Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

so, me and my brother have an ongoing argument on who attacked first: the imperialum or the tau. I say that during the expansion the tau contacted the emperors worlds and the imperialum are defending them. He says that i attacked patroling ships and so I attacked first. what are your opinions

If you don't count the Explorator Team that first mapped the planet of T'au then it was the Tau who were the initial agressor.

they were gradually taking over fringe and renagade worlds that had no loyalty to the Imperium. Worlds which didn't join were dealt with by force.


Then a Tau ship arrived over a planet that was part of the Imperium. the ship was shot down on sight as a Xeno ship.

then the Tau sent a retaliatory fleet to the planet which was also beaten back.

then the Daemocles Gulf Crusade was launched to deal with this minor alien threat. the Crusade cut deep into the heart of the Tau empire, only stopping when the forces were recalled due to the more pressing threat of the Tyranids.

the Crusade was pitifully small by imperial standards and actually managed to almost take a Sept world(which was almost Virus bombed)

I count the Explorator Team, they killed their fair share of Tau, so Imperium attacked first

Grey Templar wrote:If you don't count the Explorator Team that first mapped the planet of T'au then it was the Tau who were the initial agressor.
they were gradually taking over fringe and renagade worlds that had no loyalty to the Imperium. Worlds which didn't join were dealt with by force.

You mean, they did what the Imperium would have done as well?

Annexing independent worlds can hardly be counted as an act of aggression against the Imperium.

Of course the Imperium would see this differently, but that's why PoV is important. Also, as far as I remember the Tau were already slated for destruction before they even developed electricity, it's just that the Imperial forces never got around to do it in time. The red tape of Imperial bureaucracy saved their blue hides. For now.

Actually it wasn't red tape, it was a timly Warp Storm which wrecked the colony ships.

The Imperium. Though the Tau may have sent a ship to an imperium world to try and conquer it, the Imperium sent the attack force with the purpose of destroying the Tau empire rather than trying to annex a random world.
To put it in other words, imagine if Poland started annexing everyone around them by means of diplomatic or aggressive nature, and eventually tried to take a mile wide stretch of Russia, and in return Russia slaughtered the Platoon and invaded all of Poland, killing everyone they saw.

According to the latest Tau codex, the first hostilities between the Imperium and Tau Empire occurred when the Devlan PDF had its system defense ships open fire on a Tau merchant vessel when it tried to run a checkpoint. The Devlan Planetary Governor was able to contact the Imperial Navy, which chased down and destroyed the fleeing Tau vessel.

Grey Templar wrote:If you don't count the Explorator Team that first mapped the planet of T'au then it was the Tau who were the initial agressor.

they were gradually taking over fringe and renagade worlds that had no loyalty to the Imperium. Worlds which didn't join were dealt with by force.


Then a Tau ship arrived over a planet that was part of the Imperium. the ship was shot down on sight as a Xeno ship.

then the Tau sent a retaliatory fleet to the planet which was also beaten back.

then the Daemocles Gulf Crusade was launched to deal with this minor alien threat. the Crusade cut deep into the heart of the Tau empire, only stopping when the forces were recalled due to the more pressing threat of the Tyranids[u].

the Crusade was pitifully small by imperial standards and actually managed to almost take a Sept world(which was almost Virus bombed)

Didn't the Tau wiped out more forces on Taros than were even sent to the Crusade? I think people overplay what would of happened if the Crusade went on... Most likely, the Crusaders would of been blockaded with their already spent fleet and the full Tau military would of started showing up.

Jollydevil wrote:The Imperium. Though the Tau may have sent a ship to an imperium world to try and conquer it, the Imperium sent the attack force with the purpose of destroying the Tau empire rather than trying to annex a random world.
To put it in other words, imagine if Poland started annexing everyone around them by means of diplomatic or aggressive nature, and eventually tried to take a mile wide stretch of Russia, and in return Russia slaughtered the Platoon and invaded all of Poland, killing everyone they saw.

If you replace Poland with Germany, it's the entire story of the Eastern Front!

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:If you don't count the Explorator Team that first mapped the planet of T'au then it was the Tau who were the initial agressor.

they were gradually taking over fringe and renagade worlds that had no loyalty to the Imperium. Worlds which didn't join were dealt with by force.


Then a Tau ship arrived over a planet that was part of the Imperium. the ship was shot down on sight as a Xeno ship.

then the Tau sent a retaliatory fleet to the planet which was also beaten back.

then the Daemocles Gulf Crusade was launched to deal with this minor alien threat. the Crusade cut deep into the heart of the Tau empire, only stopping when the forces were recalled due to the more pressing threat of the Tyranids[u].

the Crusade was pitifully small by imperial standards and actually managed to almost take a Sept world(which was almost Virus bombed)

Didn't the Tau wiped out more forces on Taros than were even sent to the Crusade? I think people overplay what would of happened if the Crusade went on... Most likely, the Crusaders would of been blockaded with their already spent fleet and the full Tau military would of started showing up.

Just putting this out there, the only reason the Imperium gets beaten back is that they try to capture the planets intact. There is a point where you cut your loses and make a new asteroid belt...

I think the Tau as we know it attacked first, because the first contact with the Tau and them at cavemen level tech. Didn't they attack the exploration fleet when it came back?

Happygrunt wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:The Imperium. Though the Tau may have sent a ship to an imperium world to try and conquer it, the Imperium sent the attack force with the purpose of destroying the Tau empire rather than trying to annex a random world.
To put it in other words, imagine if Poland started annexing everyone around them by means of diplomatic or aggressive nature, and eventually tried to take a mile wide stretch of Russia, and in return Russia slaughtered the Platoon and invaded all of Poland, killing everyone they saw.

If you replace Poland with Germany, it's the entire story of the Eastern Front!

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:If you don't count the Explorator Team that first mapped the planet of T'au then it was the Tau who were the initial agressor.

they were gradually taking over fringe and renagade worlds that had no loyalty to the Imperium. Worlds which didn't join were dealt with by force.


Then a Tau ship arrived over a planet that was part of the Imperium. the ship was shot down on sight as a Xeno ship.

then the Tau sent a retaliatory fleet to the planet which was also beaten back.

then the Daemocles Gulf Crusade was launched to deal with this minor alien threat. the Crusade cut deep into the heart of the Tau empire, only stopping when the forces were recalled due to the more pressing threat of the Tyranids[u].

the Crusade was pitifully small by imperial standards and actually managed to almost take a Sept world(which was almost Virus bombed)

Didn't the Tau wiped out more forces on Taros than were even sent to the Crusade? I think people overplay what would of happened if the Crusade went on... Most likely, the Crusaders would of been blockaded with their already spent fleet and the full Tau military would of started showing up.

Just putting this out there, the only reason the Imperium gets beaten back is that they try to capture the planets intact. There is a point where you cut your loses and make a new asteroid belt...

I think the Tau as we know it attacked first, because the first contact with the Tau and them at cavemen level tech. Didn't they attack the exploration fleet when it came back?

Both Imperial and Tau commanders think this way. It is the reason the IoM won't opt for exterminatus against the Tau in conflicts and why if the Tau ever develop a weapon for planet killing, they would never use it against the IoM. Both races are civilized enough to know that a world held in either hands is better than most other options including total destruction.

Edit: While it was considered, it was shot down by Astartes who view the Tau as honorable foes.

Those filthy Xenos can't possibly defeat the Grand Imperial Army. Burn one of the planets, that will get them in line.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And those Astartes should have never been seen again. That is against the Imperial Creed and would weaken moral in the Guard. But I digress.

Happygrunt wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:The Imperium. Though the Tau may have sent a ship to an imperium world to try and conquer it, the Imperium sent the attack force with the purpose of destroying the Tau empire rather than trying to annex a random world.
To put it in other words, imagine if Poland started annexing everyone around them by means of diplomatic or aggressive nature, and eventually tried to take a mile wide stretch of Russia, and in return Russia slaughtered the Platoon and invaded all of Poland, killing everyone they saw.

If you replace Poland with Germany, it's the entire story of the Eastern Front!

...
I specifically thought about that instance, but for some reason i thought, no, that never happened...
:l

Happygrunt wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:If you don't count the Explorator Team that first mapped the planet of T'au then it was the Tau who were the initial agressor.

they were gradually taking over fringe and renagade worlds that had no loyalty to the Imperium. Worlds which didn't join were dealt with by force.


Then a Tau ship arrived over a planet that was part of the Imperium. the ship was shot down on sight as a Xeno ship.

then the Tau sent a retaliatory fleet to the planet which was also beaten back.

then the Daemocles Gulf Crusade was launched to deal with this minor alien threat. the Crusade cut deep into the heart of the Tau empire, only stopping when the forces were recalled due to the more pressing threat of the Tyranids[u].

the Crusade was pitifully small by imperial standards and actually managed to almost take a Sept world(which was almost Virus bombed)

Didn't the Tau wiped out more forces on Taros than were even sent to the Crusade? I think people overplay what would of happened if the Crusade went on... Most likely, the Crusaders would of been blockaded with their already spent fleet and the full Tau military would of started showing up.

Just putting this out there, the only reason the Imperium gets beaten back is that they try to capture the planets intact. There is a point where you cut your loses and make a new asteroid belt...

I think the Tau as we know it attacked first, because the first contact with the Tau and them at cavemen level tech. Didn't they attack the exploration fleet when it came back?

The Crusade had actually already decided to cut their losses, exterminatus the Planet, retreat to friendly space and await reinforcements. the Virus Bomb torps were already launched and Imperial troops were evacuating.

Then Kryptman messaged them, told them to self-destruct the torps, and come back to help against the Nids.

Tau plot armor at its finest

The IoM tried to wipe out the Tau during their caveman stage. They were saved by a warp storm.

Several thousand years later, after the storm had subsided, the Tau had developed FTL, formed a federation with a number of alien species, and contacted the outer edges of the Imperium. By means of trade and diplomacy they convinced a number of Imperial planets to leave the IoM and join the Tau.

Naturally this angered the Imperium, who sent the Damocles Crusade to wipe out the Tau. This failed from a combination of overconfidence and the need to withdraw to defend against an approaching Hive Fleet. The degree to which these two factors were important depends partly on whose fluff you read. Tau fluff naturally emphasises their capable defence. Imperial fluff emphasises the threat of the Hive Fleet. At any rate, an armistice was arranged and the IoM withdrew.

The Imperium left a number of IG regiments behind, who were absorbed into the Tau system as the Gue’vesa. This may have been a logistical error.

There have been a number of aggressions either way since then. There have also been occasions on which Tau and Imperial forces co-operated against worse threats.

Kilkrazy wrote:The IoM tried to wipe out the Tau during their caveman stage. They were saved by a warp storm.

As a standard procedure, it wasn't aimed at the Tau specifically. But the "just in time warp storm" should hint on something unnatural going on there.

Kilkrazy wrote:Several thousand years later, after the storm had subsided, the Tau had developed FTL, formed a federation with a number of alien species, and contacted the outer edges of the Imperium. By means of trade and diplomacy they convinced a number of Imperial planets to leave the IoM and join the Tau.

"means of trade and diplomacy" sounds nice...
To leave is inaceptable and thus not free of violence. No empire thats worth its guns allows secession.

Kilkrazy wrote:Naturally this angered the Imperium, who sent the Damocles Crusade to wipe out the Tau. This failed from a combination of overconfidence and the need to withdraw to defend against an approaching Hive Fleet. The degree to which these two factors were important depends partly on whose fluff you read. Tau fluff naturally emphasises their capable defence. Imperial fluff emphasises the threat of the Hive Fleet. At any rate, an armistice was arranged and the IoM withdrew.

Depends on the age of the fluff, sure. Who wrote it is unimportant, as fluff including both species hasn't seen the attention of those who shall not be named. ( yet. and I prefer if it stays this way. )

Kilkrazy wrote:The Imperium left a number of IG regiments behind, who were absorbed into the Tau system as the Gue’vesa. This may have been a logistical error.

Not really. Its been left out in 4th ed, 5th ed and online. A course change maybe. GW moved on to "purify" the armies and allies are gone.

Kilkrazy wrote:There have been a number of aggressions either way since then. There have also been occasions on which Tau and Imperial forces co-operated against worse threats.

None of these agressions were started by the IoM. Its the Taus mistake they could benefit from the nids.
now they become food...

1hadhq wrote:As a standard procedure, it wasn't aimed at the Tau specifically.

So the IoM is the aggressor by default, then.

1hadhq wrote:But the "just in time warp storm" should hint on something unnatural going on there.

Possibly, yes. Weren't there some theories regarding the Eldar protecting the Tau or some such stuff?

Lynata wrote:So the IoM is the aggressor by default, then.

Oh no. This galaxy belongs to the Emperor. They were just cleaning the house...




The issue of the Tau is: their friend / foe recognition sucks.
Seems they survive into 6th ed if rumors are to belived. Grants the chance to attack chaos this time...
So would they know to shoot the spiky ones / don't shoot the other ones or will this end in tears?

The Tau, technically. The Imperium was simply eradicating an anonymous xenos race like they've done hundreds of times before. The faction known as the Tau, a conglomerate of several species following the Greater Good, attempted subversion of Imperial Worlds first.

iproxtaco wrote:The Tau, technically. The Imperium was simply eradicating an anonymous xenos race like they've done hundreds of times before. The faction known as the Tau, a conglomerate of several species following the Greater Good, attempted subversion of Imperial Worlds first.

Let me rephrase the last sentence: The faction known as Tau, a conglomerate of several species following the Greater Good, was simply attempting to recruit some worlds of an anonymous xenos race to their cause like they've done dozens of times before.

1hadhq wrote:Oh no. This galaxy belongs to the Emperor. They were just cleaning the house...

Agreed.

I very much like the "no nonsense" policy the Imperial Creed dictates in this regard. It's so deliciously grimdark and a perfect facet of Imperial society, based on the darkest and deepest fears of mankind and thus very much rooted in reality.

OOC, I recognize the Imperium as being the aggressor - but that doesn't mean that the characters I play in various 40k RPGs won't think differently.

Lynata wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The Tau, technically. The Imperium was simply eradicating an anonymous xenos race like they've done hundreds of times before. The faction known as the Tau, a conglomerate of several species following the Greater Good, attempted subversion of Imperial Worlds first.

Let me rephrase the last sentence: The faction known as Tau, a conglomerate of several species following the Greater Good, was simply attempting to recruit some worlds of an anonymous xenos race to their cause like they've done dozens of times before.

Not quite. The Tau knew they were Imperial Worlds. They knew they couldn't conquer the Imperium through military means, so they decided on a plan of manipulation.

iproxtaco wrote:Not quite. The Tau knew they were Imperial Worlds. They knew they couldn't conquer the Imperium through military means, so they decided on a plan of manipulation.

Well, what does the Imperium mean to them? It's just another assembly of some alien race - similar how the Imperium views the Tau, really. It would take decades to gather reliable intelligence and analyze each other's culture for a sufficient analysis and to remove the "anonymous" tag.

As far as manipulation is concerned, I think that is their standard modus operandi. Military conquest is only an option if annexing the respective target world is imperative, yet the local population still resists any efforts to sway them.
Any war threatens to damage or destroy infrastructure and thus hamper colonization efforts - the very reason for why the Tau are interested in those worlds in the first place.

Just my two bolt shells on the matter.

Yes, but it wasn't a case of randomly encountering a bunch of planets and then absorbing them one by one, they knew that they were worlds ruled over by a more powerful faction that they wanted to control.
I didn't really mean anything manipulation, its basically a shorter way of saying, diplomacy, trade agreements, bribes and motive laden advice.

hammer_of_the_emperor wrote:so, me and my brother have an ongoing argument on who attacked first: the imperialum or the tau. I say that during the expansion the tau contacted the emperors worlds and the imperialum are defending them. He says that i attacked patroling ships and so I attacked first. what are your opinions

I am already seeing KillKrazy locking this....

Anyway....we attacked first in M36 when we decide to purge them and colonize. After 6000 years, when Tau made first contact they told them that Imperium is a lie, that we don't have million planets and that the Grater Good is actually more promising then the Emperor's sacrifice.

They attacked us first, but not with arms - but with words.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
Not quite. The Tau knew they were Imperial Worlds. They knew they couldn't conquer the Imperium through military means, so they decided on a plan of manipulation.

Actually, the Tau don't believe Humans that they have that many worlds...

Yeah, the Tau still actually belive the Daemocles Gulf Crusade was a true show of the Imperium's power.

They literally have NO idea just how vast the Imperium is, or the current threats which prevent the Imperium from squishing the Tau empire like the gnat it truly is.


If I was writing the next Tau codex, I would have a Tyranid fleet come and eat the Tau Empire, with survivors fleeing to the Farsight Enclaves.

Farsight then manages to defeat the Nid fleet at horrendous cost.

He then does massive reorganization of the Tau Empire by destroying the Etherial Caste, because the "Weakness and complacency of the so called 'Greater Good' only led to our home land's destruction"

Then the Tau, under Farsight, embark on a crusade of Conquest throughout the eastern fringe. the Tau have also managed to reverse engeneer the Tyranid Narvhal and, using a subjugated race as the psykers required to operate it, are able to properly travel around. although the process is still slower then the Imperium's Warp Drive, it is much faster, and longer ranged, then the previous Warp Skimming they did.

It was Han who shot first.

Cheesecat wrote:It was Han who shot first.

Word!

The Imperium

Didn't the Tau wiped out more forces on Taros than were even sent to the Crusade? I think people overplay what would of happened if the Crusade went on... Most likely, the Crusaders would of been blockaded with their already spent fleet and the full Tau military would of started showing up.

I see you are a Tau fan but that doesnt change the facts that, the imperium attacked first, and began to caught through the Tau empire untill they had to pull back due to the tyranids. Read it on lexicanum.
The first comment is very correct.

I wonder what is the OP's opinion now?

bob the heretic wrote:

Didn't the Tau wipe out more forces on Taros than were even sent to the Crusade? I think people overplay what would of happened if the Crusade went on... Most likely, the Crusaders would of been blockaded with their already spent fleet and the full Tau military would of started showing up.

I see you are a Tau fan but that doesnt change the facts that, the imperium attacked first, and began to caught through the Tau empire untill they had to pull back due to the tyranids. Read it on lexicanum.
The first comment is very correct.

As two large scale armies fighting with naval support, the IoM struck first blows in a surprise attack that cut straight into the Tau Empire. Everything before that was politics and fair game with very minor engagements.

The IoM then proceeded to take its first, but certainly not their last loss against the might of The Greater Good.