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The only thing that has really ticked me off is the defensive weapons are str. 4 or less. Vehicles in 4th could actually move and fire their payloads effectively in 4th. Falcons being overpowered had nothing to do with being able to move and fire their weapons.

Also, moving turbo boosting to cover saves will work for about 3 minutes, till someone remembers soul seeker ammo.

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Wow, if these rumors are true then Zilla's did get boned as Ed said. I counted on massed Venom Cannon fire to destroy enemy vehicles and now that glancing hit's cannot destroy a vehicle like it use to kind of sucks.

It would seem to me that they want to turn the attention to the basic trooper, in which case I might jump ship and go for more warmachine/hordes.

I think other game companies out there should thank GW for helping boost their sales, cause I see more PP buys in the near future.

Just my 2 cents

Chappy P!

I'm sorry, I'm having a really hard time feeling sorry for you (or any Nidzilla player). GW wants to turn the attention to the basic trooper and you want to jump ship? Here *holds door open* have fun!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

First off to all people who will or did cry about the nerfing of Nidzilla: don't act like a...!

You bought the freakin army because you knew it was hardcore. Amazingly hardcore and top-tier. I want to see a Tyranid player with a maxed out TMC army before 4th edition? Hm? Where are the hand? Oh noes, no hands there! That's because they weren't hard as nails before! Come, you ain't stupid, if you buy an army just for the cheese of it, prepare to be hit by a big fat nerf stick with the new codex/edition.

Oh, you may replace Nidzilla with Falcon.

The other changes are looking good. All the screening sounds a strange, but workable.

I like the blast change, especially for my Dark Reapers fast shooting missle launcher exarch. I may need him for all the hordes out there.

Vehicle won't suck. If area terrain gives them Cover saves (reduce to glance saves) while they can still shoot at the enemy, they will be dead hard.

And by the way, what#s that silly talk with troops moving 12"? Do you play with weighted dices or what? The average is 3,5" buddies! 3,5"! So if the troops don't shoot and run they will move 9,5" a turn. And have you seen the point costs of rhinos these days? 35 or so points? That a steal! So what if it gets blown up, you can speed up, pop smoke and even if some if them get wrecked, the passengers won't be as dead and entangled as before. Other than that, if transports can pick up any unit and non-troops can't hold objectives, you need to taxi some guys around.

I'm optimistic...

Greets
Schepp himself

yeah, i run 2 VC toting fexes in my nid list, but if the intent was to have them eventually roll a 6 to destroy then it was the wrong intent. my whole thing is as long as i can stop the tank from shooting then im in the clear for another round.

i think a solid nerf to nidzilla is needed, the army is broke.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Bikes all now get a 3+ cover save for their turbo-boost. So the psy-cannon thing is out the window.

No more invulnerable saves for turbo-boosting bikes? Now that's more like it! It's been too long since Tzeentch last got tzcrewed and I was starting to get anxious. This is finally starting to sound like a proper new edition of 40k!

Yeah, we wouldn't want to screw over all of those bike-heavy Tzeentch armies (all 2 of them).

I think a cover save makes more sense, as the turbo-boost makes the bikes harder to hit, like how cover makes you harder to hit. Plus a 3+ cover save means its a boost for Eldar jetbikes and ork bikes.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Fast vehicles = 18"? Hellooooooo Star Engines

Toreador wrote:Not so overpointed if gaunts can screen them......

Hooray for vehicles shooting over screens.

Ozymandias wrote:Plus a 3+ cover save means its a boost for Eldar jetbikes and ork bikes.

Actually Eldar bikes were Armor Save 3 anyway so it doesn't really change anything.

Fine, then Dark Eldar Jetbikes.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I'm really liking the "Get Down!" rule, and hope it is true. Gives me a little hope when my Guard squad gets caught in the open by bolter fire.

What they should do though is have any squad that is pinned, whether by Get Down or any other means, not block LOS. That would make pinning even more valuable (even if tough to achieve).

Ozymandias wrote:Fine, then Dark Eldar Jetbikes.

Fair enough. Wasn't trying to be pedantic.

If the bikes save becomes a cover save when they turbo-boost, then why wouldn't a flame template weapon just kill them? I hope they make it cover or armor save and not just cover.

I'm still reeling about these changes. With one decent 'run' move on turn 1, Wraithcannons can be in range to shoot on turn 2. I think the run rule would have the biggest affect on shooty armies. They look to lose a turn or two of shooting before the assaults hit their lines.

I do not like defensive weapons at str 4. Str 5 should be the lowest they go. Vehicles will not be any more survivable with fast moving meltabombs and MC's slamming into their stationary sides.

The idea of all models blocking LOS bothways has some serious implications for anything that moves and shoots downfield. Oblits, Termies (maybe not for long), even attack bikes can use a marine shield and skim along the edge of it, slowly sweeping the enemy from right to left and minimizing the return fire and concentrating on one unit at a time.

I'm thinking Marine Attack Bikes will be the new in thing to take. 150pts gets you 3 Heavy Bolters or 3 Multimeltas that can be screened by friendly models, move carefully around those models to fire 3 heavy weapons at a target while maintaining LOS protection from the rest of the enemy body. 150pts for 3 heavies will also be a steel in an army losing cheap troop choice heavy weapons.

Troops lose more than half the heavy weapons they can fire back and vehicles can be out manuevered by the attack bikes who can skirt around and force the Predators to move and lose 2 shots in order to fire once. The attack bikes are also swift enough to keep away from 'running' troops who wish to assault them, at least fast enough to get a few extra round of fire in.

IntoTheRain wrote:The only thing that has really ticked me off is the defensive weapons are str. 4 or less. Vehicles in 4th could actually move and fire their payloads effectively in 4th. Falcons being overpowered had nothing to do with being able to move and fire their weapons.

Also, moving turbo boosting to cover saves will work for about 3 minutes, till someone remembers soul seeker ammo.

It also makes bikers meat for Tau who can use markerlights to reduce cover saves.

DarthDiggler wrote:If the bikes save becomes a cover save when they turbo-boost, then why wouldn't a flame template weapon just kill them? I hope they make it cover or armor save and not just cover.

I believe as the rules stand now, in any given situation you can opt to take a cover save or opt to stay with your armor save. I don't think it will be any different in a new version.

DarthDiggler wrote:The idea of all models blocking LOS bothways has some serious implications for anything that moves and shoots downfield. Oblits, Termies (maybe not for long), even attack bikes can use a marine shield and skim along the edge of it, slowly sweeping the enemy from right to left and minimizing the return fire and concentrating on one unit at a time.

Don't discount vehicles firing over screens, elevated firing positions (hills, buildings, etc.) firing over screens, deepstrikers, infiltrators coming on from different table edges, etc. It won't be unstoppable.

Schepp himself wrote:First off to all people who will or did cry about the nerfing of Nidzilla: don't act like a...!

You bought the freakin army because you knew it was hardcore. Amazingly hardcore and top-tier. I want to see a Tyranid player with a maxed out TMC army before 4th edition? Hm? Where are the hand? Oh noes, no hands there! That's because they weren't hard as nails before! Come, you ain't stupid, if you buy an army just for the cheese of it, prepare to be hit by a big fat nerf stick with the new codex/edition.

To keep the record straight, the reason there were no "Nidzilla" armies before 4th edition, was because you couldn't make a Nidzilla army before 4th edition. Specifically, until the 4th ed Tyranid book came out. And I'd be willing to be a bunch of people ran out and went Nidzilla becaue of the awesome new plastic carnifex AND the white dwarf spread that showed that one guy's awesome Nidzilla army when they first came out.

Anyone who bought a particular army just because it was L33t and can pwnzor in competitions will just buy whatever army happens to be L33t in the new edition.

Since GW never balance things, there will always be L33t armies and units.

What matters for most players is not what is the most effective competition build, but whether they can have fun with the armies they have now, plus some new items.

For example, most people with Orky armies are the old-timer Ork players, rejuvenated by a well-deserved new codex. If they get a big leg up from the new rules, well they are already playing Orks anyway. We just have to hope that someone elses' army isn't completely nerfed.

In this respect, GW making a rule that the no.1 rule is to "have fun" is stupid and pointless and an abdication of their responsibility. Players will find their own way to adapt to changes.

Okay, guys. I am playing Nids and i have only a maximum of 1 MC per 500 points. Most of the time i play with 3 MCs at 2000 points, so this can hardly be called Nidzilla.

Having said that, i really depend on my Hive Tyrant (Venom Cannon, TL Deathspitter) the Dakkafex, my VC/DS Warrior squad and the Sniperfex to stun vehicles and finally kill them.

Now all those configurations suck extremely, because the VC will not be able to kill anything (which would be okay), and now does care about fast moving vehicles and cover. (cover saves instead of a reduction to glancin). At the same time my twin linked Deathspitter at BS4 is a waste of points. (the deathspitter hardly was a overpowered choice, i liked the looks and the idea of a specialiced medium tank hunter).

Now with those options heavily reduced i seriously wonder, how my other critters are supposed to kill vehicles (especially Eldar skimmers), without me suddenly going Nidzilla my self (this time with a Flyrant and Ninjafexes).

Biovore? Come on...
Zoanthrope? Most of the time they are nullified (psychic hood) or they blow themself up (rune of whatever).

Genestealers and Raveners now hit the rear armour? Who cares. They had rending (which gets toned down). In the past i had a real chance to kill the vehicle, now i have to glance and glance and glance again.

The funny part is (and these ones i really like): Winged Warriors will become the number one vehicle hunters (S5...) after Flyrants and Lictors will actually kick donkey! But only against non-skimmers. Oh, and Dreadnaughts. They will be a problem too.

I hate Nidzilla as most of the people here and i like all the changes, that actually make swarmy Nids better. But how the heck am i supposed to deal with mobile tanks other than glance them until round 6?

Maybe it's all balanced with mission objectives, etc. but i don't consider it fun to not have a real chance against a whole class of enemy units with my army.

The new fast skimmer rule is great for all other armies, but it is the worst, that could have happened to Nids.

Stingray_tm wrote:The funny part is (and these ones i really like): Winged Warriors will become the number one vehicle hunters (S5...) after Flyrants and Lictors will actually kick donkey!

I guess GW needed FW to sell more Nid wings...

Am I the only one who thinks that the LOS changes are the biggest step backwards in this whole list of changes? I mean, the new system for targetting priority _worked_. If this LOS change is mean to balance something else in the new rules, I can't tell what that would be. It looks like swallowing the spider to catch the fly, to me.

And I find the idea of driving up and unloading flamers being the best way to deal with turbo-boosting bikes completely ridiculous. Sure, psycannons broke the turbo rule, but they were a pretty limited problem (and hell, Grey Knights deserve _something_ in their favor).

Speaking of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", I really hope they keep TOF in there. It s was a great rule if it had just been better explained, as an earlier poster pointed out.

These rules reek of pre-playtesting guess work. I'd be surprised if even half of them made it to the final edition. Unless, of course, Gav or Alessio have their hammy little fists in them.

This report seems to break the "40K more like Fantasy" theme that we've seen. I wouldn't be surprised if things like no running within 12", morale mods for CC, etc. just got missed by the OP.

Finally, a question: with the changes to Scout moves and LOS as well as vehicular cover saves,do you fellows think that the all-Sentinel army may actually be a viable build?

I can see if they change it so escalation is more common (few units to start with) then having reserves able to run on will be really usefull, otherwise you'll be able to cross those 24 inches of no mans land in 2-3 turns HtH armies will be too powerful

@Ozy whatever the Heck your name is:

I would jump ship cause GW can't seem to get things right. I kind of agree with HBMC in the fact that I like the Fluff of 40k, but not so much the rules.

Lately I just prefer PP and the fine ruleset they have with Warmachine/Hordes. They are both solid games with great rule mechanics. At least with that game I can create a viable themed army and not get the million min/maxer's out there saying the army will get hosed by this, or that.

I understand that GW is in the business of making money and to do so is to make unit x AWSOME so all the fanboyz run out and build uber army based on unit x, then when that milk train runs dry, then GW moves onto unit y, then onto z.

What sucks is when you build an army based upon unit x, then a few months later it sucks. I feel for the High elf players who had all-calvary list with lots of Silver helms. I was gonna make such a list, but decided to wait. I am glad I did or else I would be stuck with a bunch or basically worthless models.

I feel for the chaos players. That codex sucked, and before that DA and to some degree BT, now we have the Ork codex which in the area I play the hardcore ork players think the codex sucks.

Another thing that I find is that within the PP comunity there seems to be less bitchiness than in the 40k circles. I started the game when it first came out back in the mid-late eighties.

I was in junior high then and I loved the background, I loved the various influences I saw GW take from popular sci-fi at the time. When I saw the first IG guys, I thought cool these guys remind me of the colonial marines from Aliens.

But since that time I feel like GW lost something. When second edition came out, that's when I felt a sort of min/maxing feel came into the game. When people looked at units and thought how best to exploit them or how they could fit the maximum number of uber unit into their list. I had a god friend do it and it ruined the game for me.

It was no longer take the stuff that you think looks cool and have fun, it was take this ultimate list and crush...These are a few of the reasons why I would jump ship. These are a few of the reasons why I like the Apocalypse expansion.

I would love to see GW wipe the slate clean and start all over again. Try to go through each codex and balance it with one another. To make each unit viable and worthy of fielding.

As it is, I can see Pathfinder armies become viable with this new edition. I can see how BA marines will be pretty powerful, screen the assualt units or veteran assault units with either tanks or rhino's or even the cheapest troop choice possible.

I can see the Million man march BT's Marines become viable. 1 Emperor's champ and a couple of cheap Chaplains leading 20 man strong units doing the new march move, plus righteous zeal move and on and on....

Anyway enough of my rant, I am not a troll and apologize if it seems like I am flame baiting to which I am not, it just that GW frustrates me and I think others as well. who knows maybe I am totally wrong and barking up the wrong tree.

Sorry,
Chappy P!

Well it seems that being a 200 point skimmer with AV12 isn't a wonderful thing anymore. You're 6" faster than a Predator, cost a whole lot more, and die easier. You have to buy Star Engines for your vehicle to have any sort of speed. You suffer penetrating hits from left and right and 3 of the 6 results kill you, not to mention the fact that AP1 weapons get +1 to the roll. Railgun hits on 3+, 3+ to penetrate, 3+ to destroy. 200 points well spent. A 5+ cover save just doesn't cut it. Skimmers should get a 3+ cover save if they move at max speed, just like turbo-boosting bikes. That of course is unless GW seriously wants to sell a lot of bikes and no tanks. They didn't sell any Rhinos during the entire 4th edition so I guess it's fine by GW.

On the other hand, armor 14 looks insane good. Lascannons have to roll a 6 to even get a chance to destroy a Monolith. Railguns are the only thing that seem to have a reliable chance of killing it, and even that chance is smaller than it is in the 4th edition. Meltaguns have to roll a 6 to glance, and then 6 to destroy. Ork Rokkits and Kannons are now completely unable to destroy the Monolith, as are Barbed Stranglers and Venom Cannons, as are rending attacks.

Falcons being overpowered had nothing to do with being able to move and fire their weapons.

...and in a manner that GW has grown accustomed to, they nerfed skimmers with a sledgehammer and condemned them to the shelves for the next four years. They didn't just want to change the SMF rule to something more balanced, they also had to nerf their speed and firepower. A fire support tank can park behind some ruins, get a 4+ cover save or better and fire all weapons each turn, while more expensive skimmers have to move each turn to get a weaker cover save for their weaker armour while firing less weapons. Something is wrong here. Someone at GW has to think that balance isn't good for business, and that it's better to have overpowered and underpowered units. My actions will prove GW right, because I'm going to buy two new completely overpowered armies next summer.

Warseer member "Champsguy wrote:Vehicles

For shooting, it sounds like regular Vehicles are unchanged and Fast Vehicles are simply Vehicles with +6" movement. This is actually a good little simplification and makes things more playable.

Vehicle damage chart: 1-2 is the can't shoot/move thing, 3 is weapon, 4 is immobilized, 5-6 destroyed/annihilated). Glance is a -2.

This is as expected for the Penetrating chart. I'm surprised that Glancing is -2 instead of -1, as you can't directly destroy a (non-Skimmer) vehicle via Glancing hits. Overall, vehicle survivability went up in a big way, especially with Hull Down giving a cover save for no effect.

Transports: If your transport is destroyed, passengers now take a Str 4 hit, saves allowed (instead of a 4+). If an open-topped transport is destroyed, it's a Str 3 hit because its easier to disembark.

Suck to be Guard, Tau, & Eldar, esp. Harlequins. Yay for the Marines, esp. Plague Marines. Personally, balance-wise, 4+ is a lot fairer - it's not like the T3 infantry needed to be wounded more often. Guard are going to lose almost half their guys when a Chimera blows up. Ouch.

LOS: I'm pretty sure that it's units that block LOS, so you shouldn't worry about spending 45 minutes drawing LOS from each individual trooper to each individual target.
There's an entire chapter on ruined buildings and how they affect line of sight (like a mini Cities of Death).

OK, it's good to see GW dealing with area terrain separate from volume terrain / buildings.

Running can be done w/in 12" of an enemy. You just can't charge if you run.

Also good not to have premeasuring. Fleet can charge, so it's better.

After shooting and wounding, you can choose to become pinned. You get a +1 to cover save (or a 6+ if you're in the open). It's the "get down!" rule.

This is awesome, and exactly what should have been in place from the beginning.

Gets Hot! is back to the 3rd ed version.

Woo hoo! IG troopers can double-tap Plasma again.

Ground vehicles that move at full speed and cross dangerous terrain roll 2D6 for their test. If one "one" is rolled, they're immobilized. If two "ones" are rolled, the vehicle flips over and is considered destroyed.

Heh. That's pretty funny. I wonder if this also applies to Bikes. (it should).

Flamers: You now determine wounds for all template weapons firing from a squad before you take saves or remove casualties!!!

Yes! More killy!

Bikes all now get a 3+ cover save for their turbo-boost. So the psy-cannon thing is out the window.

Do they still blitz 24", or only 18". If Bikes go faster than Grav Tanks and Landspeeders, that would be dumb.

A unit with Scouts that is inside a vehicle confers that ability to the vehicle!!! Let the Pathfinders and Possessed Marines rule!

That's wierd, but solves a rules argument, so OK.

Blast weapons don't roll to hit, they just scatter. However, they now operate like template weapons in that any model touched by the blast is hit. None of this "roll 4+ for partial" stuff. A unit firing multiple blast weapons (a SM Dev squad being the example) fires like a multiple barrage unit would in 4th edition.

This works. No sniping, lots of utility, standardized mechanic. All good.

No shooting of defensive weapons if you move full speed.

With Defensive weapons being S4 or less, this doesn't matter so much, though it'd have been nice.

3) Yes, vehicles can now get up to a 3+ cover save, depending on what they're hiding behind.

Predators in cover are going to rock very hard.

Smoke launchers are a 5+ cover save.

Ha, I knew it. Good change.

Voodoo boy wrote:This is overall, in my opinion, a good thing for 40K.

I agree.

mauleed wrote:Anything that bones Godzilla nids is a wonderful thing.

Have to agree there.

'Zilla 'Nids are not 'Nids. 'Nids are supposed to be about carpets of little gribbleys punctuated by the odd big critter. Current 'Nids is played in the opposite manner. Anything that forces people to play 'Nids like 'Nids should be is a good thing.

BYE

Therion wrote:Skimmers should get a 3+ cover save if they move at max speed, just like turbo-boosting bikes.

Totally agreed.

It should be:
3+ cover save for moving 12-18",
5+ cover save for moving 6-12".

Why? The fluff I've seen is lots of both little and big gribblies. And the occasional bio titan.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

mauleed wrote:Anything that bones Godzilla nids is a wonderful thing.

Have to agree there.

'Zilla 'Nids are not 'Nids. 'Nids are supposed to be about carpets of little gribbleys punctuated by the odd big critter. Current 'Nids is played in the opposite manner. Anything that forces people to play 'Nids like 'Nids should be is a good thing.

BYE

Sounds like alot of whining to me.

Maybe you guys should play the 200 model Tyranid list at a GT, let me know how fun it was.

I know it sure as gak drove me to shelve my Nids because moving 200 guys FOURTEEN times in a game is lame.

Stingray_tm wrote:Having said that, i really depend on my Hive Tyrant (Venom Cannon, TL Deathspitter) the Dakkafex, my VC/DS Warrior squad and the Sniperfex to stun vehicles and finally kill them.

Of course you do. So do the other 3 non-Nid Zilla Tyranid players in the world. It's no fair in the slightest for the Tyranid players that do play 'Nids like 'Nids, and we feel sorry for you.

But this is GW my friend! They always make sweeping core game changes to fix specific problems, thereby creating other problems elsewhere. If the problem is Zilla 'Nids, they amend the damage charts and change the missions so that you need troops and Venom Canons start sucking rather than, y'know, actually fixing 'Zilla nids. Falcons a problem too aren't they? So what do they do? Dramatically alter the rules for vehicles!!!

I can't think of anyone else who makes basic game changes to fix specific Codex problems, but this is GW's MO through and through. You shouldn't be surprised. I'm not saying be happy about it, I'm just saying that this is normal.

BYE

Savnock wrote:I mean, the new system for targetting priority _worked_.

The new system for target prioruty was _dumb_.

It made small firepower units and vital HQ units (Guard HW squads, CHQs, Dark Reapers, etc.) unworkable. And all that was required was an Ld check, something everyone does almost automatically due to the high amounts of Ld9 and Ld10, and then the biggest army without Ld10 as standard (Marines) then got that thanks to the Rites of Battle rule! It was a hopeless sham, and a step backwards from the screening hell of 3rd Ed.

BYE

Stelek wrote:Maybe you guys should play the 200 model Tyranid list at a GT, let me know how fun it was.

Oh get over yourself. I didn't specifically mean Tyranid armies with 200 models. I meant armies that actually take Gaunts, Warriors and things other than TMCs and 'Stealers. True mixed armies of lots of smalls and some bigs (smalls being everything that isn't a TMC).

Right now the closest thing to that is Stealer Shock, and that's another army that's about to get Nerfed thanks to sweeping general rules changes.

Not since the new Codex came out have 'Nids acted like 'Nids.

BYE

I really don't understand most of the rumours. How can it be that they increase the movement value of foot troops for free and reduce the movement value of units (including vehicles) that pay a lot of points for their mobility? In no way are the old army books compatible with these rules changes. Some of the points values will make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Tyranids going from the most close combat oriented army to being the top tier shooting army it is today was an abortion of logical codex creation anyway. And as for str 4 weapons being defensive, woot go ork battlewagons with 4 bolt on big shootas and 2 sponson ones.

So wait a sec - if these rumors are true, we might see the radical change of Nids having to open up enemy vehicles in HtH, rather than shooting them? Wow.