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I wonder how this range/LOS thing will affect rapid firing and double-tapping?

Kilkrazy wrote:I wonder how this range/LOS thing will affect rapid firing and double-tapping?

If at least one model in the target unit is within the rapid fire range then the firing model fires twice at the target unit. Casualties can come from anywhere in the unit.

So rapid firing is indeed more potent, as are assaults.

I know this sounds stupid but doesn't it seem like this running thing REALLY hurts the Tau. How are they supposed to stand up to say Blood Angel Jump Pack spam, assuming they can run.

Marching MEQ spam with assault weapons isn't much better, just more bodies and it takes an extra turn.

I wonder what 'neccesity is the mother of invention' tactics the combination of various new rules is going to open up?

Anything that speeds up infantry movement is bad for the Tau. And they suffer from the new morale rules.

However there seem to be some changes that are going to make things better.

For instance, markerlights are going to be very useful to deal with all the cover saves.

Suits are getting better because they can move and fire heavy weapons (this includes marker drones) and also because it looks like the JSJ manoeuvre will let them hide behind FW or Kroot screens.

The Railhead comes back with its pie plate against horde armies.

Vehicles generally lose a bit of their value because the SMF move will go, but they get a lot back with the new cover rule because they can be pimped out with sensor spines, disruptor pods and smart missiles and do a great job hiding in or behind cover.

Sorry --- misposted by accident
The new shooting rules make a big difference with pulse rifles. Get one enemy model inside 12 inches and you can hit anyone in the unit out to 30 inches with a double-tap.

That seems to be how the logic of the rules works, though I am sure there will be many arguments about that issue.

Kilkrazy wrote:The new shooting rules make a big difference with pulse rifles. Get one enemy model inside 12 inches and you can hit anyone in the unit out to 30 inches with a double-tap.

oic I'm glad you mentioned it because I would have argued for half an hour the other way over that one, shiny new rule book be damned!

Tacobake wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The new shooting rules make a big difference with pulse rifles. Get one enemy model inside 12 inches and you can hit anyone in the unit out to 30 inches with a double-tap.

oic I'm glad you mentioned it because I would have argued for half an hour the other way over that one, shiny new rule book be damned!

I think it will cause absolutely furious arguments because horde/assault players are going to hate it. People will be looking back to 4th and so on. As far as I can see it's an important part of saving Tau from the impact of much faster moving hordes who can remove their shot casualties from the rear ranks.

Just thinking... This whole Defensive weapons having S4 or less thing might be there to balanced faster assault armies against shooty ones. Faster assault armies moving their vehicles won't be able to put as much firepower downrange. Static defensive vehicles on the other hand, will.

I'm still not nuts about it. It'll destroy the feel vehicles currently have. Just my 2 cents, though.

I finally saw it, they should make Smoke do a +2 modifier on your cover save. So that pred in the forest gets a +2 the turn after it is shaken to help prevent shake-lock.

I'm not very good at reading but I think skimmers block line of sight again, which totally sucks ass for combined arms eldar and fish-of-fury type tactics.

has someone noticed taht now a plyer deploys his whole force, instead of having I-go U-Go when deployment? Or may i have misread?

You didn't misread. The winner sets up his whole army, then his opponent. The winner also gets first turn.

However, Reserves is in every mission. Combined with units with Infiltrate or Scout, this looks to be very interesting. You can even match up IC's to units in Reserve, but need to declare it.

Another thing I noticed with the Tau, is they have a piece of vehicle wargear that will make all shooting attacks over 12" count as Obscured. This will in effect give those tanks a 5+ cover save w/o even moving.

That would be the disruptor pod.

I think we will see highly pimped Tau vehicles. The disruptor pod, target lock, sensor spines and decoy launchers become obligatory. Once you've added all that crap you might as well put the SMS on as well. They will be expensive but capable and tough.

I am glad I built all my skimmer chassis with magnetic attachment points for changing all the wargear around.

Is there any timeframe on 5th ed rules coming out? Looking over this list it seems that IG tanks will be useless other then static firing bunkers. As I'm a big tankhead and with the cheaper release of apocalypse vehicles I'm in the process of making an armoured company list. Now with all the change to what qualifies as a defensive weapon, and the fact that even if you move you can't really fire these weapon it's changing the entire way I arm vehicles in 5th ed and I don't want to spend all this time and money on building an army on rules that are going to be entirely different in 5th ed.

It actually sounds like it's back to the good old 3rd ed rules of sponson being entirely useless and just buying tanks for their 1 main weapon. Heck with glancing table not having a chance to destroy tanks it seems that I could just move a few leman russes into position and lay way to enemy fire while walking sentinals through the thick of it as they seem to be all that can move and fire.

I'm still wondering why GW is trying to limit how much firing a vehicle may do. Vehicles needed to be a bit more survivable overall. I really never saw complaints at how much they were able to shoot.

yakface wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Page 15, under step 5 it states "Allocate Wounds. The owner of the target unit allocates the wounds on the unit's visible models." Emphasis mine, true this is one statement...but still?

Actually you're even more right than I thought. Page 22 in the section about determining if a unit is in cover or not they again state that models out of LOS cannot be hit, which directly contradicts the casualty removal rules on page 20.

I really hope they catch and correct that error because as it stands now it seems like you only count the models that are within LOS to determine if a unit is in cover or not but then casualties have to be pulled from all models, whether they are within LOS or not. This makes units that are mostly out of LOS very likely not to get a cover bonus which is pretty silly.

I hope they go with: Any unit that has a majority of its models out of LOS gets the cover save of the terrain they are out of LOS behind. If they are out of LOS behind another unit, they count as having a 4+ cover save.

But we shall see what they end up doing when the final rules come out. . .

Well, don't even attempt to dive into the 'true los' issues....there are too many. It states units block LOS to other units yet I can think of models that could draw LOS from their eyes over their comrades...while getting the obscured safety net from enemy shooting. This encourages guardsmen, for example, to model an entire unit laying prone, another kneeling and yet another standing on rocks so they can offer a nice Zulu firing line.


Please GW, save us from the dark days of kneeling, crawling Wraithlords and Greater Daemons.

Heh, now that I thought about it:

4th Edition Wraithlord Conversion/Construction



5th Edition Wraithlord Conversion/Construction

Hah, the dreaded Squat Wraithlord! Love it.

I briefly considered cutting the legs off my Sentinels and putting the main hulls on ork wartrack chassis, but then...the thought of walking a bunch of Sentinels up behind a wall of tanks, while still being able to shoot over them and gaining 4+ cover saves...I like!

I just hope that hardened top gets cheaper in the 2010 IG codex.

@AgeOfEgos lol by far the best Conversion on all of DakkaDakka maybe my guardsmen can kick it in the face now instead of the other way around

Therion wrote:

5th Ed signals the death of that army, especially with the random game length for every game. No "last turn objective grabs with Jetbikes" because it may not be the last turn, and then they can just go get wrecked in the subsequent phase.

If wounds allocation is any guidance 5th edition doesn't only signal the disappearance of Eldar from the 40K universe, it signals the end of 40K altogether. Let's be honest, the game has never made much sense, and the designers have never known the direction they want to drag the game, but a lot of the new rules are outright laughable. Third edition they wanted to simplify the game. Fourth edition they wanted to weaken assault, remove screening and make the game a mobile firefight. Fifth edition they want screening, bigger armies and more headlong infantry charging than in Warhammer Fantasy Battle, and no mobile firepower at all.

However, with the new "You don't have to remove models within 2 inch kill zone" version, those 6 Orks will still fight in HTH this round and deal out potential wounds.

Anything to make Orks GW's new money machine. You want to play Orks. You need to play Orks. You don't want elite Orks or trukk Orks either. You want tons and tons of Boyz. Boyz are goooood. Buy now, 20€ per 10. Buy 20 boxes and you get a pot of Gnarloc Green for free.

The last sentence was a joke. Of course you don't get anything for free.

Toreador wrote:I don't see anything that tactics and armament can't help me with

This is quite a statement. Please post your 1.85K Space Marine army list for 5th edition to the army lists forum. We're all curious to see how your all-rounder army deals with the running Orks. I can post the Ork list into your army list thread. By the way, 24" between the armies isn't exactly new.

You keep talking about how Orks are going to be the be all end all.

Never mind the fact that templates will wreak them now. IG with three pie plates a turn will do wonders, whirlwinds, etc.

At the same time while you talk about how bad AV14 will be, but it will be NOTHING like what the Falcon is now. Which can capture objectives, easily knock people off them, and deliver shock troops with no risk.

AV14 is only bad when in cover, and it can shoot well. But it doesn't score, and can be neutralized from shooting at long range with a glance, and if you come up and shoot it with a Melta it dies.

Do meltas get the extra d6 still?

Do meltas get the extra d6 still?

Yes. And with AP1 they can still destroy vehilces on a glance and get 3 out of 6 chance to destroy on a pen. Makes melta weaponry much better at killing tanks compared to other weaponry, in comparison to 4ed.

Skyth: Yes.

Please GW, save us from the dark days of kneeling, crawling Wraithlords and Greater Daemons.

Actually these rules totally bone those types of conversions for a shooty MC. A squaty wraithlord can still be shot unless it's LOS is completely blocked (due to Shoot the Big ones rule). If LOS to it is completely blocked, then it can't possibly draw LOS to shoot. Granted, would work ok for a close combat oriented MC (like say a baby fex conversion for cc) or walker (like say a mini killa kan).

However this type of conversion will be effective for non MC/vehicle models that shoot. Hell, even non-converted models will benefit: tyranid warriors, tau crsis suits/broadsides, necron destroyers, any normal models behind swarms (yep swarms still screen as far as I can tell); lootas behind grots. The list goes on.

If the rules blow this badly, I hope some of the indy tournaments will either stick with 4th or create a house ruleset for their events (with minor adjustments like S5 defensive weapons, different wounds allocation schemes, etc.) If Adepticon and a couple other indys adopted a common house ruleset, it could make them bigger draws than the GW events, especially for players pissed about pillbox tanks and turbo-boosting infantry.

On a separate note, it looks like magnet sales are about to go way up

that why i bought a mess of them a week ago can you say ebay baby

AgeOfEgos wrote:Well, don't even attempt to dive into the 'true los' issues....there are too many. It states units block LOS to other units yet I can think of models that could draw LOS from their eyes over their comrades...while getting the obscured safety net from enemy shooting. This encourages guardsmen, for example, to model an entire unit laying prone, another kneeling and yet another standing on rocks so they can offer a nice Zulu firing line.


Please GW, save us from the dark days of kneeling, crawling Wraithlords and Greater Daemons.

Maybe thats just me but the obscure rule states that you can't shoot through gaps in intervening units not above units. Of course it might be argued that since you cannot see the legs of that ork you can't shoot it in the head but hey, we all love discussions.

Does "obscured" give you the equivalent of a cover save?

An obscured vehicle gets an armor save depending on the cover that obscures it.

I used the term 'obscured' in reference to the rules governing targeting models behind other models. In one place the rules state that you can shoot at any model you can get LOS to provided you trace LOS to an arm, head, or torso. Next it states you cannot shoot through gaps in intervening units. Next it states that if you're high enough you can shoot over intervening units (provided LOS is completely free of other models).

That may mean that if I keep grots in BtB contact with the boyz behind them, the boyz can never be targeted (with the exception of orbital lance strike). Cool.

They are going to need to define all this very carefully.

Kilkrazy wrote:They are going to need to define all this very carefully.

They won't. Sales here we come!

Did I read this right; Dedicated Transports are a taxi service now and Armoured Company can never win any games? (unless its a draw then only if they are ahead in VPs)