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I'm still very much a newbie player, and I run a mech-heavy IG list right now, but I've been wanting to experiment with a 'powerblob' army; big hordes of guardsmen with a powerfist or two, a medic for FNP and commisars/priests etc tagging along. I've heard good things about this kind of army being fun to play.
After reading through my friends GK codex, it seems to me that the a lot of the stuff in their codex, especially the cleansing flame power coupled with vindicare assassins being able to selectively take out the commisars/priests/powerfist characters, would make make an IG powerblob completely unworkable against most GK builds.
Am I reading it right or is there something I'm missing? Anyone successfully played against GKs with an IG powerblob army?

If they can get to grips with the blob, purifers will probably put a serious hurting on them.

That is the trick, though. Those blobs really put a hurting on transports!

Short answer is yes if you plan on building an assault focused blob army, no if its a stand-and-shoot type.

Purifiers and vindicare are common but honestly GK shooting is somewhat weak against hordes, we really need to assault in order to do enough damage. The only exception are psyker henchmen dropping large blasts and incinerators, but those are very rare for GK players to field.

Against non-purifier GK, you are free to assault and probably do quite well, because most GK units will struggle to kill 30+ models that are stubborn and packing 12-16 pw weapon attacks.

But purifiers are common, so if you want to build a TAC list that can fight all varieties of GK, I would focus on shooting as much as possible, with some counter assault support in the form of pws on your sergeants and commissars.

If you pack as many heavy and special weapons as you can fit into the list, and bring enough bodies to the field, you can do extremely well against both shooty and assault GK. Your heavy weapons outrange most of ours by double and you will have piles of plasma/melta/flamer shots when the enemy does get too close.

The 1 thing I recommend is to keep each blob focused on 1 task, rather than mixing weapons randomly. For example, plasmaguns and lascannons/autocannons mix together great, because you can stand and unleash a torrent of heavy fire. Flamers and melta mix poorly with heavy weapons because you have to be so close to use them that you will probably have to move.

Keep flamer and melta weapons separate from your heavies, so they can move and shoot when needed, for example by putting them on command and platoon command squads. Make sure every blob has plenty of pw weapons, a commissar and a few melta bombs thrown in, so you can withstand assault when it happens. Other than that, your firepower will do the trick to most units.

I actually played a game last night against a buddy who plays guard and used a powerblob unit just like the one you describe. His unit contained Col Strakken, one commisar w/ fist, a priest, one astropath, a medic, and two guardsmen. I sent Kaldor Draigo after them and managed to slowly whittle away everyone until only Strakken was left. Strakken pretty much held Draigo in combat the whole game until I finally finished him off via a NFW instant death poke. The only reason Strakken lived for so long is because of his high WS. Power blob armies are not so bad if you back them up with artillery and heavy meq. GK has a hard time dealing with AV14. Glancing a chimera or executioner via a psyfledread autocannon on a 6 is pretty rare. Also GK really doesn't use melta which would be perfect for those AV14 vehicles. I did manage yesterday to finally blow up his heavy armor by shunting my interceptors behind his tanks and using krak grenades to blow them up but out of a ten man squad only 4 survived to make the shunt and get close enough to drop the nades.

Psst... powerblobs (2 or more combined infantry squads led by a Commissar w/ PW) can't take PFs. Nor Medics. I know it's a pity....

What kills Powerblobs? : Templates, large Blasts and things that cause wounds to every model in the unit like Flechette Dischargers and that's right; Cleansing Flame. So you have to stay away from mellee and shoot them. Remember that powerblobs must be supported by HWTs and artillery or tanks. Hope i helped.

power blobs have a good chance against GK, purifiers are going to road roughly 1/5th of the unit every combat round, but they should get ripped up by the power weapons.

As long as you have the firepower to shoot them up with first rank second rank, it shouldn't be too bad.
But if a unit gets caught in the open from all that stormbolter fire it will be whittled down, the game would be rather unforgiving to IG.

Agreed Grundz purfiers will kill some guys but the pw will probably kill 3-4 purifiers if charging and guardsmen maybe one more and since purfiers are common in 5-6 man sqauds you should win.

Grundz wrote:power blobs have a good chance against GK, purifiers are going to road roughly 1/5th of the unit every combat round, but they should get ripped up by the power weapons.

As long as you have the firepower to shoot them up with first rank second rank, it shouldn't be too bad.
But if a unit gets caught in the open from all that stormbolter fire it will be whittled down, the game would be rather unforgiving to IG.

You need to consider that cleansing flame can snipe your PW toting sergeants and/or the commissar.

Then the purifiers actual attacks go before you do.

Grey Templar wrote:You need to consider that cleansing flame can snipe your PW toting sergeants and/or the commissar.

Then the purifiers actual attacks go before you do.

I am not too familiar with clensing flame, but how does it snipe your Sgt's and Commissar? Even with that happening, an IG player should have some back up. I know my lists normally have a Lord Commissar nearby giving them Ld10, and if someone fields Yarrick, good luck breaking a 30 or more man Power Blob Squad that is Stubborn Ld10 even after the Commissar and Sgt's get sniped.

I am not saying I don't fear it, anything that can snipe a commissar causes concern, but how many points is that squad, compared to the standard 31 man Blob w/4xPW coming in at 225 points?

Every round of assault, things in combat take a wound on 4+.
Before anything else happens.
So your sgt might take a wound and fail, since it hits models, not x hits on the unit. A model that ordinarily could not be singled out by shooting could die to cleansing flame.

Wouldn't the proper answer be to just not get into assault with purifiers (the only unit in the GK codex that actually puts a hurt on blob squads) and to just shoot them instead?

Fearspect has the correct answer. Paladins and possibly a full henchmen squad of crusaders/DCA could also put the hurt on, but at least in those cases you get the chance to hit back.

For those wondering, cleansing flame will, on average, take out about 1/3 of your blob (or really any IG unit) a turn. That's before the initiative 6 pw attacks hit. A squad of 5 purifiers will kill roughly 14 guardsmen (out of 30) before you get to swing back, and that number could include your commissar or sergeants. Keep in mind that doesn't include shooting, so more likely you are losing about 20 models from both shooting and assault.

The key here is simple, don't let purifiers assault, blow their transport to pieces, make them walk and then eat ungodly amounts of firepower.

unityvybe wrote: Glancing a chimera or executioner via a psyfledread autocannon on a 6 is pretty rare. Also GK really doesn't use melta which would be perfect for those AV14 vehicles.

Gonna have to interject on this one. A Psyfledread shot is str 8. Meaning 4's to glance on front armor, not 6. They do not use autocannons. They use assault cannons.

And if the GK is fielding a LR or a SR, you better bet it has a melta on it

Psycannons also will rip IG vehicles up.

Str7 rending will even give LRBTs problems

I have faced purifiers as IG and have no solution other than kill the rhinos asap to pop out the passengers, then drop colossi shells on them for the AP3 and ignore cover.

Infantry cannot stop them because of cleansing flames. Immobilization/stunning helps a bit, but they can still shoot the psycannons from inside due to Fortitude. So, the rhinos must be popped.

For me, the critical choice is not the troops choice. I think the strongest build is a squad of hydras (2-3) to pop the SRGs, vendettas (2) to pop the rhinos (need pens, glancing is largely useless due to Fortitude), colossi (2-3) to kill the disembarked in cover, and executioners (2 with sponsons or 3 without) to kill terminators or purifiers in the open. Chenkov in a chimera can keep sending conscripts to hold off the tide for just one turn. Commissars just get assassinated, so not as effective, but you can put an LC in Chenkov's chimera (or vice versa), because he is IC. Incidentally, this may be a decent list against most comers. I have not had the chance to thoroughly test it, because I switched to playing Necrons, but will revisit eventually.

One of may main opponents has played a purifier list frequently, and I've got to say they haven't been a huge problem for me. By the time they get upgrades, they're quite expensive per guy, and therefore quite vulnerable to the blob's lasguns, especially if they've been hit with a template weapon first. As for the rest of the Grey Knight Codex, most entries are much more dangerous in the shooting phase than the assault phase. They've got great attacks, but relatively few of them, so the blobs just take it on lasguns and keep rolling.

Biophysical wrote:One of may main opponents has played a purifier list frequently, and I've got to say they haven't been a huge problem for me. By the time they get upgrades, they're quite expensive per guy, and therefore quite vulnerable to the blob's lasguns, especially if they've been hit with a template weapon first. As for the rest of the Grey Knight Codex, most entries are much more dangerous in the shooting phase than the assault phase. They've got great attacks, but relatively few of them, so the blobs just take it on lasguns and keep rolling.

If he is trying to outshoot you, he is doing it wrong. He needs to get stuck in and hide in assault from your firepower. Once the bubblewrap is gone, the tanks die to hits on the back armor.

As to the lasguns vs assault, you will get one chance to shoot him. Then he assaults and hides. If he thinks he will kill you in one round, he will assault multiple units, so it takes two assault phases. Then he can iterate.

My point is that Purifiers aren't tough enough per point to deal with Guard firepower without a whole bunch of LOS blocking cover. By the time they hit the lines, they might take out the blobs (might not), but the tanks should be able to mop up the remainder.

Biophysical wrote:My point is that Purifiers aren't tough enough per point to deal with Guard firepower without a whole bunch of LOS blocking cover. By the time they hit the lines, they might take out the blobs (might not), but the tanks should be able to mop up the remainder.

Most IG tanks have Av10 in close combat. This means the basic MEQ squad with S4 will drop several glancing hits. Glancing is really all they need, because 2/3 of the results means you cannot shoot, 1/6 means you just lost your turret gun (roughly halfing your effectiveness), and 1/6 means you are immobilized, so next turn all the attacks hit automatically. Add to that a powerfist for pens. Add to that squadron rules which will upgrade immobilized results to wrecked results and make you distribute the glance/pens across the squad. Add to that the GK power to boost strength, doubling the chance for a damage table roll.

Besides, he will not have just the purifiers in the list. He will be flying the SRGs around with TL meltas busting your tanks with side shots at half range using POTMS while getting the cover saves. Add to that terminators and librarians, and the vindicare busting tanks with a rifle. GK are a real pain in the neck for IG.

Necrontyr40k wrote:
Most IG tanks have Av10 in close combat. This means the basic MEQ squad with S4 will drop several glancing hits. Glancing is really all they need, because 2/3 of the results means you cannot shoot, 1/6 means you just lost your turret gun (roughly halfing your effectiveness), and 1/6 means you are immobilized, so next turn all the attacks hit automatically. Add to that a powerfist for pens. Add to that squadron rules which will upgrade immobilized results to wrecked results and make you distribute the glance/pens across the squad. Add to that the GK power to boost strength, doubling the chance for a damage table roll.

Besides, he will not have just the purifiers in the list. He will be flying the SRGs around with TL meltas busting your tanks with side shots at half range using POTMS while getting the cover saves. Add to that terminators and librarians, and the vindicare busting tanks with a rifle. GK are a real pain in the neck for IG.

You are right, all is lost, guard automatically lose to grey knights it isnt even worth playing.

Or you can stop looking at things in a fishbowl, A guard player will be bubblewrapping his tanks and moving to maximize his firing time and firepower. Possibly even placing tanks at far flanks and out of the way areas to force the 24" or closer GK player to divert resources to deal with them.
Yes, you will next point out that GK can counter this to some effect by ineffectively firing autocannons or flying a stormraven or using a vidicare, the point of these threads is to help new players not have a slapfight about how your new army is better than everything.

/GK player
//Also IG player

lol@Necrontyr40k

Purifiers and Stormravens, huh? I thought we were in the tactics forum...

What sort of list where you planning on taking exactly? It's important to note that normal Infantry squads can't take power fists, or medics.

If you're going for an all infantry list. I'd think about using Rough riders and Stormtroopers.

Deep-striking Stormtroopers with melta guns are going to be gold for popping tanks which might pose a problem to the low range of melta. Their ap3 guns along with the melta can also help take out high priority meq targets.

A small sized Rough Rider squad can do the same thing, and adding in a 5 pt melta bomb can turn them into a cheap tank hunting unit should they survive their first encounter.

Depending on what you want to do with your list, it'd be good to have a few cheap PCS with x4 flamers. For 50pts, they can or toast a purifier squad after it chews through one of your blobs.

I wouldn't worry too much about the vindicare, they are fairly easy to shoot to death, and you should be able to take it out before it does too much harm to your list. If you're really worried, throw in another commissar in your blobs to create redundancy.

If you want a really fun(non-competitive) choice, grab a ratling squad for a good old fashion sniper contest with the vindicare.

Grundz wrote:
You are right, all is lost, guard automatically lose to grey knights it isnt even worth playing.

Or you can stop looking at things in a fishbowl, A guard player will be bubblewrapping his tanks and moving to maximize his firing time and firepower. Possibly even placing tanks at far flanks and out of the way areas to force the 24" or closer GK player to divert resources to deal with them.
Yes, you will next point out that GK can counter this to some effect by ineffectively firing autocannons or flying a stormraven or using a vidicare, the point of these threads is to help new players not have a slapfight about how your new army is better than everything.

I outlined the problems. If you have real solutions, I am all ears. By the way, in case it is not obvious from my signature, I play IG, not GK.

Fearspect wrote:lol@Necrontyr40k

Purifiers and Stormravens, huh? I thought we were in the tactics forum...

One of the GK lists that I faced had two large purifier squads in rhinos, a vindicare, and two SRGs. I think one was empty or carried a special, while the other carried a large squad of hammer-wielding maniacs joined by a IC (I think a librarian). What about that list makes you lol?

Necrontyr40k wrote:...What about that list makes you lol?

Nearly everything you listed.

Everything costs too much and lacks ability to participate in the shooting game. Stormravens are a joke and make me happy to see because each one on the table is one less rifleman. Nearly no vehicles whatsoever. Purifiers get rocked by actual combat units, or simply by being forced to walk across the table. The inefficiencies are through the roof. Shall I go on?

No one except you is scared of a list like that.

Fearspect wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:...What about that list makes you lol?

Nearly everything you listed.

Everything costs too much and lacks ability to participate in the shooting game. Stormravens are a joke and make me happy to see because each one on the table is one less rifleman. Nearly no vehicles whatsoever. Purifiers get rocked by actual combat units, or simply by being forced to walk across the table. The inefficiencies are through the roof. Shall I go on?

No one except you is scared of a list like that.

Are you talking from the perspective of IG or another army? As IG playing a fluffy slogger list, what do I have to fear of a rifleman? Even if he takes his spiffy ammo, that just means S8, which can only glance my LRs, and I may get cover anyway. Vendettas would reserve, so they will get the first shot on the dread. My artillery fires indirect, so the dread would not see them anyway. If I take hydras, I stick them in area cover for the save, because they do not need to pivot (love that firing arc).

By comparison, SRGs are assault vehicles that bring terminators to my tanks and my entire parking lot soon becomes a junkyard. On the way in, and after they are emptied, the SRGs put side melta shots at half range. Even if they use POTMS for it, it is TL, so they still hit most of the time.

What am I missing here?

By the way the lol list won a lot of games against many different armies at my FLGS.

GKs are a *nightmare* for power-blob IG. Vindicare snipes your Commisar out of the squad (unless the list is tailored it will only ever include one Commisar), Purifers then charge in, cause the IG player to lose by 15 or so, and then sweeping advances them into nothingness. 200+ points down the drain.

The only real way is to not run a power blob army, or at least run 2-3 small units (20 or so) backed up by a horde of firepower. Whittle the GKs down/out of their transports, and then jump on them when they're numbers are reduced.

L. Wrex

Fearspect wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:...What about that list makes you lol?

Nearly everything you listed.

Everything costs too much and lacks ability to participate in the shooting game. Stormravens are a joke and make me happy to see because each one on the table is one less rifleman. Nearly no vehicles whatsoever. Purifiers get rocked by actual combat units, or simply by being forced to walk across the table. The inefficiencies are through the roof. Shall I go on?

No one except you is scared of a list like that.

Stormravens are Fast Attack and don't compete with Riflemen dreds. they are hardly a Joke, a couple of Stormravens with a Librarian
turbo-boosting are insanely difficult to shoot down(3+ cover)

Purifiers, due to I6, will kill most dedicated CC units before they attack and can deal with hordes with Cleansing Flame.

all PAGK units can take Rhinos or Razorbacks so they don't have any less vehicles then other Marine lists.

advice for the blob guard army, just take 1 commissar lord with camo cloak and that 50 man squad has stealth, tell the vindicare to eat **** with a 3+ cover save. Or just shoot him, usually it only takes 6 wounds to kill him when he is in cover.

How often is a unit that large going to be eligible for a 4+ cover save for that camo-cloak to help?