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To piggyback the thought of another poster, I am disheartened that there's been nothing to help mono-khorne vs magic. I had considered posting a generic character type along these lines but after some thought I think it'd be better as a gift.

Khorne's Favor ( Mark of Khorne Only )

20 Points - This model gains MR 1 and a 5+ ward. This gift may not be taken if there are any wizards, bound items, or items that bestow wizard levels in your army.

(Strong but with weaker MR than Collar of Khorne and the ward save is vs spells only, unlike Fury of the Blood God. Plus, it straight out bans wizards from your army. )

Chosen of Blood (Mark of Khorne Only )

50 Points

This model is immune to magic. Any unit this model joins gains MR 2. Models in a unit this character joins are immune to the effects of a magical vortex on a roll of a 6+. Roll for each model affected. This gift may not be taken if there are any wizards, bound items, or items that bestow wizard levels in your army.


(Like above, but scaled to a Chaos Lord. This grants him immunity for half the price of a World Dragon banner. It's strong, but again, bans wizards in the army.)


Avatar of the Blood God (Daemon Prince Only; Mark of Khorne Only)

100 Points

This model is immune to magic. At the start of each of your turns before declaring charges, D3 units within 12 inches of this model gain immunity to magic. Enemy wizards within 12 inches of this model suffer -1 to cast and lower any miscast or cataclysmic miscast result by 2. This gift may not be taken if there are any wizards, bound items, or items that bestow wizard levels in your army.



(Strong for sure, but makes a DP of Khorne worthwhile, helps a magic-gimped army defend from spellcasting in a way different than dwarves, and is Khorne Fluffy. Plus, this guy will cost 400 points, which is about what Teclis costs.. and he's sortve an anti-teclis.)

This is the thread that got me thinking.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/387867.page

I can't see any abillities affecting an entire unit. Nearly every powerful ability you see in the game it states the leader can't join a unit unless they also have the ability. For 25 points you can basically give a 300 point deathstar MR, which is about the most cost-efficient use of points in the game.

Likewise, you're not going to see complete immunity from magic. It turns the whole dispell and winds of magic concept on its head. Not even the greatest of Khorne Daemons can do that.

There are spells that do unit-wide buffs, but they need to be cast, they can be dispelled (even on later turns), they can blow up the caster and those around him.

I don't think anyone can argue with a straight face that Khorne WoC is underpowered. They can only say they are weaker than the min-maxing of mixed WoC. But WoC aren't DoC, with their huge rivalries. And even DoC it's said repeatedly they work with each other as the needs arise.

Unit wide MR is easier to get than a 25 point gift. You can spend 15 points and get it already. And it already transfers over to the enitre unit.

That's basic rulebook right there.

"A character with magic resistance confers it to his entire unit." So Im doing nothing groundbreaking there.

Also, HE Banner of the World Dragon grants magic immunity to a unit for 100 points. This gift is as good AS THAT banner of comparable points is, but unlike the high elves, you cant cast out of it at all, because of the no wizard restriction.

I think that balances it out to be on the same level of play.

I agree that nothing should be completely immune. Why not have both MR and add in extra dispel dice like khorne of before?

I just started playing in 8th. I was unaware of Khorne rules from previous versions of the game.

Thunderfrog wrote:That's basic rulebook right there.

"A character with magic resistance confers it to his entire unit." So Im doing nothing groundbreaking there.

Also, HE Banner of the World Dragon grants magic immunity to a unit for 100 points. This gift is as good AS THAT banner of comparable points is, but unlike the high elves, you cant cast out of it at all, because of the no wizard restriction.

I think that balances it out to be on the same level of play.

Didn't know about the MR, sorry.

The difference with the HE banner, which many people have complained about on these forums, is generally carried by wussy little elves in an army that is super magic-heavy. For good or ill, WHFB is hugely about magic. Not as much as combat itself, but I think that's a good comparison. If you could setup whole units that were completely immune to all combat, the Cheese Meter would go off.

I pointed this out in another thread comparing 40K to WHFB. In 40K you can get screwed simply by a list, before the game starts. If someone spends all their points on mages and someone rolls up with all their points in a spell immunity deathstar, that game is almost certainly decided before any dice are rolled or any units placed no matter how good/bad either general is. I think we should avoid situations like that, personally.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Thunderfrog wrote:

If you could setup whole units that were completely immune to all combat, the Cheese Meter would go off.

I pointed this out in another thread comparing 40K to WHFB. In 40K you can get screwed simply by a list, before the game starts. If someone spends all their points on mages and someone rolls up with all their points in a spell immunity deathstar, that game is almost certainly decided before any dice are rolled or any units placed no matter how good/bad either general is. I think we should avoid situations like that, personally.

2200 points can net you 20 wraiths (9 as characters, 11 in units). Add in an ethereal vamp lord, a healthy does of spirit hosts, and then minimum core, you've got an army that is largely immune to combat.

-Matt

Not remotely the same. They still lose combat resolution all the time and get destroyed. They still are vulnerable to magic items, which nearly every hero is going to have.

If ethereal was game breaking, everyone would load up on them in VC, which they don't. And Budda Frogs would be indestructible, which they aren't. I think you know ethereal isn't remotely in the same league as complete immunity to magic.

I think I might be missing something... what's the difference between a ward save that only works against magic, and magic resistance. I mean, isn't magic resistance a ward save that only works against magic?

I think he changed the verbage on the OP. But technically, I guess he himself would be MR2 and confer MR1 on his unit?

It was the simplest way I could think to word it Seb. I'll edit for clarity.

25 Points - This model gains MR 1 and a 6+ ward. Spells that affect this model or a unit this model is joined to only function on a 3+.

6 ward +1 MR = 2 MR. 3+ to cast = 50% magic resist.

That's really damn good. Obsidian Loadstone = 3MR for 45 points. The "only function on 3+" is pretty much 3MR. Except your item also adds another 1 MR separate save and 6+ Ward for the hero. All for 20 points cheaper.

The Collar of Khorne (WoC) is MR2 and Ward 6 for 25. Yours is that plus an extra 50% spell resist for the entire unit at same cost.



The penalty of not having Wizards is definately tough. But you can still get bound items and dispels and Wizard Hats or whatever. And if you're going pure deathstar, making yourself immune to magic is basically forcing the enemy into your fight--which you'll win. It'd be like if a Dwarf gunline army had an ability to say everyone on the battlefield moves 1" only. It's a huge penalty, but not if they're just going to shoot the hell out of the enemy, then it's an overwhelming advantage and their own lack of movement is irrelevant.

Also, not even Dwarfs can completely shut down magic. Be magic immune. Enemies can still get off IF and take the pain from that. Being able to basically turn off maybe 1/3 of the game I think is excessive--and I'm first to say I'm not a gigantic fan of magic in 8th, as I don't think it was balanced all that well.

For balance purposes, think of worst case scenarios. Someone is going to make a deathstar that's magic immune and like 75% of its points in it and pass around immunity to other units. From turn 1, some armies will have no chance whatsoever. 500 points in mages? You lose.

"The penalty of not having Wizards is definately tough. But you can still get bound items and dispels and Wizard Hats or whatever. And if you're going pure deathstar, making yourself immune to magic is basically forcing the enemy into your fight--which you'll win. It'd be like if a Dwarf gunline army had an ability to say everyone on the battlefield moves 1" only. It's a huge penalty, but not if they're just going to shoot the hell out of the enemy, then it's an overwhelming advantage and their own lack of movement is irrelevant"


This: I didnt think of. I usually dont run death stars, so it's not my immediate thought.

Hrm.

DukeRustfield wrote:I think he changed the verbage on the OP. But technically, I guess he himself would be MR2 and confer MR1 on his unit?

Ah, I get it now. I was just having a bit of a stupid moment, and not thinking about what confers to the unit and what doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thunderfrog wrote:It was the simplest way I could think to word it Seb. I'll edit for clarity.

Yeah, I like it more when it's just a 6+ ward save, it's a lot cleaner than having it only apply against magic.

The 'unit ignores spell effects on a 3+' is pretty troublesome, what about if it was a 5+ ward and conferrred magic resistance of 1?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thunderfrog wrote:This: I didnt think of. I usually dont run death stars, so it's not my immediate thought.

Hrm.

The basically unlimited scale of most units of the game causes a lot of problems for rules balancing, especially as with hordes and steadfast there's now a lot of reasons to make really big units. Items that affect a whole unit, especially with protection spells, are really hard to balance, because if you price them to be worthwhile for a moderate sized unit, you make them a bargain for a massive unit.

I'm not sure there's much of a solution to this, to be honest.

I agree with Seb on the problems with huge units and no restrictions. I wish they'd add unit caps, but across the board for everyone and tailored to their army book. It would be another way to set the armies apart. Sure, the Skaven can rank up 50 strong, but Warriors and Daemons might have a max size of 25 of so. It was a bother when I could only stack 25 Tomb Guard and no one else was restricted.

I made changes to the OP for more balance. Feedback appreciated, in all capacities. ; )

-Changes -

[b]Khornes Favor[/b]

Removed 3+ spell casting rule from Khornes Favor.

Increased ward to 5+ from 6+ and added MR 1.

Reduced cost to 20 points from 25.

No spellcasters clarified to include no casting from bound items or wizarding hat.

[b]Chosen of Blood[/b]

Altered the 4+ casting clause to the following.."Models in a unit this character joins are immune to the effects of a magical vortex on a roll of a 6+. Roll for each model affected." (This means the unit has a 5+ ward vs wounding spells, and a 17% chance to ignore a vortex. They are still able to be debuffed, and armies that specialize in buffing themselves don't worry too much about this ability. And since most games are open list enviroment, you could easily tailor your spell selection.)

[b]Avatar of Khorne[/b]

Reduced the magic immunity gifting range to 12 inches. Considered lowering it to 6.

Reduced the effect on enemy casters to 12 inches. May also lower this to 6 to force the WoC player to decide between gifting immunity or screwing with the enemy wizard.

I think you increase the cost of Mark of Khorne and in addition it generates an extra dispel dice when placed on a lord or hero. Simple and easy puts it in line with Rune Lords, Rune Smiths and Warrior Priests.

The problem there Hargus is that I dont wanna copy the Rune Lords and Rune Smiths. And it allows you extra dispel dice, which isn't something I see the followers of Khorne being proficient at.

Thunderfrog wrote: And it allows you extra dispel dice, which isn't something I see the followers of Khorne being proficient at.

Well thats what they did before as I mentioned back in Hordes of Chaos (as long as you arent fleeing)

Now I think Khorne's favor is too sucky. If that's the only thing you bought, you'd still not get any Wizards. Crap deal!

The other stuff is a bit too confusing and I'm still not down with magic immunity. Especially immunity from vortexes. I'm pretty sure under description of type in the BRB it actually says, "Vortex: Suck it up, WoC!" I'm joking, but they were nearly defined as anti-mass-elite. It's a risk of compounding all those benefits into giant units in a small area.

I think you need to simplify things and do what Kenshin said. Not necessarily that, but make it something simple like that. The game is defined as dispel dice and power dice. Whether you got wizards or not, you're going to get dispel dice. It's how you get rid of Remains in Play spells. 50pt Dwarf arcane item gives you +1 to dispel attempts. It seems like you're trying to get out of using magic dice at all and I don't think that's happening.

The problem with being "anti-Teclis" is that Teclis turns into a girl in a dress with your abilities and your DP or CL is still a slaughterhouse backed by an indestructible army. This likewise goes for mass-invested Daemon casters, Slann, etc. You're spending 100 or so to make their 400+ investment null.