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you think it's fair to give one unit of State Troops for the Empire Heavy Armour, Weapon Skill 4 and Leadership 8 for 2 points? it bothers me that all veterans supposedly can only become Sergents or Greatswords and the only people who wear heavy armour are Warrior Priests.


alternate topic nobody was interested in before...
I want to give an Exalted Champion of Chaos 2 Swords, Ogrenix and Gigantese, peired Swords that are magically light for whoever uses them but seemingly unstoppable to whatever gets hit, still need to be buff to even get them off the ground though. Ogrenix can use the Ogre Blade rules for +2 Strength but how about a Stength 10, 5" template for Gigantese as the wielder whirls it around, it's so massive that you need to use an Initiative test to dodge (allies only hit on 6+) the thing and if the wielder gets wounded he takes a toughness test or it flies out of his hand like a bouncing cannon ball in a random direction, even if the scatter dice rolls a hit but not if the artillery dice rolls a misfire. 100 points + 110 for Exalted Hero?

I say Strength 10 because I have an Empire Hero who just uses a Greatsword and a Potion of Strength for S9. so a Chaos Hero using them properly would have a far greater impact.

Your first one seems a lot better, but the cost is maybe a tad lowish?

Little late for number crunching these but:

Daemons have an Awesome Str. buff that goes to 10, for 75. BUT it's only useable by Bloodthirsters, a 450pt unit that already has 6str. So it's +4 Str for 75 pts. You're looking for a +5 str (Exhalted). I could see it costing >75 at least. No way is it going to cost only half of 100 though. I mean to ignore armor saves on a WoC sword is 50 points. At +5 str you're not only ignoring armor saves, you're massively increased chance of wounding. So I say you're undercosted.

Potion of Str (+3) lasts ONE turn for 20. So you're really misleading there.

Not sure about the Giantese one, it's really weird. I do know that if everyone around takes an I test, so do your teammates. Maybe give them +1 cuz they know it's coming, but still. You're making it a cannon ball at point blank range. But the str is way too high and the cost is way too low. Also a 5" template? How about just units in base contact?

well, I thought that 7 points per guy was a lot when compared to the normal 5 points. that's 10 Veterans for every 14 regulars. if it was 3 points and I add in a shield it would be 10 Vets for 18 RnF and they certainly wouldn't have the right survivability/damage output to make that worth it, especially compared to Greatswords.

for the potion of strength thing, I forgot to mention that it was supposed to represent someone who couldn't swing it for long so he just let go of it, no one could take it anyway, he could leave it out in the rain and no thief could budge it. becoming a Chaos Warrior gives him the power to spin this horrible weapon while Ogrenix (which would cost 40 points as per the BRB common magical items) fills in the gaps of Gigantese' rotation. it's meant to be so large that you can't just use normal fighing skills and the template is going to cover his allies standing to his left and right, so the whole of his own units 1st rank. but without causing Multiple Wounds (I suppose the cannonball accident won't cause D6 wounds or anything) its not utterly destructive. the way i see it, the template covers 13 of my guys and 8 enemies, so I lose 2 guys each time (if I need a 6 to hit them) and my enemy loses about 3-4 guys with I3, plus the cannonball has a more likely chance of going through my own ranks anyway, likely to kill at least one guy in the front rank even if it goes forwards-ish.

plus being Strength 10 doesn't mean anything to an enemy who would have been wounded on a 2+ and not given an armour save because of Ogrenix, the smaller giant blade. so that applies to most enemies.

Lotet wrote:you think it's fair to give one unit of State Troops for the Empire Heavy Armour, Weapon Skill 4 and Leadership 8 for 2 points? it bothers me that all veterans supposedly can only become Sergents or Greatswords and the only people who wear heavy armour are Warrior Priests.

Why does it bother you that veterans become greatswords? The prove their worth on the field, they are then invited into the ranks of the elite empire infantry.

because I don't believe it's a good idea to train your veterans in a new weapon. if a unit of halberdiers comes out of a long campaign then I wouldn't take thier halberds and shields (yes, I give my Halberdiers shields) then train them to fight differently to how they've been drilled for the last 4 years.

though I can imagine that alot of soldiers think Greatswords are heroes and would jump at the opportunity to join thier ranks I don't think everyone would become a Greatsword/Sergent but can't improve thier technique for thier halberd in any meaningful way.

also, now that I look at the Forgeworld Handgunners, how does the Heavy Armour, BS4 and Ld8 for 3 points sound? I ran the numbers and they would be better 'point for point' at long range but less effective for short range. but the numbers are so close that the only advantage they'd have is the potential to have more guns within range but risk not covering a wider area to target enemies.

Way back in the summer of chaos, empire had an alternate list where the armies of Ulric has a guard armed with horsemen hammers I think.
While greatswords are the most common, they aren't the only elite of the empire.

-Matt

sebster wrote:

Lotet wrote:you think it's fair to give one unit of State Troops for the Empire Heavy Armour, Weapon Skill 4 and Leadership 8 for 2 points? it bothers me that all veterans supposedly can only become Sergents or Greatswords and the only people who wear heavy armour are Warrior Priests.

Why does it bother you that veterans become greatswords? The prove their worth on the field, they are then invited into the ranks of the elite empire infantry.

Not just the "elite Empire infantry", but an Elector Count's bodyguard.

well, where does all the heavy armour go? I guess most people get light armour because it's easy to mass produce but Plate Mail is meant to be this rare and valuable armour so I would want a unit that can deck themselves out in heavy armour because they haven't displayed enough skill to catch the eye of an Elector Count but still enough to impress the General they've been fighting under for years.

I want something like a unit of Big 'Uns, i.e. one per army at, the Empire only have 1 Elite Infantry unit with no options and only one role.

Lotet wrote:well, where does all the heavy armour go? I guess most people get light armour because it's easy to mass produce but Plate Mail is meant to be this rare and valuable armour so I would want a unit that can deck themselves out in heavy armour because they haven't displayed enough skill to catch the eye of an Elector Count but still enough to impress the General they've been fighting under for years.

I want something like a unit of Big 'Uns, i.e. one per army at, the Empire only have 1 Elite Infantry unit with no options and only one role.

Empire gets that. Take an empire general, and 1 state troop unit per army can pack a magic banner.

Empire doesn't half ass anything. They mass produce, or they go big.
It's a hand gun, or it's a great cannon. We don't do light cannons.
It's light armor, or it's full plate. We don't tie up our smiths making mid-grade armor.

I think that's what it really comes down to. Impress the general all you want, he just doesn't have access to tons of heavy armor.
Now, if you wanted to upgrade a Core infantry unit to special, and give them full plate, I'd go for that.
0-1* elite infantry; crossbowmen, handgunners, halbardiers, spearmen or swordsmen, with armor upgraded to full plate.

I'd even go for 0-1 per empire general.



-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Lotet wrote:well, where does all the heavy armour go? I guess most people get light armour because it's easy to mass produce but Plate Mail is meant to be this rare and valuable armour so I would want a unit that can deck themselves out in heavy armour because they haven't displayed enough skill to catch the eye of an Elector Count but still enough to impress the General they've been fighting under for years.

I want something like a unit of Big 'Uns, i.e. one per army at, the Empire only have 1 Elite Infantry unit with no options and only one role.

Empire gets that. Take an empire general, and 1 state troop unit per army can pack a magic banner.

Empire doesn't half ass anything. They mass produce, or they go big.
It's a hand gun, or it's a great cannon. We don't do light cannons.
It's light armor, or it's full plate. We don't tie up our smiths making mid-grade armor.

I think that's what it really comes down to. Impress the general all you want, he just doesn't have access to tons of heavy armor.

No exceptions?

EDIT: also, Plate Mail is made by Dwarfs

Lotet wrote:because I don't believe it's a good idea to train your veterans in a new weapon. if a unit of halberdiers comes out of a long campaign then I wouldn't take thier halberds and shields (yes, I give my Halberdiers shields) then train them to fight differently to how they've been drilled for the last 4 years.

But it's how the Empire operates. I'm not so sure it is a bad idea (it may take a long time to master a weapon, but mastery is largely for show on the chaos of the battlefield, what matters is being good enough and having lots of friends who are also good enough, and disciplined, dependable men). Now, even if we accept that it is a bad idea, it isn't as though examples of less efficient methods of war can't be found in history, either for cultural reasons, or just because they didn't realise it was a bad idea.

Then there's also the issue that the formations of the Empire are loosely based on the landsknecht of Europe, where impressive performances did lead to promotion and retraining with new weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Not just the "elite Empire infantry", but an Elector Count's bodyguard.

Umm, yeah. That's the same thing. I don't get your point.

sebster wrote:

Lotet wrote:because I don't believe it's a good idea to train your veterans in a new weapon. if a unit of halberdiers comes out of a long campaign then I wouldn't take thier halberds and shields (yes, I give my Halberdiers shields) then train them to fight differently to how they've been drilled for the last 4 years.

But it's how the Empire operates. I'm not so sure it is a bad idea (it may take a long time to master a weapon, but mastery is largely for show on the chaos of the battlefield, what matters is being good enough and having lots of friends who are also good enough, and disciplined, dependable men). Now, even if we accept that it is a bad idea, it isn't as though examples of less efficient methods of war can't be found in history, either for cultural reasons, or just because they didn't realise it was a bad idea.

Then there's also the issue that the formations of the Empire are loosely based on the landsknecht of Europe, where impressive performances did lead to promotion and retraining with new weapons.

It's partly why I like the Empire. They're relatively speaking a 'generic human civilization', but not too generic so as to being boring.

Kanluwen wrote:Not just the "elite Empire infantry", but an Elector Count's bodyguard.

Umm, yeah. That's the same thing. I don't get your point.

Was just being more specific. I think there's some Greatsword regiments that aren't bodyguards, but I don't know them off the top of my head aside from Carroburg.

anyway, the Empire's social, economic and military policies aside, do you feel that there's no discussion value for a 2 point upgrade and a pair of swords that appear incredibly mighty or do you think I've analyse them enough myself, leaving you with nothing to add?

they fine?

Lotet wrote:anyway, the Empire's social, economic and military policies aside, do you feel that there's no discussion value for a 2 point upgrade and a pair of swords that appear incredibly mighty or do you think I've analyse them enough myself, leaving you with nothing to add?

they fine?

Following the rules for swordsmen and greatswords, it looks like when Empire troops get more skilful they get WS and IN, they don't get leadership. Then when improve again they still don't get leadership, they get stubborn.

So I'd probably drop the leadership 8, and give them +1 WS, +1 IN and heavy armour, and consider it reasonable to charge an extra 2 points per model. Though I'd be worried that a horde of halberdiers taken like that could prove to be utterly deadly...

don't Skaven get that as a standard troop choice? with more movement and initiative for the same points?

and I always thought that Empire Swordsmen had WS4 and I4 because of thier fighting style, not because of combat experience, after all, it wouldn't make sense for them to lose 1 initiative if they get promoted to Greatsword if it wasn't the fighting style and weapon choice that caused it. also Greatswords do have 1 more Leadership than the others.

sebster wrote:

Lotet wrote:anyway, the Empire's social, economic and military policies aside, do you feel that there's no discussion value for a 2 point upgrade and a pair of swords that appear incredibly mighty or do you think I've analyse them enough myself, leaving you with nothing to add?

they fine?

Following the rules for swordsmen and greatswords, it looks like when Empire troops get more skilful they get WS and IN, they don't get leadership. Then when improve again they still don't get leadership, they get stubborn.

So I'd probably drop the leadership 8, and give them +1 WS, +1 IN and heavy armour, and consider it reasonable to charge an extra 2 points per model. Though I'd be worried that a horde of halberdiers taken like that could prove to be utterly deadly...

Swordsmen are Init4, but nobody else is.
Just give them heavy armor, and WS.
I'd love to have WS5 Init 5 swordsmen in heavy armor with shield for 8 points; that's elite elf country, at a much cheaper price.

-Matt

I specified WS4 to leave Swordsmen and Greatswords out of the loop so they don't get too skilled, WS5 is for Captains. after all, I think Heavy Armour would be detrimental to the Swordmans fighting style, more so than Spearmen and Halbediers anyway. though, that's not to say I wouldn't leave the option for them to get better armour and higher Leadership anyway.