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I think JohnHwang stumbled over a pretty big factor in whether a person will look forward to or fear new rules: the sheer size of the army(ies) the person owns.

I have about 6k of IG, so while my armies might never be top teir, I can reliably field a pretty competitive build, whatever that is from the codex.

On the other hand, a gamer with exactly 1850 of nidzilla dreads every change, because a few or nearly all of the models he owns will be affected, leading to more purchases and painting.

It doesn't make one side or another right, but it probably explains at least some of my eagerness for a new edition.

How did we get to page 5? Wow.

DarthDiggler wrote:Wait a minute. What is all this talk about Nids not being able to take down armor 14? Can't Nids take 3 Zopes with Warp Blast? Isn't Warp Blast str 10 at 18"? Since when is Str 10 weak? Monoliths have short range guns and cheap bugs can screen Zopes until they get in range. Besides all that, what's wrong with causing a Necron phase out to kill the Monolith?

As for Land Raiders, I don't think it was the Vennom Cannon that has kept the Land Raider out of the top lists. I think it is the enemy Lascannons, Meltaguns, Brightlances, etc... that keep Land Raiders off of the top table armies.

Zoanthropes are excellent, but experienced play has demonstrated they're unreliable AT at best. Having to close within 18" will force you out into the open, the 'thropes are pretty tough but will quickly perish to any opponent keen to kill them and protect his tanks. You're also a single shot BS 3 weapon, and vulnerable to enemy librarians. A list relying on zoanthropes for AT is likely to punished by any list fielding mutliple armour units.

@Sebster: I agree, Zoe's can be used for AT, but their problem lies with the fact that you have to get extremely close to the enemy and the point payout might not be worth it.

As far as PP goes, it is not so much a treadmill as it was put earlier. You can choose to get whatever expansion you want when you want, and it doesn't effect the game. With the new Remix book of prime, it contains all the rules you need, plus PP is great at FAQ's and keeping said faq up to date, unlike GW. When was the last time they put out a faq??

The other thing I love about PP is that all units have some sort of viability. True some people favor a particular unit over others, but they all have a place. I buy what I like and what I think looks cool and it all comes out in the end.

@Plonius: I would agree, if you have 6k points in whatever army then new changes don't effect you, but some of us in the gaming community do not have that, nor do new gamers. I know my gaming expenditures is not what it used to be, so with each new codex/army book revision, I do cringe wondering what will work and what won't.

Again just a few thoughts
Thanks,
Chappy P!

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:

@Plonius: I would agree, if you have 6k points in whatever army then new changes don't effect you, but some of us in the gaming community do not have that, nor do new gamers. I know my gaming expenditures is not what it used to be, so with each new codex/army book revision, I do cringe wondering what will work and what won't.

That was pretty much my point: people with smaller collections are more likely to be worried about a new edition. At risk of sounding obnoxious, I'd imagine people with generalist armies are less worried than those with narrow themed armies. It's times like this where all gamers really have to remind themselves that the GW hobby isn't just painting and playing with GW minis, it's buying, painting, and playing with GW minis. To reuse a tired joke, if you don't want to buy more miniatures, you might be in the wrong hobby. To be clear, I'm mocking GW more than any poster, of course.

The big advantage GW has is that they're betting it'll be cheaper in the long wrong for a hobbyist to rebuild an army and keep playing 40k than to get into a new game, especially since now new game has lasted much longer than 4-5 years in competition to 40k. PP is really making a legit run at it, and they might be the one to really break out as the solid #2 mini gaming company. If you don't think PP's business model involves a way to get you to buy new models every year, you might be disappointed. It's the way of the world.

What I like about how PP does stuff is there is less waiting. Whenever an expansion comes out, everyone gets stuff. Ork players had to wait 9 years before they got a new codex. The witchhunters aren't even going to get a 4th edition codex. The idea of giving everything something new is an awesome way of alway keeping the game interesting. On top of that, rules questions gets taken care of quickly. I really hate how GW never takes care of rules issues, and when they do take care of rules issues, more problems crop up. I'm looking at you Tyranid FAQ...

DarthDiggler wrote:Wait a minute. What is all this talk about Nids not being able to take down armor 14? Can't Nids take 3 Zopes with Warp Blast? Isn't Warp Blast str 10 at 18"? Since when is Str 10 weak? Monoliths have short range guns and cheap bugs can screen Zopes until they get in range. Besides all that, what's wrong with causing a Necron phase out to kill the Monolith?

It's not only about Liths. This is what i have to do in order to kill (or better: to penetrage) a Landraider with.

- get inside 18"
- don't screw up the pschic test
- don't get cancelled by Librarian
- hit on 4+
- penetrate on 4+

Now the whole army has three of those shots. That's less firepower than a single SM Devastator squad has.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
And yet the Eldar didn't get 6+ Wraithlords for their new plastic kit. Funny, that. It's almost like the Eldar Codex writers didn't get the message to pump model sales of the new Wraithlord...

Well, they already got way overboard with Harlequins, giving that treatment to other new units would have been too obvious, even for GW...

All I can say is that Forced March will probably make my horde Black Templars a decent competitor again. Maybe not a top tier list, mind you, but a good challenge for your typical gamer.

All this time I've been cramming in as many Terminators as possible to complement my already large Troops base of fatty Crusader Squads. If 5th Edition throws Forced March and Infantry Screening back into the mix, I imagine that Black Templars (as well as all the other horde lists out there) will make a solid comeback and become a fairly common, respected opponent, instead of being relegated to a sub-par level as they have in the past.

CK

Thinking about it some more, forced march would also bugger up the current assault/rapid fire/heavy set up.

One of the problems with 2nd ed was that you never saw troops fire as they advanced. Units with heavy weapons stood still and fired all their guns. Units wanting to assault gave up their chance to shoot by running and then charging. All those orks with pistols never, ever shot them as they were too busy running at the enemy.

Starting with third ed, 40K took things in a new direction, getting rid of the run/walk/charge options, and giving everything a chance to move the average amount. They then gave them weapons options, meaning troops properly equipped with assault weapons could maintain their fire as they advanced. Tyranids and orks could march forward under these new rules and fire supporting rounds. GW largely buggered this up by making shoota boyz rapid fire (but they've fixed that now) and making dual purpose tyranid warriors too expensive (still wrong), but the principle is sound.

But with the proposed rule buggers that up. if you're interested in assaulting you'll happily ignore those shots for the opportunity to close with the enemy a little sooner. You won't see assault weapon used to support the advance anymore.

Well it would be even worse for the defending side if assaulters could move, shoot, pseudo-fleet, and assault.

Kilkrazy wrote:Well it would be even worse for the defending side if assaulters could move, shoot, pseudo-fleet, and assault.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that this is a regressive step that will undo much of the rules structure put in place for third and fourth ed. Maybe we're better off with a different system with a mechanic for running, but if that's the case the only sensible thing is to throw out the whole rapid fire/assault/heavy categories, probably along with the move/shoot/charge sequence.

The proposed rule change, taken at face value and assuming no other significant rules changes are to be announced, is a weird hybrid where many rules will exist for no particular reason. Either this is an extremely preliminary GW idea, or an idea made up by a fan who didn't really think it through, or there are other significant rules changes to come, or GW are about to release a really goofy set of rules.

You are quite right.

Whilst no-one is suggesting that the existing rumours are finished work, the past history of GW releases does not fill one with confidence that all the loose ends, ambiguities and unfortunate unexpectedly large effects will be wrapped up neatly in the finished product.

We may find that troops with assault weapons are allowed to move, shoot and pseudo-fleet, and troops with RF weapons are allowed to move and shoot to max range, but not pseudo-fleet the same turn.

I'm still unsure how woods will work regarding new LOS rules.

Anyone have any insight to this?

Perhaps they won't?

Not kidding, it just seems to me that you can treat woods as a group of individual trees in which case everyone will need a laser pointer to figure out the LOS, or else you treat it as area terrain. The problem with the area terrain system now is not that it is a bad idea but that it is badly explained.

If we go back to the days of laser pointing LOS I'm out of here. The game sucketh much at that point.

Therion: Foot slogging Eldar do have the capacity to win in competitive play (mostly due to the ridiculous fearless bubble caused by the Avatar, although they will not be able to pull off anything more than a solid victory due to attrition.

I played against a similar list with my pre-nerf IW and I was only able to to pull off a solid victory. The fearless aspect means you have to kill his units 100% to get the full VPs, so even having 1 dude hiding from shooting / melee means that you can only ever get 1/2 VPs from him.

sebster wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:Wait a minute. What is all this talk about Nids not being able to take down armor 14? Can't Nids take 3 Zopes with Warp Blast? Isn't Warp Blast str 10 at 18"? Since when is Str 10 weak? Monoliths have short range guns and cheap bugs can screen Zopes until they get in range. Besides all that, what's wrong with causing a Necron phase out to kill the Monolith?

As for Land Raiders, I don't think it was the Vennom Cannon that has kept the Land Raider out of the top lists. I think it is the enemy Lascannons, Meltaguns, Brightlances, etc... that keep Land Raiders off of the top table armies.

Zoanthropes are excellent, but experienced play has demonstrated they're unreliable AT at best. Having to close within 18" will force you out into the open, the 'thropes are pretty tough but will quickly perish to any opponent keen to kill them and protect his tanks. You're also a single shot BS 3 weapon, and vulnerable to enemy librarians. A list relying on zoanthropes for AT is likely to punished by any list fielding mutliple armour units.

Many Godzilla Nidz lists take 3 Zopes, 2 sniper fexes and at leat one venom cannon Tyrant. That's 5 units for anti-tank. Multiple armor units will not have a lot of armor 14 all around. Those multiple armor units will consist mostly of armor 10 in the back and assaults now target the enemy rear armor. Anything with an armor 10 in the back can be brought down by str 4 assaults (Genestealers, Raveners, boosted Hormagaunts) so armor 14 all around was the big problem. 18" range seems short except Monoliths have to get within 24" to do anything to you and that is one turns walking for a Zope to be in range. Zopes seem much more survivable if they are screened by 20-25 fearless 5pt spinegaunts. It appears only Monsterous creatures and Vehicles can get to them. But I'm not sure MC's won't be able to block LOS to anything behind them like they do now and Zopes once agains get their meat shield back.

Stingray_tm wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:Wait a minute. What is all this talk about Nids not being able to take down armor 14? Can't Nids take 3 Zopes with Warp Blast? Isn't Warp Blast str 10 at 18"? Since when is Str 10 weak? Monoliths have short range guns and cheap bugs can screen Zopes until they get in range. Besides all that, what's wrong with causing a Necron phase out to kill the Monolith?

It's not only about Liths. This is what i have to do in order to kill (or better: to penetrage) a Landraider with.

- get inside 18"
- don't screw up the pschic test
- don't get cancelled by Librarian
- hit on 4+
- penetrate on 4+

Now the whole army has three of those shots. That's less firepower than a single SM Devastator squad has.

With an 18" threat range and 12" deployment zones, the Zopes can reach any spot on the board by turn 3 with a concentrated Warp Blast. The psychic test is on leadership 10 and enemy librarians have a 34% chance to cancel the power each turn (less if the Tyrants have psychic scream and get close). Hitting and wounding is a dice roll, but you do have 3 Zopes and with screening by fearless Spinegaunts it is not unrealistic to expect all three get into range to shoot. I'm not saying they will bring down an armored company by turn 3, I'm just saying it is not as dire for the Bugs as it seems.

And we're only talking about Land Raider, Monoliths and Leman Russ Demolishers. Every other tank can be brought down in HtH from those rear atacks. Monoliths and Demolishers have generally short range weapons which bring them even closer to the Zopes and Land Raiders still are not seen regularly on the top tables so once you get out of round 1 with a win, the chances are you won't see one.

I agree with Darth. Zopes are going to get a huge boost with the new screening rules and probably will become a standard choice in bug armies in 5th.

Capt K

Mekboy wrote:I've heard that rending will change to be like the cyclic ion blaster. horray, now genestealers are way over pointed.

Perhaps. However, if screening by units really does come back into the game, we'll be able to screen them with Gaunts. I might not even bother with extended carapace then.

How are we going to take objectives? I dunno. I think the Tyranid plan is going to be wipe out the other guy's Troops and try to win on straight VPs.

jfrazell wrote:If we go back to the days of laser pointing LOS I'm out of here. The game sucketh much at that point.

I think it has something to do with units rather than individual bases.

The issue I see is speed, as far as tyranids are concerned. I searched all over warseer and here on dakka and I have yet to see where TMC's would gain the new March move ability.

I am under the current understanding that only small based sized and maybe terminator size models would be eligible for said move. If that is ture and the move rules out TMC's, then zilla nids get totally boned.

As far as their weaponry goes, what's the point of taking a venom cannon? Sure the barbed strangler is still useful against horde armies. In my current nid army, I went purist, so I don't have a unit of Zoe's and have had to reply on 4 venom cannons to get any anti-tank jobs done, even then it was with luck of the dice if I managed to get a destroyed tank on a glancing hit.

As it is in this current edition, movement is key for and against nid zilla. It can be incredibly frustrating to try and get the big guys close enough to my opponent to do the work that needs to be done.

A smart player in this new 5th edition might or might not use tanks first and foremost. If he does and he's facing nids, then he can just keep his tanks far enough away and just blast away.

I agree with Sebster and Stingray about Zoe's. They can be good for AT, but they are not the best and with the new glancing rules, you cannot get a vehicle destroyed hit with guns that you once could.

Unless in the next Tyranid codex, whenever that may come out, they allow venon cannons to get penetrating hits. But my suspicion is that with a new edition of the tyranid codex, the zilla list will no longer be viable. This just seems the way of GW.

Scudman Said:
"What I like about how PP does stuff is there is less waiting. Whenever an expansion comes out, everyone gets stuff. Ork players had to wait 9 years before they got a new codex. The witchhunters aren't even going to get a 4th edition codex. The idea of giving everything something new is an awesome way of alway keeping the game interesting. On top of that, rules questions gets taken care of quickly. I really hate how GW never takes care of rules issues, and when they do take care of rules issues, more problems crop up. I'm looking at you Tyranid FAQ..."

QFT...I like PP's way of putting out supplements. I would rather put out money for decent books, and fast up-to-date faqs, then wait for years for essentially a shoddy product with little or no support in terms of a faqs, that will become obsolete a short time later . I also like the fact that the customers can say and voice opinions to PP and that the creators listen and seem to care.

Again, my 2 pence,
Thanks,
Chappy P!

Tacobake wrote:

jfrazell wrote:If we go back to the days of laser pointing LOS I'm out of here. The game sucketh much at that point.

I think it has something to do with units rather than individual bases.

Like Fantasy? It would make it much easier if I only needed to poke out one of my crisis suits to fire if that's the case.

stonefox wrote:

Tacobake wrote:

jfrazell wrote:If we go back to the days of laser pointing LOS I'm out of here. The game sucketh much at that point.

I think it has something to do with units rather than individual bases.

Like Fantasy? It would make it much easier if I only needed to poke out one of my crisis suits to fire if that's the case.

from the first page of this thread.

LOS: I'm pretty sure that it's units that block LOS, so you shouldn't worry about spending 45 minutes drawing LOS from each individual trooper to each individual target. You draw LOS from the eyes of the model. Area terrain gives cover saves. There's an entire chapter on ruined buildings and how they affect line of sight (like a mini Cities of Death). I honestly don't remember if 6" of terrain blocks sight or not.

if I get what you're saying, you'd still have to move the entire squad. But you wouldn't have to worry about spaces between the screening models bases like was necessary in 3rd ed.

Kilkrazy wrote:You are quite right.

Whilst no-one is suggesting that the existing rumours are finished work, the past history of GW releases does not fill one with confidence that all the loose ends, ambiguities and unfortunate unexpectedly large effects will be wrapped up neatly in the finished product.

FWIW, it looks like the unfinished draft the Warseer poster was referring to has leaked to the web.

It does? I can't find it on Google. Send me a PM.

More stuff from Warseer: Link

Ok I have a copy of what I think is the same document (only had a quick browse)

The chart for missions says
1-2 = Recon
3-4= Take and Hold
5-6 = Total Anihiliation

Recon = You role for d3+2 objectives and if you have troops within 3" and the other guy doesnt at the end of the game, you hold that objective. The one with the most objectives wins.

Take and Hold = Is similar, except each player choses an objective within their deployment zone, not in impassible terrain, and not within 24" of the other objective.

Total Anihilation = Get 'Kill Points' for units destroyed or falling back. HQ=3pts. Fast, Heavy, Elite = 2pts Troops=1pt


Oh and later on its says VPs are used to decide draws. Units destroyed are worth their points, half strength units worth half their points. You need at least a 10% difference in VPs based on the points of the game to win (i.e. their example 1,500 points requres a 150 pints difference to register a win)

There is also a 'deployment' chart which I will put on in the morning (too tired) if someone else hasn't done it already. As noted earlier, only troops are scoring, except if falling back / it is a transport? / it has a specific rule saying it isn't scoring.

One funny thing about the deployment chart. One of the deployment types is called "Dawn of War"

I'm not liking the running thing. Yes some troops may need to cross the board fast but that's for transports. The fleet rule as far as I'm concered is to make some fast troops err fast - if everyone can run then arn't the just average then? I have always assumed that when a model is moving the maximum move (6") represents them runing. If you don't want to run then don't. If troops can run at 'possibly' 12 inches (just guessing, older games I played running was a second move) then why bother putting them in a transport? If you're playing an army that needs to get across the board then surely you should be looking at deep striking etc. Just don't like it myself.

As for the nids going back to swarms/footsloggers then fine by me! Comments were made in the 'should SM get strength increase', mostly by me, complaining that zillas get to your line and hack sah eat dribble etc. until your power armours massed up. After a few comments I came to the conclusion that fluff wise marines are fine, it's actually army composition that's wrong. Look at the artwork and stories - foot troops clearly outnumber anything else, there's 100's of them for each big tank/monster etc. Turning down the use of tanks/monsters gets my vote if the standard foot trooper becomes more 'valuable'. If it was that easy to field 3 carnifexs/2tyrants etc then where are they in the fluff? Bringing the balance back in favour of footsloggers to me is a v. good move.

But an army of 100 troops who can run olympic speed at the enemy? I may be wrong but isn't a 40K turn estimated at 6-10 seconds? That's a long way the standard trooper could run - across an uneven battle field while being under heavy fire. Keep it to 6" move and fleet for the rare faster troops I say. just my opinion

DarthDiggler wrote:Many Godzilla Nidz lists take 3 Zopes, 2 sniper fexes and at leat one venom cannon Tyrant. That's 5 units for anti-tank. Multiple armor units will not have a lot of armor 14 all around. Those multiple armor units will consist mostly of armor 10 in the back and assaults now target the enemy rear armor. Anything with an armor 10 in the back can be brought down by str 4 assaults (Genestealers, Raveners, boosted Hormagaunts) so armor 14 all around was the big problem. 18" range seems short except Monoliths have to get within 24" to do anything to you and that is one turns walking for a Zope to be in range. Zopes seem much more survivable if they are screened by 20-25 fearless 5pt spinegaunts. It appears only Monsterous creatures and Vehicles can get to them. But I'm not sure MC's won't be able to block LOS to anything behind them like they do now and Zopes once agains get their meat shield back.

You've changed your argument. People were commenting that 'nids will struggle to knock out AV14 if their glancing venom cannons were nerfed. You replied that the zoan's warp blast was fine. A few of us pointed out that zoan's limitations were considerable... I even recognised they're excellent units but not strong enough to rely on for AT by themselves.

You then changed your assertion, making zoan's part of 'nidzilla list with multiple 'fex and tyrants. Which is considerably different to your original assertion, and nonsensical in a conversation about 'nid AT when venom cannons are no longer effective.