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Hi all,

I recently started playing Wood Elves, and couldnt help noticing the KB rule on the waywatcherbows. This is not exactly a question about how the rules should be interpreted as they are pretty clear, but for myself, I might even give them the 'Heroic killing blow' special rule. Waywatchers as they are, are specialists at shooting, which allows them to be super-efficient at close range and aiming for the weak spots of the enemy's armor. So why can't they take out huge monsters, characters etc... fluffwise they have no reason to deny them the Heroic Killing Blow. But I do realize that they might be a bit overpowered if they could just run around aiming for the biggest opponents to shoot through the head.

These are my thoughts on the Wood Elf Waywatchers. Any comments/ideas or further discussions about whether they should get the HKB rule are welcome

Greetings,

Sambazorcopter

Just for clarification, the YMDC forum is for rules questions and debates. This being a proposed rule should go into the proposed rule section.

Yes, indeed!

My bad, my mouse must have slipped somewhere. My apologies.

Sorry, then I read you post I had to make this:

KB is pretty crazy nice as anyone who has seen an army of Bloodletters can attest.

As goes back to the issue of monsters in general: they kind of suck ATM. I don't know if they need to be weaker--not that there are a ton of wood elves prancing around.

Monsters are almost always multi-hundred point units. Sometimes they can be many hundreds. To have HKB you've basically got a gunline of cannons. Which is a bit much.

I think the core of the problem is more that there's no middle ground between Killing Blow and Heroic Killing Blow. You have Killing Blow and you're incredibly lethal against multi-wound troops, but then you're just like every other schlub when it comes to taking on monsters. But Heroic Killing Blow is so effective you can't hand it out to troops or they'll bring down any monster in a matter of seconds.

I wonder if Killing Blow shouldn't work against monsters, but in a reduced capacity, maybe inflicting two wounds on the roll of a six when used against a monster.

There's all kinds of middle ground, you just need to be creative. If they did D3 wounds or something, that's ideal. Because it will simply overkill rank-and-file infantry and not be OP. But really, I think it takes a big chunk out of Monsters and Ogres and such and at the moment they don't need any more anti-love.

That said, I know nothing about Wood Elves as it's one of the only books I don't have.

I agree with the D3 wounds idea, I run alot of Waywatchers with my Wood Elves (around 16 in x2 units of 8) and my opponents hate it, especially the local Bretonnia Players. I do agree that Waywatchers fluff wise are supposed to be amazing shots but when it comes to monsters I could not see a single arrow just killing a Hellpit abomination in one shot.

However the D3 Idea would be great with Waywatchers, easily explainable that they are targetting weak points such as eyes, vital spots, ect. Or if not a D3, maybe that for every 6 rolled against monsters to wound auto wounds with no save allowed, basically keep the Waywatchers with killing blow, but theirs is special when it comes to monsters that it just auto wounds with a -3 or -4 to armor to represent the skilled shot.

when wounding a monster with 6 or more toughness, were else can you hit that would cause a wound if not the weak points?

Probably nowhere else, I was just using that as an example to explain the rule for the D3 or the auto wound monsters on a 6 Idea

I agree with Heroic-killing blow idea.

rockerbikie wrote:I agree with Heroic-killing blow idea.

I dont only for the reason that I would find it really hard to believe a single Waywatcher taking down a giant, Orc Giant Spider, Hellpit Abomination ect. in a single shot. This isn't silly LOTR stuff were a single elf fires an arrow into a giant elephants skull and kills it instantly (despite the fact that it had been shot at with how many arrows? ). Being a Wood Elf player and being a huge fan of these bad boys here are a few things that would make them better and IMO worth their 24pts. per model cost:

**First of all in regards to all options listed below they get their old school skirmish rule back where they can appear ANYWHERE on the battlefield as long as its 1 inch away from the opponent or friendly model. This is what made Waywatchers so nasty and the fact they FAQ'd it is one of the many things that ticked me off when they went over the Wood Elf Book.**

-Option #1: Option to take x2 shots each with the standard -1 their BS, now I know this may seem somewhat OP to some but if you think about it, its not to bad. Waywatchers need 2's to hit most of the time with BS 5 along with being able to march and shoot with no penalty. However the fact is you still need to roll 6's to get killing blow which in my experience does not happen as much as I would like. With x2 shots each, along with the return of their old skirmishing rules would make them worth 24pts. per model, would even be willing to boost them up to 25 points a model.

-Option #2: As mentioned above they dont have heroic killing blow but instead of a rule that I like to call "Hawkeye". The Idea behind the rule is this: "Waywatchers being the most deadly archers in Athel Loren and the Warhammer Fantasy World are experts at targeting eyes, throats and other vital parts of their targets, even monstrous creatures and infantry. If they roll a 6+ to wound roll a D3 for ever wound and add to the target with no armor saves allowed." With this option it would make waywatchers effective at killing almost anything, not just small elite units of heavy infantry. Now they have a chance to be effective against monstrous creatures and mounstrous infantry (aka Ogre armies). Being a D3 you still have a good chance of rolling only 1 wound and with this differential and needing 6's it would IMO fit the 24pts. Per model category.

Two options that I feel would help make the Waywatchers more flexible while not becomming overpowered.

Honestly, I think waywatchers are pretty great as they are now, except for the fact that they are worth nowhere near 24 a piece, 15-16 I could see, but not 24.
Why change the rules of a perfectly good unit that just needs a cost reduction to bring it in line with the new edition?

Krellnus wrote:Honestly, I think waywatchers are pretty great as they are now, except for the fact that they are worth nowhere near 24 a piece, 15-16 I could see, but not 24.
Why change the rules of a perfectly good unit that just needs a cost reduction to bring it in line with the new edition?

Because its fun? Agree with the point cost reduction whole heartedly!

gmaleron wrote:

Krellnus wrote:Honestly, I think waywatchers are pretty great as they are now, except for the fact that they are worth nowhere near 24 a piece, 15-16 I could see, but not 24.
Why change the rules of a perfectly good unit that just needs a cost reduction to bring it in line with the new edition?

Because its fun? Agree with the point cost reduction whole heartedly!

Yeah it is fun...

As expert archers, I'm leaning towards an improved Killing Blow - like KB on 5+. You might think it's overpowered, but remember: they're 24 points each, they're Rare, and they have max squad size of 10; very different to having say Bloodletters with KB 5+.

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:As expert archers, I'm leaning towards an improved Killing Blow - like KB on 5+. You might think it's overpowered, but remember: they're 24 points each, they're Rare, and they have max squad size of 10; very different to having say Bloodletters with KB 5+.

And no armour, don't forget the lack of armour.
Honestly while I think that KB on a 5+ would be an improvememnt I still don't think it would quite make them worth their current 24 points a model. Still at least we are getting ideas rolling in this thread, shame GW won't take any of it on board because they are never wrong...

Krellnus said:
shame GW won't take any of it on board because they are never wrong...

Everything they do is great as long as they're the only supplier lol

But what you're saying is true, the first step to getting down some truly revolutionary ideas (particularly for weaker armies/units) is to get the ball rolling, understand what needs to be changed in regards to associated points cost.

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:

Krellnus said:
shame GW won't take any of it on board because they are never wrong...

Everything they do is great as long as they're the only supplier lol

But what you're saying is true, the first step to getting down some truly revolutionary ideas (particularly for weaker armies/units) is to get the ball rolling, understand what needs to be changed in regards to associated points cost.

It's not that "they are never wrong", it's that internet ruleswriters aren't usually looking at 'The Big Picture'. It's a shame, sure because you do occasionally have some gems in the rough but the majority aren't so fantastic.

As for the Waywatchers...
Best fit solution I can think of, for the moment, is allowing them to have Piercing Bodkins, Hagbane, Starfire, and Dragontooth Arrows as part of their unit rules. Allow them to declare which to use each turn, and you get a nastier unit.

^ I like that idea, kind of like Shadow Dances of Loec. What happens for Stand and Shoot? Do you get to choose each time they shoot (in your shooting phase and in their movement phase) or choose one arrow type each turn which you use until your next turn? I know you said that each turn, but just to be sure.

Waywatchers are armored troop killers NOT monster killers.

Killing Blow is absolute murder against expensive infantry and cavelry like Warriors and any type of knights.


HKB is extremely rare and shouldn't be handed out to anything more then a single model. Its fine where it is on Brett Lords and Necrosphinx, and Tomb Guard that have had the KB buff cast on them.


Brett Lords and Necrosphinx actually look like they could decapitate a Dragon or HPA is a single strike. Piddly little WE arrows don't.

HKB seems a little overpowered. D3 wounds seems a better compromise, but may I ask their points cost?

With the next Army Book nuking most of the magic items from it, I think applying the magical arrows to the Waywatchers is a really good idea, however I don't see them working like wardancers. So being able to buy a type of magical arrows as an upgrade would be nice.

I want them to have Glade Guard longbows, I don't see why the Asrai give their best bows to their least trained units . . .

TBH, I also would like waywatchers to either become specials or if you give your highborn the waywatcher kindred, they become specials. The fluff is rife with waywatchers, who are explained as guarding the forest in the winter when the wood spirits rest, so I don't feel like they should be rares IMHO.

Alot of good ideas in here.

Speaking of nuking the magic items, I really hope that we don't lose the Arcane Bodkins + Bow of Loren Combo or Wand of Wych Elm.

@Tethlis the Slayer, waywatchers are 24 points each, so they are pretty pricey for what they do, considering no armour and all that.

Now that you have mentioned it, Arcane Bodkins and Bow of Loren is most certaintly going the way of the Dodo

Kanluwen wrote:

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:

Krellnus said:
shame GW won't take any of it on board because they are never wrong...

Everything they do is great as long as they're the only supplier lol

But what you're saying is true, the first step to getting down some truly revolutionary ideas (particularly for weaker armies/units) is to get the ball rolling, understand what needs to be changed in regards to associated points cost.

It's not that "they are never wrong", it's that GW ruleswriters aren't usually looking at 'The Big Picture'. It's a shame, sure because you do occasionally have some gems in the rough but the majority aren't so fantastic.

As for the Waywatchers...
Best fit solution I can think of, for the moment, is allowing them to have Piercing Bodkins, Hagbane, Starfire, and Dragontooth Arrows as part of their unit rules. Allow them to declare which to use each turn, and you get a nastier unit.

fixed.

And that is an intriguing idea. I have also liked the idea of upping their strength, lowering their points cost, giving them AP or giving them multishot.

KB should cut through Regen and Armor saves against monsters, but still inflict only one wound. It should take HKB to drop the thing utterly. In this way, a unit of Executioners could drop a HPA with only major casualties, save for when they realize it is Too Horrible to Die.

Don't Waywatchers only get Killing Blow at close range?

If that's so, I'd say we just up that to all the time.

Otherwise, a point-drop would be great. I mean, elves are elite. Sure. But 24pts for a T3 model with no saves and 1 wound? There's some diminishing returns stuff, right here.

Well, the primary problem isn't with the unit. Its the army book. it sucks.

WE need an update. so it isn't just waywatchers, but everyone.

Range HKB is big no, maybe on a Waywatcher character as an upgrade, but a whole unit is just crazy.
What Waywatchers need is a price reduction. That and probably make all WE bows S4 at short range.