, but i can't shake the feeling that they are a power army that everyone plays. That being said, I see their Book was written by Phill Kelly, who is a fantastic codex writer. I love the fact that you can diversify your units by giving them the different chaos god marks, I have always enjoyed that. But their utter lack of ranged combat also worries me.

I have the same issue as you! I wanted to play Blood Angels but I refused to because of how stupidly strong they are. But don't worry, Warriors of Chaos aren't on the same level as the Blood Angels. I actually love playing against Warriors of Chaos with my Orcs! They give them a proper fight!

What also makes WoC so unique is as you mentioned their marks. The only problem I have personally with Warriors of Chaos is that they have very limited units. Most of them are complete garbage or overpriced, while the Warriors are balanced. Well, sort of anyway. Tzeentch marked Warriors are pretty stupid but not broken.

Galactic> wrote: My only issue with Dwarfs is that I feel that they are turning into a shooty army, like beefier Tau. They are great in the shooting phase, and not to great in the CC. Plus they seem incredibly easy to flank. I always envisioned Dwarf warriors being hard as hell, and refusing to die. It seems to me that, for their points, Dwarf CC units lack some major oomph. I don't want to make a Gunline list like every other dawi player out there...

Don't worry, Dwarves are fine in close combat. Sure, they can never be as good as, let's say, Warriors of Chaos but they got a great mix of units. For example, your regular Dwarf Warriors can use Great Weapons and ALL your units have at least T4. That will make sure to give any enemy a tough time, even Warriors of Chaos.

Also, I remember I played against a pretty cool army. He used Ironbreakers as his "wall" and the rest of his army was a gunline and it really was cool to play against! His tactic was pretty simple yet effective - shoot as many units as possible with the Thunderers and Cannons and then kill as many of my Orcs and Goblins as possible with his Ironbreakers (T4, parry save and 3 armour save sure takes a lot of time to kill!)

Also from my experience most WHFB players are more friendly than 40k. But it might just be where I live.

GalacticZ wrote:Lets hope Matt Ward doesn't start writing books here. Lol!

He already did. His Daemons of Chaos book single-handedly destroyed 7th edition. From what I've gathered by lurking at different forums, he's banned from writing more WHFB stuff.

good lord, thank god. I hate his books, he ruined 40k for me and my beloved orks.

Yeah they'll never be as good as a Chaos Warrior but how many points is a Chaos Warrior like 17? Dwarf with great weapon is 10.

Hargus56 wrote:Yeah they'll never be as good as a Chaos Warrior but how many points is a Chaos Warrior like 17? Dwarf with great weapon is 10.

Yup! Dwarves in close combat really are scary.

They are if they live till combat haha.
But hey who dosnt love a chaos warrior with mok additional hand weapon and razor standard ya dwarf save against that haha.

Still they are expensive, people that play the half pints are usually running around with cannons and black powder. Yes there are combat units but usually not enough I like cc dwarfs.

Has anyone done any math to find out if the smaller base size gives an advantage. Our hordes meet, Chaos Warriors 10 wide Dwarfs can still have full attacks against that 10 wide being 14 wide.

Dwarf Hammerers enough for 4 ranks is 56 without command is 672
Chaos Warriors enough for 4 ranks is 40 no command, with halbreds with MoK is 670

Round 1:
Chaos Warriors strike first 50 attacks, 25 hit, 16.6 wound so 17
Dwarf Hammers then strike last 39 attacks (-17 dead Dwarfs), 19 hit, 15.8 wound so 16

Round 2:
Chaos Warriors strike first 44 attacks, 22 hit, 14.6 wound so 15
Dwarf Hammers then strike last 24 attacks, 12 hit, 10 wound
Dwarfs are stubborn so testing on a LD9, if BSB is nearby even better they stay

Round 3:
Chaos Warriors strike first 34 attacks, 17 hit, 11.3 wound so 11
Dwarf Hammers then strike last 13 attacks, 6-7 hit, 5.4 wound so 5 wound

Round 4:
Chaos Warriors strike first 27 attacks, 13-14 hit, 9 wound
Dwarf Hammers then strike last 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1-2 wound

Wow, still Chaos Warriors win the 3 attacks is utterly brutal. Extra hand weapons while giving the warriors an extra attack in the front rank would have been wounding on 4s instead of 5 and giving the dwarfs a 6+ armor save with their heavy armor and I'm too lazy to figure out every situation. But you can see they still did pretty well especially in the first few rounds and you have to consider some shooting before hand with war machines but also on the other end some possible Miasmas or buffs or magic damage on the other end.

First off I dont know too many people that would even bother running warriors in such large units.
Just madness madness.

Also a wise man once told me mathhammer is nice but those six sided cubes can be fickle if you try to manipulate or predict them.

Still chaos warriors are really cool and have lots of options.

Maybe try AHW mok and razor standard and see how the fight goes then (im too lazy to do the math that and I have not enough dice handy to roll it out).
Or try mot hand weapon shield that may be fun too.

Just saying math is nice those cubes dont always play by the rules.


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But over all cc with warriors will usually go not so well.

I started as a Fantasy player and tried to make the dive into 40k. My dissatisfaction with 40k is by and large the same as the OP.

Granted I'm a novice, but my casual observation is that it's very shooting/mech focused and it seems to be the case that some armies are much much more powerful than others. I love the way my Black Templar look and I love their background, but I don't like when an unpainted Chrimera/Valkyrie pulls up to my guys and blasts them and drives away.

This might be one of the causes of "army of the month" syndrome, in which everyone with a generic grey Power Armor army uses "counts-as" armies of whatever happens to be the most powerful thing. In my experience, this doesn't happen at all in Fantasy.

Despite all of it's faults, Fantasy is a pretty balanced game in this edition in that nearly every army is competitive. There is not a single army that is so bad you can't win. The only possible exception to this is Wood Elves, whose play-style was drastically weakened by the new rules.

The most telling moment for me was what I heard in a 40k podcast I was listening to a while back. The hosts were talking about how experienced vets should help new players choose an army. Rather than helping new folks choose an army whose look and background appeal to them, they recommended that you help them pick an army that's going to be viable. If they choose the wrong one and lose all the time, they won't have any fun and they will quit. That doesn't really sit right with me.

"Oh yea hey dude, it's cool if you like the Necrons, but you should check out these guys right here. The Blood Angels are Space Vampires who wear red armor and praise the emperor a lot. And if you don't like them, there are these guys here. Space Wolves are Wolf Vikings in Space that wear grey armor and praise the emperor a lot. What do you mean you can't tell the difference? Don't worry that's because you're new. Once you get the hang of the scene you'll see that 90% of the people here switch between playing these two."

This is really not the case for Fantasy.

To the OP: find whichever army you like the minis and the background of the most. The designers did a pretty good job of making the background and "feel" of the army match their play style.

I think ima go with Dwarfs, even though in every battle report i've seen, they lose, lol. I see they are in route for a new book early next year. By then, I should have around 2000 points painted up. Hopefully i wont have to start over.

I just hope dwarfs are good at cc. Because playing orks in 40k, i always use cc, and if hardened dwarf long-beards (The toughest most grizzled vets) die to 90% of other armies vet troops... that feels lame...

Hey don't be talking smack about BA. Those guys are awesome especially the dc models and the sang guard.
Other than that I know how you feel and what you are talking about.

Don't worry if they lose in battle reports most of the time it's just some armythrown together.
I have seen that lots with woc bat reps it just hurts to see a terribly put together army that is incoherent and all.

Seiously go with the models and fluff that you like it since as was said pretty much everything can win, some just have a harder time as in WE and brets mainly.
Still you can win with them those six sided cubes decide the fate of the game usually that plus a little skill and you are set.

So to recap don't talk smack about the space vampires, read fluff, look at models go with which ever army has the coolest models and fluff and go from there

GalacticZ wrote:I think ima go with Dwarfs, even though in every battle report i've seen, they lose, lol. I see they are in route for a new book early next year. By then, I should have around 2000 points painted up. Hopefully i wont have to start over.

I just hope dwarfs are good at cc. Because playing orks in 40k, i always use cc, and if hardened dwarf long-beards (The toughest most grizzled vets) die to 90% of other armies vet troops... that feels lame...

Dwarves are good in CC but you should always get some Thunderers as well. As stated earlier, Dwarf Warriors with great weapons are scary!

Oh and good luck with your army!