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JohnHwangDD wrote:So wait a sec - if these rumors are true, we might see the radical change of Nids having to open up enemy vehicles in HtH, rather than shooting them? Wow.

Brings a smile to my face just thinking about that.

This might be one area where you and I, John, might actually see eye-to-eye on something.

BYE

Brings a smile to my face just thinking about that.

This might be one area where you and I, John, might actually see eye-to-eye on something.

Remember that rending claws can only glance, so the Nids are placing their hopes on the lumbering non-scoring MCs to make close combat with tanks that are faster than they are.

Therion wrote:

Brings a smile to my face just thinking about that.

This might be one area where you and I, John, might actually see eye-to-eye on something.

Remember that rending claws can only glance, so the Nids are placing their hopes on the lumbering non-scoring MCs to make close combat with tanks that are faster than they are.

not that much faster, if the rumors are true....

But HBMC Nid warriors are typically viewed as a sucky unit.

I don't mind Tyranids and I do see your point in the fact that nids should be a horde type army, but obviously the designers thought otherwise.

Such as the new Plastic Carnifex kit. How do we sell these en masse, I know say Phil Kelly, I'll allow up to 8 TMC's in a list. I remember when the codex first came out and people laughed at the idea of the zilla list. I remember people telling me it would never be a viable list, then suddenly it becomes top tier (build depending of coarse.)

The problem with nids specifically comes to their inability to tank bust effectively. Try getting a CC carnifex into combat. Usually my CC fex ends up grabbing a table quarter or an objective because the guy I am facing runs away from him.

Again this is where I look at the game designers and say what the heck were you thinking!?!? They should go to each list and say this army should be seen as this and make the rules flow and follow the fluff they have written.

Again this is why I like PP's stuff, because when you read the fluff of Warcaster X, the fluff is then translated excellently into X's rules.

Recent example would be the Pirate warcaster Shae, he lives, eats and breaths life on a ship and is used to the rolling deck of his ship, so in combat he gets an ability to not be knocked off his feet with his ability aptly named "sealegs."

This is what I want from GW. I am reading Brothers of the Snake by Dan Abnett and I love his work, this is not as good as say his Guants Ghost, but still very good. However if you wanted to play the Iron Snake Chapter you have to ditch some of the fluff due to the rules. I have thought about doing an Iron Snake army, but I am scared about getting all the stuff I need only to have it nerfed in a few month with either a new set of rules or a new codex.

Again my 2 cents,

Chappy P!

Therion wrote:Remember that rending claws can only glance, so the Nids are placing their hopes on the lumbering non-scoring MCs to make close combat with tanks that are faster than they are.

They can still penetrate the armour normally with regular Strength+D6 attacks.

BYE

but the issue is the new glancing rules...Sure you can get a glancing hit, but you need to take time to whittle down the tank till it finally explodes?? I think that seems rather silly to me...

Chappy p!

Not if it follows existing rules HBMC. Strength + D6 is glancing 10 on the rear. They can change that with toxin sacs though.

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:But HBMC Nid warriors are typically viewed as a sucky unit. I don't mind Tyranids and I do see your point in the fact that nids should be a horde type army, but obviously the designers thought otherwise.

Yeah, I know. At some point the vision of what Tyranids should be, and what they actually are (a Codex full of junk units with a few good ones) has to collide.

That said I don't think they really thought there'd be a problem. I think they actually think that they made a nice balanced Codex, rather than a Codex that suited two styles of play correctly and made others impossible. Oh well, 'Nids will decent to the bottom of the army latter soon, and we won't have to worry about it until they make a new Gaunt plastic kit and give them killer rules.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:So wait a sec - if these rumors are true, we might see the radical change of Nids having to open up enemy vehicles in HtH, rather than shooting them? Wow.

I am afraid, but if these rumours are true, we might see the radical change of Nids not being able to kill vehicles rather than shooting them!

I did some mathhammer. You need about 100 Genestealer attacks to finally bring down a vehicle with 4 weapons. And this target mustn't move or we are talking about 200 or even 600 attacks...

The only thing that could reliably bring down vehicles (non skimmers!) would be... surprise... cc MCs...

The rumored LOS changes leave me with mixed feelings. Units block LOS, but terrain doesn't? WTF?

At this point though, I don't care. So long as I don't have to have a five minute discussion before each game explaining what the rule book says to a new opponent, and everyone is on the same page.

Clearing up the LOS rules so everyone 'knows' what they mean would be an enormous improvement IMHO.

Stingray_tm wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:So wait a sec - if these rumors are true, we might see the radical change of Nids having to open up enemy vehicles in HtH, rather than shooting them? Wow.

I am afraid, but if these rumours are true, we might see the radical change of Nids not being able to kill vehicles rather than shooting them!

I did some mathhammer. You need about 100 Genestealer attacks to finally bring down a vehicle with 4 weapons. And this target mustn't move or we are talking about 200 or even 600 attacks...

The only thing that could reliably bring down vehicles (non skimmers!) would be... surprise... cc MCs...

If we're talking about Monoliths that can't really even be hit in close combat the Tyranids or Orks simply don't destroy them. It's fun to have unkillable models around.

and what they actually are (a Codex full of junk units with a few good ones)

You're right and I voiced my concerns about that when the codex was released. Same applies to Eldar of course, and they'll suffer largely the same fate as Nids. If an army book is so bad that you can make only one competitive build out of it, and that build then gets obliterated because of rules changes, you're left with nothing but junk. Making a good unit worse doesn't make the terrible units any better.

But the problem with Close Combat Carnifexes is their lack of speed. Any player worth his salt will just keep their vehicles and units free and clear of the lumbering beast, I know because my CC Carnifex has never seen action in all the times I have played my zilla's.

@Stingray_TM: Yeah that's the real issue...It'll take a lot of CC attacks to bring down vehicles now. Who wants most of their army tide up trying to bring down a tank when the other guy is just pulling back systematically picking apart your army.

Thanks,
Chappy P!

PS: I am sorry to be so focused on nids, but it's just what I know best currently and am the most familiar with. I also see how these new changes will make the $300 plus dollar army I build and make it complete crap! Thanks GW for boning a loyal buyer yet again.

Remember that your Carnifex can Run now, which will make it easier to get into CC, and that if vehicles have to dance around to avoid your Carnifex from peeling it open like an aluminum can they're not shooting much.

Salvation122 wrote:Remember that your Carnifex can Run now, which will make it easier to get into CC, and that if vehicles have to dance around to avoid your Carnifex from peeling it open like an aluminum can they're not shooting much.

Well, i hoped, that i don't need to use an additional Carnifex in order to do, what my swarm was able to do until now. No one wants more Godzilla, but this is the direction.

I thought that the new marching rules were for troops only or did I miss something?? I'll have to go back a read a bit more carefully...

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Therion wrote:
If we're talking about Monoliths that can't really even be hit in close combat the Tyranids or Orks simply don't destroy them. It's fun to have unkillable models around.

No, it's not. That's not my idea of fun, if i don't have a chance to kill a certain unit. That's bad gamedesign. There should be a Tyranid way of dealing with this threat not "Sorry, you are playing the wrong army. But don't worry, it's fun (for me) that you can't hurt my tank".

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Such as the new Plastic Carnifex kit. How do we sell these en masse, I know say Phil Kelly, I'll allow up to 8 TMC's in a list.

And yet the Eldar didn't get 6+ Wraithlords for their new plastic kit. Funny, that. It's almost like the Eldar Codex writers didn't get the message to pump model sales of the new Wraithlord...

The problem with nids specifically comes to their inability to tank bust effectively. Try getting a CC carnifex into combat.

First, he can't spend half his game hiding in cover. Second, he'll have Fleet of some sort.

Again this is why I like PP's stuff, because when you read the fluff of Warcaster X,

I played Warmachine waayyy back when it first came out and battles were still about the 'Jacks. Still have my Cryx. To me, with the non-customizable Warcasters, it's kind of like playing a card game: "Denigra, I choose YOU!"

Certainly, I would not be excited about having to buy a stack of quarterly rules supplements to stay on top of the game. It's nice to just buy the one Codex and have it for a few years. And rule-wise, I got to wonder if the original Slayer is still points-competitive. I'm thinking he's now rules-obsolete, meaning unsalvageable unit PP decides to do a full-game rebalance and refresh.

Therion wrote:If we're talking about Monoliths...

We should expect a new Necron Codex to follow shortly after 5th Ed releases. Rules-wise the Necrons are an absolute disaster.

If WBB becomes FNP and Gauss becomes (nerfed) Rending, that will solve the two most basic problems. Then it's simply a question of cleaning up "Living Metal" (always Glancing) and Phaseout (less than 2 Scoring units of Necron Warriors).

No, it's not. That's not my idea of fun, if i don't have a chance to kill a certain unit. That's bad gamedesign. There should be a Tyranid way of dealing with this threat not "Sorry, you are playing the wrong army. But don't worry, it's fun (for me) that you can't hurt my tank".

Have a look at Apocalypse. It's marketed as something completely imbalanced and stupid and that's exactly what I think it is. GW has got this idea that whenever they don't want to spend the time to write balanced rules, they'll put in the disclaimer "remember that this game is supposed to be more about fun than anything else." When six Fire Prisms come from reserve and drop 6 S10 AP1 apocalyptic barrage templates on top of your army and annihilate you, we're talking about GW's idea of fun.

The fact is that a new rulebook like this makes people who want to stay in the game buy new models, and the people who don't want to stay in the game undoubtedly get replaced by new people. GW has a new CEO and the company hasn't been doing all that well recently so it's time for a major revamp. If you for a second think that GW would place your idea of fun ahead of making money you're being childish. Some armies will be incredibly underpowered for the entirety of the 5th edition because of these new rules, while others will prosper. The players who want to keep winning buy new models and new armies.

Gauss becomes (nerfed) Rending

That would be a significant buff to Necrons. 18 Necron Warriors rapid firing would then be able to kill a 4 wound TMC. The funny thing about 40K points costs is that they're so completely off that it's unreal. The Monolith could easily cost 285 points and noone would complain.

Certainly, I would not be excited about having to buy a stack of quarterly rules supplements to stay on top of the game. It's nice to just buy the one Codex and have it for a few years. And rule-wise, I got to wonder if the original Slayer is still points-competitive. I'm thinking he's now rules-obsolete, meaning unsalvageable unit PP decides to do a full-game rebalance and refresh.

You would rather go 4 or 5 years with a worthless codex instead?

What are you considering to be a worthless Codex?

I'd consider building a nid army if the close combat carnifex was viable through the run rule. Lots of gaunts, a few stealers with a broodlord and a Hive Tyrant and assault carnifexes would be visually appealing to me.

All these rules have me laughing my ass off at a$$hat falcon harlequin spam players. They'll have to ditch their now-uber lists because they wont rock nearly as hard anymore, pissed that they have to pick up new models.

In the meantime, my falcon-free competetive foot-slogging eldar just got stronger with all the new rules.

Ha-Ha!

Therion wrote:That would be a significant buff to Necrons. 18 Necron Warriors rapid firing would then be able to kill a 4 wound TMC. The funny thing about 40K points costs is that they're so completely off that it's unreal. The Monolith could easily cost 285 points and noone would complain.

That assumes that Warriors don't get a sizable cost increase in their new book. If Gauss becomes Rending they'd easily be worth 22-25 points apiece.

JohnHwangDD wrote:What are you considering to be a worthless Codex?

Don't be intentionally obtuse John. He's speaking generally.

If a worthless Codex was written (and there have been many of those in the past, but we'll ignore that for the time being), I think that players would be happier with updates and such rather than just being told 'Sorry, wait 4-8 years for a revision'.

I think the Ork players here would agree...

BYE

In the meantime, my falcon-free competetive foot-slogging eldar just got stronger with all the new rules.

I refuse to believe your footslogging Eldar are anything even remotely like competitive, but as an Eldar player I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

Therion wrote:

In the meantime, my falcon-free competetive foot-slogging eldar just got stronger with all the new rules.

I refuse to believe your footslogging Eldar are anything even remotely like competitive, but as an Eldar player I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

Its not Nidzilla or Falcon spam competetive, but its 77 fearless foot troopers with a fortuned avatar and 6 guided warwalkers played by someone who knows what his AND your army can do competetive.

I've been competetive and not a push-over with it. Thats not to say that really smart players with the Uber lists cannot beat me.

....its still getting better in the new system though from these rumours, and I wont have to change my tactics with an army I'm used to. Its part of the bonus that people get that dont buy into totally easy armies to win with.

So Nids will basically have to suck it up and wait for a new Codex to come out that makes the Venom Cannon S9 Max and can penetrate Vehicles (or they could do that via FAQ, probably won't).

Oh well, welcome to the Ork players world before the new Codex. "Oh you're uncompetitive, well sorry - wait till we finish these other armies first and then we'll address your problems."

But if GW followed the PP model, you wouldn't even *get* a Codex, only an endless stream of piecemeal updates (additions).

Your CSM might just be CSM, Defilers, and Havocs. But mixed in you'll also have Shoota Boyz, Heavy Destroyers, War Walkers, and Stormtroopers.

Then next quarter, you buy another book to get rules for Possessed & Terminators. Along with Death Company, Wave Serpents and Basilisks. And 4 chapters of Dan Abnett's latest novella.

And so on.

It's the never-ending treadmill of PP stuff that I'm protesting.


Also, given that I've got several largish armies with lots of options, the odds that one of them will be strong easily offsets the odds that another one or two might be weak. So if my Eldar (or parts of my Eldar) spend 4-8 years on the shelf, I'm OK with that, because it just means my Marines or Guard get more play.

Plus, as I've retooled towards more "balanced" armies, I think I'll be even more "future-proofed" against rules changes.

If, by some strange miracle, all of my 40k armies are "unplayable", then I can always play Fantasy, Gothic, Necro, Mord, or any of a number of other GW / non-GW games.

Wait a minute. What is all this talk about Nids not being able to take down armor 14? Can't Nids take 3 Zopes with Warp Blast? Isn't Warp Blast str 10 at 18"? Since when is Str 10 weak? Monoliths have short range guns and cheap bugs can screen Zopes until they get in range. Besides all that, what's wrong with causing a Necron phase out to kill the Monolith?

As for Land Raiders, I don't think it was the Vennom Cannon that has kept the Land Raider out of the top lists. I think it is the enemy Lascannons, Meltaguns, Brightlances, etc... that keep Land Raiders off of the top table armies.