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Help me through this.

The Venom comes stock with a twin-linked splinter rifle (mounted on top) and a splinter cannon (mounted under the pilot). Check.

The Venom does not mention a crew, though I would hope the pilot is assumed

Who uses the splinter rifle (mounted on top)? Is there a 2nd crewmember for the Venom that is not mentioned, or do you require an embarked unit on the Venom to use the splinter rifle?

The reason I ask is because I don't want to model a permanent gunner on the top of the Venom if there isn't one

The weapons are usable in the rules as specified for vehicles. Don't try to over think the crew and how it was modeled. Crew other than Pask for IG and Chronus for SM are abstracted. Even FW has given up on crew rules.

Having said that, you could always model up a crewman to fire the weapon.

Homer

You don't want to model the gunner for a gun you intend to fire?

The model comes with a gunner for the top weapon.
Similar to the front gunner on a raider or ravager.
The codex doesn't show the number of crewmen on vehicles anymore, so it makes no difference as far as transport capacity is concerned.

I know it comes with one... I just wasn't sure of the OP's angle. He either doesn't intend to fire it anyway or he's asking if it's allowable to not model the gunner.

Plenty of people model un-manned pintle Storm Bolters and use them in-game - that's a pretty casual precedent but it's good enough for me.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I know it comes with one... I just wasn't sure of the OP's angle. He either doesn't intend to fire it anyway or he's asking if it's allowable to not model the gunner.

Plenty of people model un-manned pintle Storm Bolters and use them in-game - that's a pretty casual precedent but it's good enough for me.

I wasn't sure either.
You would have to model the weapo at least.
You need to have the weapon to measure LOS and range from.

I didn't want to permanently model a gunner for the top weapon if the "gunner" was actually an embarked passenger of a Wych squad.

See what I mean?

It's not a question of transport capacity.

I'm sorry for any confusion. I guess what I'm trying to say is -

Q. Is the top weapon on the Venom fired by a Venom crew member - OR - is the top weapon on the Venom fired by an embarked passenger?

Scott_K wrote:I didn't want to permanently model a gunner for the top weapon if the "gunner" was actually an embarked passenger of a Wych squad.

See what I mean?

It's not a question of transport capacity.

I'm sorry for any confusion. I guess what I'm trying to say is -

Q. Is the top weapon on the Venom fired by a Venom crew member - OR - is the top weapon on the Venom fired by an embarked passenger?

Rules answer: You don't require a model up there to fire it, so it doesn't effect gameplay in any way.

Fluff answer: The model appears to be up there firing it, so that probably is a gunner, and not an embarked wych. But, you could easily argue that the top weapon system is tied into the underslung weapon system, so the pilot controls both.

Also, check out the description of the model on the GW website: "The kit includes two Wyches that represent a unit being transported into battle, a third Wych firing the on-board splinter cannon and a clear plastic canopy, giving you the option to paint the pilot and still be able to see him once the kit is fully assembled."
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1230008a

It seems that the center Wych, firing the cannon, is NOT part of the unit being transported.

Scott_K wrote:
Q. Is the top weapon on the Venom fired by a Venom crew member - OR - is the top weapon on the Venom fired by an embarked passenger?

It is most probably a crew member because it doesn't lose the ability to fire the weapon once the passengers have disembarked.

The gunner is not an embarked passenger, but rather is a crew member.

Scott_K wrote:I didn't want to permanently model a gunner for the top weapon if the "gunner" was actually an embarked passenger of a Wych squad.

See what I mean?

It's not a question of transport capacity. I guess what I'm trying to say is -

Q. Is the top weapon on the Venom fired by a Venom crew member - OR - is the top weapon on the Venom fired by an embarked passenger?

I think the intent is that it is a crew member. Or more to the point, it fires with the BS profile of the Venom, as a Venom Weapon system. Perhaps, like a pintle mounted storm bolter it can be fired remotely by the pilot, slaved to its other weapons. Rules wise you don't loose the standard attacks of the passenger crewing the weapon (in the passenger crewed theory) or get an extra heavy weapon profile added to the passengers.

Scott: I, too, think it's lame to model a wyche-gunner on a transport that in practice doesn't carry wyches (WFT, GamesWorkshop? ).

I use venoms for Trueborn. So, I took the Kabalite gunner from the raider/ravager and swiched 'em. I'll have a wyche gunner in my raiders, which are fulla wyches and the warrior lookin' dude in the venom.

Keep in mind, if you're playing in tourneys, having the gunner on the venom will probably help your army's appearance/paint score.

I wouldn't put the gunner up there. I'd use that space to put a guy from the unit it's transporting.

I modelled mine with the gunners.
I place a marker on the venom to show which unit is being transported leaving them off the board.

Seeing as how the gunner isn't hull it doesn't really matter. I found it easier to build them with the gunner there to hold the weapon in place. I normally just set one model to represent the squad on the table next to, or behind, the venom to denote which squad is where...currently I'm working on conversions so that the guys hanging on will represent the squad inside...ie incubi. I think you can still fit a nonmetal model on the platform with the gunner still there.

Scott_K wrote:Q. Is the top weapon on the Venom fired by a Venom crew member - OR - is the top weapon on the Venom fired by an embarked passenger?

Since the rules don't say that the vehicle requires a passenger to fire the weapon, it's not fired by a passenger. We can assume that this means there is a crewman to fire it, but ruleswise it makes no difference if you assume it's fired by a separate crewman, by the driver, by some sort of remote device, or just waggles off a shot at random every time the driver turns to the right, since the current vehicle rules don't deal with vehicle crew at all.

There is a crewman model to man it, though.

and even crew are pretty much ignored for TLOS reasons....so it would seem the answer is:

model it however you want, as long as it retains its orginal profile/size (so not getting overly taller wider or the opposite), and is mounted on its orginal base, and it retains WYSIWYG as much as possible

other then that have at it.

Excellent. Thank you very much for your answers.

Also, the stocck venom has the Spliner Cannon on top and the twin linked rifle underslug. THe opposite of what you said in the OP.