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One of the things that bugs me the most about the Space Marine Codex is the inconsistencies of what weapon goes where; If my Dreadnought can take a Multi-Melta, why can't my Predator?

So, I've come up with the idea of assigning each weapon used by vehicles a "Size" class, that determines who can take it, and where it goes.

Light Weapon: Twin Linked Bolter, Astartes Grenade Launcher, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter

Medium Weapon: Assault Cannon, Autocannon, Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannon, Multi-Melta, Lascannon

Heavy Weapon: Twin Linked Heavy Bolter, Twin Linked Heavy Flamer, Twin Linked Lascannon, Hurricane Bolter, Flamestorm Cannon, Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon(and variants), Twin Linked Autocannon

Heavy Ordinance: Demolisher Cannon, Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher, Thunderfire Cannon

Now, the idea here is that, rather than having a list of weapons a certain vehicle can take, a vehicle would have, say, a Medium Weapon turret and two Medium Weapon sponsons. That would be the Predator. A Land Raider would have two Heavy Weapon slots and a Pintle Mounted Medium slot, while a Razorback would have a single Heavy Weapon Turret. This would really let you customize your vehicles, taking, say, a Land Raider with a Twin Linked Assault Cannon in each sponson, and a Plasma Cannon for a pintle. Each weapon would need a fixed Points Cost, while Dreadnoughts would have a rule that lets them take Heavy Weapons or Medium Weapons in the same slot, for a higher cost.

Because they have specific roles, and Predators don't fulfill the same "Assault/Close Support" role that Dreadnoughts do.

I say it's a pretty good idea. Good way to simplify army building, and honestly, I don't know why they don't do it that way. Could pretty easily swap it around for other races as well.

Could you mount weapons of a 'lighter' grade in a heavier slot?

Anvildude wrote:I say it's a pretty good idea. Good way to simplify army building, and honestly, I don't know why they don't do it that way. Could pretty easily swap it around for other races as well.

Could you mount weapons of a 'lighter' grade in a heavier slot?

Because you don't mount weapons based on weight grades.

You mount them based on roles.

You realize that the weapons can define the roles, right?

A Humvee is a troop transport. Mount a sonic cannon on it, and it's an anti-riot self-propelled artillery platform. Put a stonkin' great chemical laser on it (yes, we actually have those now!) and you have a mobile mine, missile, and unexploded ordinance clearer.

Similarly, take a Rhino chassis, put a Lascannon on the back, you have a Razorback, a fast, light, tank hunting vehicle. But put a twin-linked Bolter on it, you have an APC. Put 3 or 4 lascannons on it, you have a mobile weapons platform.

Similarly, put a couple twin-linked autocannons on a Dread, and you have something best suited for taking out light armour. Put on a Plasma cannon, a DCCW and a Melta, you have anti- heavy infantry. Heavy Flamers and a couple Blood Talons? Anti- horde. 4 DCCWs? a CC monster, good for taking on other Dreads or heavy armour.

Anvildude wrote:You realize that the weapons can define the roles, right?

That's not actually how it usually works, but okay. You don't mount a heavy cannon to bust tanks on an APC, you mount it on a tank destroyer.

A Humvee is a troop transport. Mount a sonic cannon on it, and it's an anti-riot self-propelled artillery platform. Put a stonkin' great chemical laser on it (yes, we actually have those now!) and you have a mobile mine, missile, and unexploded ordinance clearer.

A Humvee(HMMWV) is not a "troop transport". It's a platform for multiple roles. The actual name for the platform is the High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle(HMMWV).
The role the Humvee was designed for is ferrying light cargo and personnel behind the front lines. It wasn't designed for combat, but was converted to it later on.

Similarly, take a Rhino chassis, put a Lascannon on the back, you have a Razorback, a fast, light, tank hunting vehicle. But put a twin-linked Bolter on it, you have an APC. Put 3 or 4 lascannons on it, you have a mobile weapons platform.

You realize that a lot more goes into the Rhino variants than that, yes?
To use your Razorback example:
They add in enough energy producing batteries/ammo stowage to give a Combat Squad a much bigger punch. It's like the difference between the M113 APC that the military used and the Bradley IFV. The AAV is designed to ferry troops into combat, the Bradley is designed to fight alongside of those troops.

Similarly, put a couple twin-linked autocannons on a Dread, and you have something best suited for taking out light armour.

Actually, the Mortis pattern with TL-Autocannons was created by the Unforgiven(Dark Angels and their Successors) to give Deathwing forces a mobile base of heavy fire against infantry groups and light vehicles.

Put on a Plasma cannon, a DCCW and a Melta, you have anti- heavy infantry.

Plasma Cannons aren't specifically used to counter "heavy infantry". They're multipurpose weapons which are used to counter infantry groups, vehicles, structures, etc.

Heavy Flamers and a couple Blood Talons? Anti-horde.

The actual "anti-horde" pattern is the assault cannon/DCCW with heavy flamer/storm bolter variant.

4 DCCWs? a CC monster, good for taking on other Dreads or heavy armour.

What Dread ever carries four close combat weapons at once?

I get that you "it's cool", but it's also unnecessary.

The M113 is the Rhino, the Bradley is the Razorback. Think of it like that. M113 even looks like it.

Yeah, I was originally going to compare the AAV instead of the M113 and you can tell from the second part.

What Dreadnaught has 4CC weapons? A Deff-Dread by orks.

Waaagh.

And the thing with the batteries and such? Yeah, those could easily be considered parts of the 'weapons system' that's been mounted in the chassis.

I'm just saying, when the Imperium seems to have maybe 3 or 4 basic hulls that they then outfit with varying weapons systems, it's not the vehicle itself that's determining its battlefield role, it's the weapons system (or lack thereof) that's determining that. Just look at some of the Land Raider variants, and think of how you use them most often in the game.

And the Imperium wouldn't be the only ones to have that sort of distinction on their vehicles. It makes a lot of sense for other races as well, like Tau, Orks, DE...

I don't see the need for this tbh; just list the weapon options in the unit entry (like they do at the moment) and you're done...

Anvildude wrote:Waaagh.

And the thing with the batteries and such? Yeah, those could easily be considered parts of the 'weapons system' that's been mounted in the chassis.

I'm just saying, when the Imperium seems to have maybe 3 or 4 basic hulls that they then outfit with varying weapons systems, it's not the vehicle itself that's determining its battlefield role, it's the weapons system (or lack thereof) that's determining that. Just look at some of the Land Raider variants, and think of how you use them most often in the game.

Look at the fluff on them, Anvildude. The weapons get outfitted on the chassis specifically so that a role can be filled.

And the Imperium wouldn't be the only ones to have that sort of distinction on their vehicles. It makes a lot of sense for other races as well, like Tau, Orks, DE...

The Tau, Dark Eldar, Eldar, etc all mount weapons based on needs.

i really like this, also include rules that if a certain amount of certain size weapons are used then the vehicle loses transport, due to ammo capacities, and vice versa of course

Kanluwen wrote:

Anvildude wrote:Waaagh.

And the thing with the batteries and such? Yeah, those could easily be considered parts of the 'weapons system' that's been mounted in the chassis.

I'm just saying, when the Imperium seems to have maybe 3 or 4 basic hulls that they then outfit with varying weapons systems, it's not the vehicle itself that's determining its battlefield role, it's the weapons system (or lack thereof) that's determining that. Just look at some of the Land Raider variants, and think of how you use them most often in the game.

Look at the fluff on them, Anvildude. The weapons get outfitted on the chassis specifically so that a role can be filled.

And the Imperium wouldn't be the only ones to have that sort of distinction on their vehicles. It makes a lot of sense for other races as well, like Tau, Orks, DE...

The Tau, Dark Eldar, Eldar, etc all mount weapons based on needs.

Meanwhile the Orks just mount weapons because they're loud and noisy and make big booms.

That's because Orks are like raccoons. They're silly and love shiny things.

I find that this rule really would simplify vehicular use. It would make more sense to me though, that each weapon would have a cost, and the vehicle itself would be just an empty chassis until given a weapon. like this with a Leman Russ.

Russ chasis ----------- 90pts
Battle cannon ------- 50pts
Punisher cannon --- 80pts
Heavy bolter -------- 10pts

Rhino Chassis: 35 Points
Tank
Transport Capacity: 10 Man
Armor: 11/11/10
BS: 4
Wargear: Light Weapon Slot, Smoke Launchers, Searchlight

Options:
Take a Pintle Mounted Light Weapon Slot: +5 Points

Take a Hunter-Killer Missile: +10 Points

Take a Dozer Blade: +5 Points

Take Extra Armour: +15 Points

May take one of the following;

Reduce the Transport Capacity to 6, Take a turret mounted Heavy Weapon Slot: Free

Exchange the Transtport Capacity for a Turret Mounted Heavy Weapon Slot and Sponson mounted Medium Weapon Slots, the Tank's FOC changes to Heavy Support, +2 Front Armor: 15 Points

Exchange the Transport Capacity for a Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher, the tank's FOC changes to Heavy Support: +50 Points

Exchange the Transport Capacity for a Demolisher Cannon, the Tank's FOC changes to Heavy Support, +2 Front Armor: +80 Points

Rennoc215 wrote:I find that this rule really would simplify vehicular use. It would make more sense to me though, that each weapon would have a cost, and the vehicle itself would be just an empty chassis until given a weapon. like this with a Leman Russ.

Russ chasis ----------- 90pts
Battle cannon ------- 50pts
Punisher cannon --- 80pts
Heavy bolter -------- 10pts

You know what else "simplifies vehicular use"?

The system that exists now, where each variant is given specific armaments.

Nah, Doc Bob, that's still a bit too complicated. More like, you have rules where you can take any lighter weapon in a heavier weapon slot. Then, you have rules about if you mount, say, this many Medium or above weapons, your Transport capacity is reduced by 4, and this many Heavy Weapons, it's reduced by 6, and if you have a Heavy Ordinance weapon, it's removed. The amount reduced would depend on either the army, the weapon, or would just be steady across the board as a Universal Rule.

Different AVs would indicate different Chassis, or different base chassis, anyways. That's how they'd be used.

So, Battlewagon. 90 points, AV 14, 12, 10. Transport 20.
4 Light Weapon slots, 3 Heavy Weapon slots, 1 Heavy Ordinance Weapon slot. (Deffrolla and Wrekin' Ball are Heavy Weapons, since they're basically variants of DCCW)

Special Rule- Wagon: Ork vehicles tend to be big, and Ork weapons tend not to take up much room with safety features. Heavy Weapons do not remove any Transport Capacity, and Heavy Ordinance weapons only reduce it by 10, instead of removing it entirely.

Big Shoota, Rokkit Launcha- Light Weapons

Deffrolla, Wrekkin' Ball, Big Gun- Heavy Weapons

Killkannon- Heavy Ordinance.


It'd change the dynamic a little (Looted wagons would either need a reduction of TC to 10 base, or would be able to carry 2 models (or one in Mega Armour) with a Boomgun)


And Kanluwen? Yeah, we know. This is a fun "What if?" thing.

If it should be "put into play", the only place it should is for Orks.

Everyone else actually uses common sense.

Kanluwen: We're trying to come up with an alternate system for vehicle design. You don't like it. You've made that clear. Now please hush and let us do this in peace.

I think your making tank variants that already exist.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Kanluwen: We're trying to come up with an alternate system for vehicle design. You don't like it. You've made that clear. Now please hush and let us do this in peace.

I don't like it because it's needlessly complicating something that's already simple because you dislike the fact that certain vehicles can't take certain weapons.

Kan, why are you repeating your point? You've made your mark already.

So why are you here? We're not forcing it on you. It's not like we're the actual Game Designers, and it's doubtful that they'll even see this. It's more of a thought excersize (dangit how do you spell exercise?) than anything else- maybe someone will use it as a house rule, but you don't have to.

It's as easy as not clicking on the little link that says "read latest post"



So, non-naysayers, what about my Orky idea? I figure Orks really don't have many Medium weapons, but they treat Heavy weapons like they're smaller than they are. Or, you know, just make them Medium weapons...

Anvildude wrote:So why are you here? We're not forcing it on you.

Open forums, comments and criticisms are welcome as long as they're productive.

Deal with it.

It's not like we're the actual Game Designers

That is understating the obvious.

and it's doubtful that they'll even see this.

And it's even less doubtful that they'd laugh themselves hoarse reading it.

It's more of a thought excersize (dangit how do you spell exercise?) than anything else- maybe someone will use it as a house rule, but you don't have to.

It's as easy as not clicking on the little link that says "read latest post"

And it's as easy as not needlessly complicating things for silly reasons.

There was a system for doing this. It's called the Vehicle Design Rules. It resulted in all kinds of unbalanced crap, simply because there was no real restrictions that were worth mentioning.

So, non-naysayers, what about my Orky idea? I figure Orks really don't have many Medium weapons, but they treat Heavy weapons like they're smaller than they are. Or, you know, just make them Medium weapons...

Or, you know, just realize that Orks "really don't have many Medium weapons" because Orks build their own weapons that do the same thing.

That's the problem with this idea. Robert wants it set up for Astartes, and he's had threads about things like this before where it's "X can take Y, but not Z so let's give X both Y and Z!".

Kulwen and Anvildude may be right, but all we are trying to do is find a fun way to use interesting vehicles for fun games. I feel that this really could move forward if future comments would be posted to advance this thread, and not try to kill it.

Rennoc215 wrote:Kulwen and Anvildude may be right, but all we are trying to do is find a fun way to use interesting vehicles for fun games. I feel that this really could move forward if future comments would be posted to advance this thread, and not try to kill it.

You want "advancing" the idea?

Find the Vehicle Design Rules from Chapter Approved.

Also,

Find the Vehicle Design Rules from Chapter Approved.

There was a system for doing this. It's called the Vehicle Design Rules. It resulted in all kinds of unbalanced crap, simply because there was no real restrictions that were worth mentioning.

As you so delicately put it, the VDR produced far too many overpowered vehicles. But this is not VDR. this is more like a template to modify current vehicles, not to create your own. This gives you freedom to design, but it still has limits. This is producing a neatly organized way to make vehicles, but VDR was chaotic.