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(I did the search thing, and didn't see anything about GK transports, so here we go)

Okay, so lets talk about Grey Knight units. Mainly because i keep seeing GK players taking Rhinos and boggles my mind.

So, first off, I'm not talking about henchmen, or anything weird like that. Just regular Strike squads, Purifiers, and might as well include Purgation squads as well. Regular GK that can take transports. I'm also talking about competitive play. If you use rhinos because it fits your fluff or you just FREAKING LOVE RHINOS, then just go away. Also, though i'm not sur eit matters, lets focus on 2k points.

So, first off, lets look at the squads and settle a few things:

No one is going to take 10 man squads of GK in a competitive scene. There is really no reason for it unless you are making a foot list, or have completely maxed out your FOC, which is pretty hard/impossible to do. Basically, i'm only going to talk about 5 man squads in min/maxed mech lists.

The only upgrades worth taking are Psycannons, and MAYBE a hammer, and MAYBE BUT PRETTY MUCH NEVER a halberd. Psybolt ammo and falcions may as well not exist. I don't even know what a warding staff IS. The hammers usually depend on the points, and halberds are for those times when you have 4 points left and 2 lucky purifiers get to have a shiny spear.

Therefore, the only way we'll run the squads are:

5 strikes, psycannon, hammer/or not.
5 purifiers, 2 psycannons, hammer/or not.
5 purgation-ers(?), 2-4 psycannons (they cost a lot...), probably not a hammer.

So, now that we have that, we need a transport. The 2 options are razorbacks and rhinos.

Rhinos can hold 10 guys, sort of fix themselves, and have 2 firing points for 40 points.
Razorbacks can hold 6 guys, and have a gun on top for 45 points. Other than that, they are the same in pretty much every way.

You can give the razorback some different guns, but the only one that is really worthwhile is the las/plas, which costs a lot (80 points), and GK don't really need what with psycannons and stuff, so we'll stick with the heavy bolter. Psybolt Ammo is 5 points and gives us S6. We'll take that. No rhino updrages and no other razorback upgrades are generally worthwhile.

So, 40 point rhino VS 50 point Psybolt Razorback, with the 3 squads above.

Now what i keep seeing on this site is people writing lists with squads similar to the ones above riding in rhinos, shooting out the top hatch. Lets see what the qualities of this might be:

The troops are safe.
You can fire 2 psycannons (purifiers and Purgation-ites(?)) or 1 psycannon and a storm bolter (poor strikes) out of the hatch.
You can move 6, shoot. Do it again next turn.
Or you can move 12, jump out and shoot. Pretty standard marine stuff.
You lose all/most of your storm bolter shots.
All the rhino has is a storm bolter.

Now, this is by no means bad, but what i propose is this:

Give the squad a razorback, start them inside of it, move into psycannon range of something (24"), disembark (ideally into cover but whatever), and shoot things.

About this:

Your troops are not safe.
You can move 6, get the guys out, shoot the guys, and shoot the tank.
Or you can move 12 and get the guys out and shoot, probably popping smoke on the RB.
The RB can give the guys cover if it needs to.
The guys can get back into the ride if they really need protection.
The troops can shoot their psycannons on heavy the same turn the transport moves (since they are not in it...)
S6 Heavy bolters are good.
You get to use your storm bolters.

So, the main thing here is, you get to shoot your storm bolters, and for 10 points you get a real fire-support tank, not just a transport you stay in until it dies.

Stormbolters are awesome. Sure, a few of themsort of stink, but when you have an armie's worth (anywhere from 18 to 24 depending on what your troops are (im assuming you take 6 troops at 2k, and they are all the same), meaning 36-48 shots a turn), it's not really something you want to waste. 36 shots is 4 dead marines a turn, or a small crowd of weaker infantry with worse armour / no cover save. 48 storm bolters is more like 5 marines, which is a whole squad.

Heavy bolter razorbacks are awesome, too! 3 twin linked S6 shots a turn is pretty decent. It can wound most infantry on 2s, pen rhinos, glance chimera front armor, and make DE skimmers cry. Lets say you have at least 6 in your army (6 troops are pretty much required). They'll get 2-3 pens and 2-3 glances on AV11 and 5 pens and 2-3 glances on AV10 (they sort of stink VS AV13 with 2-3 glances, but thats what psycannons, psyflmen, and side armor are for). Or they'll kill like 4-5 marines. So, a whole squad.

Now, these numbers might seem a bit low for 6 whole units, but you need to remember that these are basically costing us 60 points, since we're going to take a transport anyway, and its this or a rhino (which will hurt no tanks, and kill like 1 marine a turn with 6 stormbolter). So, 4-5 dead marines a turn for 60 points. Or pretty decent damage / suppression against transports (you'll kill like 1, and mess up/halt the others with average dice) for 60 points. Add this to the anti-infantry you gain from having your storm bolters available, and i'd say it is definitely worth it.

Another thing to think about is how many units you are putting in your enemy's face. If you take rhinos, you are basically just giving him 6 tanks (assuming you are taking full troops) to shoot at. If you take razorbacks and foot slog the guys after turn 1, you are giving him 12 targets: 6 units of marines, and 6 tanks.

If you take rhinos, they pretty much have to pop the rhinos, then kill the guys. Things like pinning also come in to play here (for strikes and purgation-aters(?)), which is annoying. Basically your troops just have a hard shell around them. Shooting the rhino hurts the troops.

If you take razorbacks, they have to choose, which is generally good. Shooting the razorback won't hurt the troops much if at all (i guess it could explode on them...).

The only downside to this (having your guys outside of transports) is that some armies have weapons that are really good against marines (DE come to mind), but you just have to rely on the fact that even your storm bolters will shoot down their tanks, and out shoot them before they kill your guys. Hiding behind your tanks for cover is not a bad idea until you've silenced venoms and whatnot, and hiding inside of them is an option as well, especially if your sitting on an objective late game. However, most armies can't handle 30+ marines and their 6 tanks before being shot to death at 24-36", so i'm not sure it's a huge issue.

Some armies also have lots of missiles, which can be annoying to marines on foot as well as tanks, but all you really need to do is get within 24" and focus fire on the longfangs or w/e with your troops / razorbacks. They will die pretty easy once you get into 24" (so, the first or second turn, since missiles are rarely moving away from you).

So, i hope it's clear that i think the razorback is the better choice, but i'd be interested to hear why other people think rhinos are worthwhile in any GK list, since you are basically losing out on a 10 point gun of awesome, just so you can shoot out of the top hatch, even if you are shooting psycannons.

So, tell me, is there or a reason I would want to take rhinos? Or are these lists from people that just don't have that many heavy bolter turrets (i'm in that camp, lol, with only 6 to my name...need like 3-5 more to spam these things properly, haha)?

In my mind, GK should be a horde of 40 to 50 walking marines with psycannons and razorbacks, backed by dreads and whatever else. But, hey, I could be wrong. I love learning things.

So...GK Rhino VS Heavy Psy-Bolter Razorbacks: Go

"In my mind, GK should be a horde of 40 to 50 walking marines with psycannons and razorbacks, backed by dreads and whatever else. But, hey, I could be wrong. I love learning things. "

In my experiense this would be unvice. Quite a lott of armies can put so mutch damadge into your marines from afar that they should not be in the open. Those GK marines are not cheap!

Of course a decent enough counter argument is that they would shoot open the transport anyway, so why bother having them there in the first place. Usualy to make them faster as you only have a 24" range and also to force him to open up the transports first.

I'm a rhino-man myself, especially for units with 2 psycannons. With single psycannons or none at all, I wouldn't mind the psyback. That's the best vehicle for purgations with 4 incinerators.

I'll be honest with you. Most of this stuff has been discussed in the past couple days. While it never hurts to go over it again, some of what you have said is kinda wrong.

jcd386 wrote:(I did the search thing, and didn't see anything about GK transports, so here we go)

No one is going to take 10 man squads of GK in a competitive scene. There is really no reason for it unless you are making a foot list, or have completely maxed out your FOC, which is pretty hard/impossible to do. Basically, i'm only going to talk about 5 man squads in min/maxed mech lists.

People take 10 man squads with a Grand Master so they can get the benefit of his strategy and then combat squad down. Ideally if I could, I would run my squads in 6's.

jcd386 wrote:The only upgrades worth taking are Psycannons, and MAYBE a hammer, and MAYBE BUT PRETTY MUCH NEVER a halberd. Psybolt ammo and falcions may as well not exist. I don't even know what a warding staff IS. The hammers usually depend on the points, and halberds are for those times when you have 4 points left and 2 lucky purifiers get to have a shiny spear.

Many many MANY competitive lists have purifiers with halberds. This is pretty much as far as I could read.

Niiai wrote:"In my mind, GK should be a horde of 40 to 50 walking marines with psycannons and razorbacks, backed by dreads and whatever else. But, hey, I could be wrong. I love learning things. "

In my experiense this would be unvice. Quite a lott of armies can put so mutch damadge into your marines from afar that they should not be in the open. Those GK marines are not cheap!

Of course a decent enough counter argument is that they would shoot open the transport anyway, so why bother having them there in the first place. Usualy to make them faster as you only have a 24" range and also to force him to open up the transports first.

24" range is, in general, almost the whole board. What i mean by that is, after turn one your troops should be at least 7.99" inches into the playing field (move 6", get out 1.99"). This means your range is pretty much anything that is not on the back 4" of the board. And, since most tournament games are objectives, the enemy only has to come closer to you. Your razorbacks have 36", which should be the whole board. Dreads should never have range issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jy2 wrote:I'm a rhino-man myself, especially for units with 2 psycannons. With single psycannons or none at all, I wouldn't mind the psyback. That's the best vehicle for purgations with 4 incinerators.

I guess i'd ask why you like the rhino, if you have tried taking the razorbacks instead of them? Also, how long is it usually before the rhinos are dead and your guys are out in the open anyway? I agree that if you were to take a rhino, it'd only be on units with 2 psycannons, but i still feel that the razorback is superior in most situations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jamora wrote:People take 10 man squads with a Grand Master so they can get the benefit of his strategy and then combat squad down. Ideally if I could, I would run my squads in 6's.

Well, just because people do things doesn't mean it's competitive. And secondly, there are always exceptions to the rule. Most good Mech GK lists do not actually use the grand strategy, as it costs a lot for what it does (usually scout is the best choice, as you already have a lot of scoring units). Yes, some lists do benifit from taking 10 mans and giving them scoring, or scouting (the other two upgrades are really just meh. They can be good sometimes but i'd think it is not generally worth paying for), but I guess i'm not talking about those lists, since they are not the norm. And, even in those lists, i would still say a razorback is better than a rhino.

My main point in talking about squad size and load out is that i didn't want arguments from people saying they like rhinos because they hold ten guys (and, if you do buy 10 guys, i think we can agree that you'd usually combat squad), or saying something about how much they like to use their incinerators from inside the rhinos. That sort of thing.

I'd be interested in why you think you need 6 men vs 5, as that seems like paying extra for just one body that doesn't do that much except make the squad live a tiny bit longer.

Jamora wrote: Many many MANY competitive lists have purifiers with halberds. This is pretty much as far as I could read.

Yeah, i guess this point is debatable, even though it doesn't really have much to do with rhinos/razorbacks. 5 man Purifiers with 2 psycannons and 2 halberds and a hammer are fairly common. However, I and others would argue that the halberds are not worth it on a unit that is only going to get 4-6 attacks with them, and only has WS4, unless you have extra points left over. if you get charged as purifiers, those 4 attacks will kill, what, 1, maybe 2 marines? 1 Wyche? I think that in general, purifiers are going to either win a combat or lose it, reguardless of whether or not they have the halberds. If you were taking large groups of purifiers meant for CC then i could see taking some, but in a 5 man it doesn't seem worthwhile to me unless you have the points left over. For 2 points it's not bad, but if you buy them on every squad they start to add up, and you may not always have the points. If you do, fine, but don't ever pick halberds over another upgrade, as you'll kill 1-2 marines, and then win or lose combat anyway.

Lets look at it like this. You have 5 purifiers with 2 halberds, 2 psycannons, and a hammer, which i think you'd agree is a fairly competitive way to run them. They charge 5 Grey hunters with a wolf guard with a PF. Lets assume you shot and either killed them down to 5, or missed everything just so we have equal numbers of troops.

Purifiers charge, get hammer hand off.
Grey Hunters get off counter charge.
2 Halberds at S5 kill 2 Grey hunters.
The Grey Hunters hit back with 3*3=9 attacks, and kill 1 purifier (they should cause .75 unsaved wounds, so we'll give it to them. Or, not, and say they do nothing).
The psycannon purifiers hit at the same time, but do nothing.
The fist and hammer go, each killing 1 of the enemy.

So, the GK win by 1-2.

Lets see what it looks like with no halberds.


Purifiers charge, get hammer hand off.
Grey Hunters get off counter charge.
Grey hunters attack with 3*5=15 attacks, killing 1 marine (1.25 unsave wounds on average, so it's a pretty solid 1 dead marine)
Purifiers hit at the same time, killing 2 with their swords, and none with the psycannon guys (they have a .5 chance to kill one...so they will half the time, i guess. but they are also where i start taking my wounds from once i get into a combat i'm not sure i'dd get out of, so it's w/e)
Fist and hammer go, killing 1 each.

So, the GK win by 1-2 again.

I could do this all day, and it rarely matters if you halberds or not. Unless it is super close, you are going to win or lose a combat whether you have halberds or not. 10 wyches? you lose no matter what (cleansing flame and whatnot aside). assault terminators? Yeah you lose. Regular marines? Yeah you win by just having power weapons. Admittedly there may be a few high I5 units that will completely wipe a GK squad before they get to hit, but 2 halberds usually can't kill those units, and they should be shot to death anyway.

Halberds are great on terminators, because they are free. They are so-so on everything else, because they don't do that much for you most of the time, and shouldn't be taken unless you have the points. And, i still wounden't take halberds until i had given everything hammers, since having S8-10 is considerably more useful (namely for killing tanks if you need to) than hitting at I6 with 2 guys.

Anyway, those are the ideas and opinions that i have based my original comments on.

Here is the reason why I prefer rhinos over razors. One of the most important things in the game usually neglected by GK players is the Movement phase. Usually, players are too focused on their shooting and assault. Yeah, GK's can excel in both in the Shooting phase and Assault phases. But the game isn't just about killing. Strategically, 2/3 of the game is about objectives. While you can always win by tabling your opponent or shooting all his troops to death, in reality, if you're playing against an opponent of equal skill with a balanced, all-comer's list, you need to make a play for the objectives. Here is where razors falter.

With rhinos, it's all very simple. Move from point A to point B and if you can, shoot out of it. You're constantly moving until you reach where you need to get to. Cannot reach your opponent? Then move 12" and shoot next turn. Meanwhile, you are getting ever closer to your objectives. With razors, you're just too tempted to remain still or move only 6" so that you can fire their turret guns. There's no real reason to get to where you need to go when on Turn 1, you can already start shooting at the enemy from your own deployment zone. So the tendency for razor-spam players is to take advantage of their longer range and play as a gunline. Well, in objectives games, this really puts you out of place to try to reach objectives in the later rounds.

Yes, you can always move the razors 12" and then drop off your knights to start shooting. In theory, it's great as you're getting almost double the firepower. But in reality, it's not a very common practice. 5-man units are fragile. More often than not when you're playing against a decent player with a decent list, you really don't want to disembark your guys unless you absolutely have to. And why should you when you can fire 4 or 8 S7 rending shots out of the top hatch of your rhino as opposed to 3 twin-linked S6 shots? And with Fortitude, you're going to keep on firing until your opponent wrecks your rhino unless he has some form of psychic defense.

You mentioned about target priority with disembarked units from their razorbacks. To me, the priority is obvious. In an objectives-based game, I just fire at your troop infantry (BTW, thanks for making it easier to kill them by disembarking them). In annihilation, just fire at whichever is the easier kill.

Of course, there really isn't a better choice between the 2. I'm not saying you should always take 1 over the other. It is usually a matter of preference. I also like the psyback and think it is a wonderful transport. It's just that in my list with mostly purifiers, I think the rhino is a better fit for them. I just prefer the ability to fire 2 psycannons out of a protective bunker.

BTW, there's one more reason why I prefer the rhino and this is more of a logistical one. It's just that rhino builds play a little faster. No need to decide what you want to do - whether to just shoot or disembark and fire both - and no need to move all these models that you don't need to (I'm talking about disembarked squads). While in casual games, this wouldn't really matter, but in a tournament setting, it could help you to get more turns in.

This really depends on whats inside. The Grey Knight players I play against Avariel and yermom use Rhinos for purifiers and Psybacks for Strike Squads or Henchmen. Purifiers have 2 psycannons to shoot out of the Rhino fire points. Strike squads only have one psy cannon and the henchmen often have nothing so the psyback is better.

I think, as stated above, that rhino's make the most sense for purifier's. They want to shoot there cannons from within the tank. Getting out a 5 man squad, they are going to die pretty quick unless they are in assault. If your list takes strike squads, which many do, then a razorback is great for them. Plant the strike squad and razor on an objective and deter DS and fire away.

Does having better troops make combat squads less effective?

Combat squads is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, yet most gk players throw it away as tripe/garbage.

If you combat squad you can't get a rhino/razor for each half. At least I don't think you can. You would be stuck with half in and half out.

jcd38 wrote:The only upgrades worth taking are Psycannons, and MAYBE a hammer, and MAYBE BUT PRETTY MUCH NEVER a halberd. Psybolt ammo and falcions may as well not exist. I don't even know what a warding staff IS. The hammers usually depend on the points, and halberds are for those times when you have 4 points left and 2 lucky purifiers get to have a shiny spear.

I pretty much stopped reading after this. I6 is huge. I6 on a force weapon is even bigger. It allows Purifiers to effectively fight *anything* in the game and have somewhat decent odds of winning. Fighting horde? Use Cleansing Flame. Fighting MEQ? Use Hammerhand *and* strike at I6. Fighting MCs? Use force weapons *and* strike at I6. The fact that they get 2A each and get halberds cheaper than every other unit in the 'dex is just icing on the cake.

But hey, I run my Purifiers w/ 2 x incinerators in Rhinos. I don't use Razorbacks as I need them to get to the enemy ASAP, and paying extra points for guns on the transport gives me a dilemma that I could do without (should I move 12" to get the units where I want them quicker, or should I move 6" and shoot the guns I paid extra points for?). There's no right or wrong answer, some people prefer the extra shots, some people prefer the extra points. I know that giving my three Purifier Sqds Rhinos as opposed to RBs saved me enough points to squeeze in two additional Death Cult Assassins, which will do FAR more damage that 9 S6 shots would.

L. Wrex

I prefer Rhinos over Razorbacks purely for transport capacity. My GK want to bridge that 24" gap as fast as possible.

My current Ard Boyz list is here.

HQ
Castellan Crowe 150 pts

Troops
10 Purifiers (4 Psycannons, 5 Halberds, Daemonhammer, Psybolts) 315 pts
Rhino 40 pts
10 Purifiers (4 Psycannons, 5 Halberds, Daemonhammer) 295 pts
Rhino 40 pts
10 Purifiers (2 incinerators, 2 Pairs of Fachions, 6 halberds, Psybolts) 282 pts

Elite
Venerable Dreadnought (2 autocannons, psybolts) 195 pts
Venerable Dreadnought (2 autocannons, psybolts) 195 pts

Fast attack
10 Interceptors (4 halberds, psybolts) 300pts

Heavy Support
Landraider Crusader (Searchlight, Multi-melta) 266 pts
Landraider Crusader (Searchlight, Multi-melta) 266 pts
Dreadnought (Searchlight, lascannon, missile launcher) 151 pts

2495 pts


I can either keep my guys in 10 man squads for KP missions(mission 1 especially) or I can split and have a stationary unit and a mobile unit(both with 2 psycannons)

the Halberds also allow them to go before other models. this is really good. while 3+ armor is good, not having to take saves in the first place is even better.


5 Purifiers with Halberds against 5 GHs.

assume the purifiers charged, have Hammerhand up and the GHs got counter attack off.

the purifiers have 15 attacks(2 base, +1 for charge) and go first.

7.5 hits on average.

7.5 hits needing 3s to wound. thats 5 wounds.


all the GHs are dead before they swing.

if the purifiers didn't have halberds the GHs would have gone at the same time.

15 attacks, 7.5 hits. about 4 wounds and 1 dead purifier.


the halberds keep all the purifiers alive.

a measly 10 points in upgrades kept 26 points of purifier alive.


the Halberd isn't so much an offensive upgrade as a defensive one. it keeps your guys alive when otherwise they would take losses.

@Grey Templar:

Are you sure you're posting in the right thread?

I was illustrating how halberds and rhinos are indeed viable in competitive settings.

Ok, my bad. That's what I get for not reading the post in its entirety. Sorry.

s'all good