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Well, that's the benefit of being able to have the final say in a rules argument and you run the tournament...you snuff it before it learns to walk.

wisdom like silence wrote:

FeindusMaximus wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:Nova's FAQ said that you do not need to roll to hit with JotWW.

Nice contradiction of the main rule book FAQ.

Not a FAQ contradiction... JOtWW has no effect on "hitting" so rolling to hit is pointless. The initiative test is triggered by being touched by the line drawn, not by being"hit".

really, in the SW codex JoWW is a pyskic shooting attack (read the profile). FAQ = all pyskic shooting attacks require you to roll to hit. Seems pretty straight forward to me.


I was really surprised when GW made this ruling . Arn't the space puppies the new FACE of the imperium (usurping Ultramar). Now the Rune Priest has to make 2d6 <10 and 3+ to hit to kill instant.

I am pretty sure everyone knows the rules. They just like forgetting some.

Congratulations Tony!

FeindusMaximus wrote:

really, in the SW codex JoWW is a pyskic shooting attack (read the profile). FAQ = all pyskic shooting attacks require you to roll to hit. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

There are several threads about it on YMMDC if you want to revisit THAT issue.


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KGatch113 wrote:
Completely wrong. Players end up taking the same lists because they can' t afford characters etc....you might see variations, but they are the same variations.

Why is that a bad thing? I'm sick of seeing same characters over and over again. Special characters are supposed to be special.

Backfire wrote:

KGatch113 wrote:
Completely wrong. Players end up taking the same lists because they can' t afford characters etc....you might see variations, but they are the same variations.

Why is that a bad thing? I'm sick of seeing same characters over and over again. Special characters are supposed to be special.

Special characters haven't really been anything special in a long time, most people just call them characters now. Some of them might be over the top in some people's view, but I would almost bet that many of them at the NOVA, and most events for that matter, are selected to open up certain army wide options (Crowe for Purifier troops, Belial for Deathwing, etc). While not all characters serve that purpose in an army, it has been the the game development staff has chosen to allow players to field those types of armies from the Fluff. Or at least approximations of them.

Blackmoor wrote:Tony won fair and square and props to him.

Another mistake I made was that I should have charged him with my paladin squad when he got out and rapid fired me. That would have slowed him down if I could have won the combat to deal with them. Instead I tried to run back to my objective.

I shot the scout squad because there was a good chance that we were going down to tie breakers and I was looking for easy kill points.

I did not move my Dreds to contest because Tony seemed unaware of the objectives and I did not want to draw his attention to them. Still they were pretty far away and I thought that he would have trouble getting to it.

I failed my assault into that rhino and I gave up shooting that squad to do it. The reason why I went after it was I needed the extra movement to go after Tony' objective. I was going after his so he would end up with the middle and the other objective. That way we can tie and go to kill points. That failed assault meant that I had to abort that plan because I did not have enough turns to get there and kill what needs killin'.

I really need to make my interceptors scoring so they could have held an objective. I also regret throwing them away, but at the time they seemed unnessisary.

Tony was making an ungodly number of armor saves. At one point he made 9/11 and then 11/11 all in a row. That pace (4 armor saves, 1 dies) was kept up all game long. I was waiting for the dice to turn, but they never did. When someone is hot like that there is little you can do. You just have to hope they screw up moving something.


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Mannahnin wrote:I think Tony won fair and square. But it is really odd that he doesn't know about such a clear and explicit ruling on his preferred HQ from his own FAQ. It's weird.

I agree with both sentiments. I would tend to quibble with the idea that Njalls Tempest power can only be understood from the FAQ. It says in the codex under Njall that the power only works for that game turn and the main rulebook defines a gameturn. With no FAQ whatsoever the rule is clear to follow. The FAQ was published to quell any wishful thinking at the time. Once again the NOVA had it's own faq and they could have changed the rule.

KGatch113 wrote:
Completely wrong. Players end up taking the same lists because they can' t afford characters etc....you might see variations, but they are the same variations.

Again, the game becomes vastly different...you might as well play chess.

I don't even know what you're trying to say with things like 'same variations'. And of course you can afford characters - there's no character in the game that costs more than 1500 pts.

In fact, you can afford anything at 1500. It's high enough that you can include what you need. It's not high enough that you can include everything you want, especially if you want 3 of everything. Which is why list-building is more of a challenge, and the meta becomes different.

Yes, different codices are more powerful at 1500 than the ones that are powerful at 2000. I'd argue that more of the codices are able to compete, which is a good thing.

Don't think that Tony's saves went unnoticed by me. I poured a to of shooting into his long fangs and he seemed to roll above average on saves. Then when I shot his grey hunters I could not kill anything. That is one of the reasons why I shot his scout squad was because psycannons can kill them easier.

If Tony did misapply the Tempest rule, then he should offer to give back the trophy. That simple. That's sportsmanship. That's how you PROVE you were not cheating. That's how you discourage other people from cheating in the future. That's how you avoid having a tainted, asterisked win.

Knowing your Codex and the FAQ is fundamental to playing the game, friendly or tournament. The SW Codex FAQ seems directly on point here.

It is so different from a blown call in a football game that I won't debate it. Let me just point out that there is a commercial on television where a player in a basketball game corrects a call on a tip out of bounds. This should be the same.

I hope that Tony will be the real winner, acknowledge his mistake, and make the offer.


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could someone post Blackmoor's list? I'm going shopping today.....

Relic_OMO wrote:

KGatch113 wrote:
Completely wrong. Players end up taking the same lists because they can' t afford characters etc....you might see variations, but they are the same variations.

Again, the game becomes vastly different...you might as well play chess.

I don't even know what you're trying to say with things like 'same variations'. And of course you can afford characters - there's no character in the game that costs more than 1500 pts.

In fact, you can afford anything at 1500. It's high enough that you can include what you need. It's not high enough that you can include everything you want, especially if you want 3 of everything. Which is why list-building is more of a challenge, and the meta becomes different.

Yes, different codices are more powerful at 1500 than the ones that are powerful at 2000. I'd argue that more of the codices are able to compete, which is a good thing.

You take a 1500 point list and add say, Vulkan. Your list is now vastly different. And it is at 1690. Throw in a couple of speeders and a dreadnought and you are at 1850. The amount of time you save playing as opposed to a straight 1500 is negligble.

By same variations I mean someone's list will have the same core units, maybe with landspeeders or attack bikes. But in essence, the armies tend to be the same. At 1850+ you can afford a character without lowering the ability of your army. a 1500 point list with Marneus is not as powerful as the same list with 250 or so points spent on extra troops. An 1850 list is.

As pointed out elsewhere, you need expensive characters to open up army traits. As I have just shown, 200 points spent on a character means most armies are actually close to being 1500 points. By lowering the points of a tournament, you get rid of the diversity characters bring.

As for the chestnut about other places playing 1500, I've seen numerous posts of people who are....jealous...at the US allowing higher points.

Finally, and again I'll make this point...at 1850 almost all of the armies are competitive. At 1500 you leave a larger number of armies at home.

Still recovering, but, the GT had no cash prize. Just a plaque and a few goodies.

We ref the Invitational games, but for fairness it's on a player to call in a judge on a rules question.

Allan and Tony seemed to have a great game, judging by the bits I was able to actually observe.

Ended 4-4 with Daemons, and 2-3 in the Invitational. Got a total of 5 Grey Knights players, beat one, lost to the rest. Also lost to DE venom spam after getting the wrong wave, mishapping half my army, and getting torrented of the board. Also had atleast two games where, the first shots of the game, caused 2 saves on Fateweaver, failed both, re-roll, failed both, leadership check, double 6's. Doh. Had fun though

I went 3/5 but had a really good time. Would I have enjoyed it more if I hadn't had to play GK 4 times? You bet.

And I can't fault anyone for making a mistake in game play after that many hours. Should he have known his own rules well enough to know he was wrong? Certainly, but we all make mistakes when we're so tired we can barely remember our own names.

Congrats to Tony on the win. Blackmoor, you are a true class act by taking your loss gracefully and complimenting on the winner. That was a tough loss.

My list:
Draigo
Libby w/shrouding, might of titan, quicksilver, santuary

10 Paladins w/brotherhood banner, 4 psycannons (1mc), 3 swords (1mc), 4 halberds (1mc), 2 hammers

6 GK Strike Squad

10 GK Intercepters w/2 psycannons, psybolt ammo, justicar w/mc demonhammer

3 psyflemen dreds

That is it. 31 models that fit very nicely in a suitcase w/5 days of clothes so I did not have to check my luggage

A few notes about it:
When the paladins don't combat squad they are the feathered from hell. They are where other deathstars go to die.

The strikes were worthless and just were there to fill up a troop spot. They just hung back in games and sat on an objective. I tried to make them a 10 man unit but I just did not have the points. That is one of my big advantages is that you can combat squad so you can change your number of units depending on what kind of mission you are playing.

My strategy was to win KP missions. If KP was the first objective it is an easy win. If it was table quarters and KP was the second objective I can hold 2 table quarters very easily and contest and then win on KP. If it was objectives first, and KP second then I wanted to hold 2 objectives and contest one and win on KPs. My biggest weakness is in missions where it has KPs last because it is hard for me to hold both table quarters and objectives at the same time because I do not have the units for that. That is why I knew I was in trouble going in to the final round when I was looking at the missions the day before.

mikeguth wrote:If Tony did misapply the Tempest rule, then he should offer to give back the trophy. .

I think that's to much and it doesn't need to go that far. All this scrutiny is directly because of the camera at the table. That's what had to go.

Blackmoor - I've played with that Paladin list (similar) a bunch of times and finally had to let it go. It became to hard to keep enemy GK's from getting the charge on my Paladins, especially when they are coming out of a LR or Stormraven. Maybe I'm the only one who would put 10 Purifiers and grenades in a Stormraven, but that unit just owned my Paladins. You are a better man than I that you were able to avoid that mess.

I will agree you should have been able to torrent his units off the table. Paladins don't always need to assault to be effective. 16 psycannon shots on the move is damn deadly enough in it's own right.. Add in the 3 dreads and some pot shots from the strikes and interceptors and you have a hell of a shooty list you can spring on people.

I think it is safe to say that in all of the years I have been wargaming (20 or so) that the number of games where NO major rules botches took place can be counted comfortably on one hand. It happens all the time. I guarantee that it happened in every game that didn't happen to be on camera. It is just the nature of the beast.

mikeguth wrote:It is so different from a blown call in a football game that I won't debate it.

I think you missed the main point of that post.

Blown calls were an example of how any competition involves a certain element of human error, and all of the cheating accusations in this thread are silly and unnecessary.

To all the people that say never have your game taped and streaming is bad bla bla bla. I had a blast watching the tourney. I think what needs to happen is on day 2 top table need a ref for the day. Not a Jude a Ref like in the invitational. Having these games broadcast can only help the hobby and game play not hurt it. Look in Golf people on TV call in and report rules violations and people get docked strokes all the time. When you are playing for money pries=$ you are going to come under more scrutiny. I think this can only be good. There will be growing pains with this but the simple fact was people that wanted to go to the NOVA that couldn't got to watch it on tv follow there friends, bloggers and Podcasters. So I say the more coverage the better.

A lot of people think that paladins are an assault unit but they are both assault and a shooty unit.

My worst match- up is grey knights. I played against 3 over the weekend and 2 of them had storm ravens. I hate mindstrke missiles, and since they are faster they get the charge and with stupid psych- out grenades I am in trouble.

Blackmoor wrote:A lot of people think that paladins are an assault unit but they are both assault and a shooty unit.

My worst match- up is grey knights. I played against 3 over the weekend and 2 of them had storm ravens. I hate mindstrke missiles, and since they are faster they get the charge and with stupid psych- out grenades I am in trouble.

What made you ultimately decide to go all foot in your list? Do you feel that this type of list is and should be slogging, or are you just catering to a playstyle that you feel more comfortable with?

I agree with you that the worst matchup for this sort of list is another GK army...and with the lack of mobility inherent in a footslogging list, it can be hard to dodge an assault as you said.

Glad to see you do very well with it though. =]

Were the streams of these games archived, and if so where could a person find them? I work nights and was unable to watch :(


Congratulations on your results, Blackmoor! Hopefully we'll get to play again sometime (maybe not a kp mission )!

Congrats Blackmoor, maybe well see each other at the Smackdown. I was unable to attend but watching the live feed made me feel better about it (I think taping these things is great and interesting to watch).

@Russ, the streaming site link at the begining of this thread has all the games on there to watch.

Blackmoor wrote:A few notes about it:
When the paladins don't combat squad they are the feathered from hell. They are where other deathstars go to die.

The strikes were worthless and just were there to fill up a troop spot. They just hung back in games and sat on an objective. I tried to make them a 10 man unit but I just did not have the points. That is one of my big advantages is that you can combat squad so you can change your number of units depending on what kind of mission you are playing.

My strategy was to win KP missions. If KP was the first objective it is an easy win. If it was table quarters and KP was the second objective I can hold 2 table quarters very easily and contest and then win on KP. If it was objectives first, and KP second then I wanted to hold 2 objectives and contest one and win on KPs. My biggest weakness is in missions where it has KPs last because it is hard for me to hold both table quarters and objectives at the same time because I do not have the units for that. That is why I knew I was in trouble going in to the final round when I was looking at the missions the day before.

This explanation was awesome, and really helps me understand your list / strategy more.

Blackmoor wrote:
The strikes were worthless and just were there to fill up a troop spot. They just hung back in games and sat on an objective. I tried to make them a 10 man unit but I just did not have the points.

You thinking about going back to the Troop Terminators?

It really was interesting to watch your games, the running diatribe was excellent.

By the way, if Tony made a mistake on the rules it is no big deal. I made a mistake about the psychic hood and aegis (it had never come up before because nobody has offensive psychic powers anymore). If I had not looked it up and asked a judge to confirm it I would be getting murdered today.

I lost the game only because I did not make my Intercepters troops so they could shunt back to my objective that had no one on it.

@Blackmoor:

Thanks for posting the list, and good job in the tourney. I've always been a fan of minimized killpoints for an advantage, and having KP in every mission just helps that. Too bad about all those saves...

@MVBrandt:

Thanks for the clarification of the prizes for the open, obviously a lot of our griping was about something not real. It looks like you ran a really great event, I've never flown or even really made a long drive for an event before but suddenly I'm interested.

Why did I choose that army?

There are a lot of reasons why. I like small durable armies like my thousand sons army I played all through 3rd edition. I also like to stay away from all of the common builds and try different things. Since everyone plays with either Crowe or Coteaz, I want to try Draigo. That is why in 4th edition I played foot Eldar when everyone played mech eldar.

I will be retiring my grey knights soon because there are a million GKs running around and I do not want to add to the problem. That is why I have thousand of points of SW that no one has ever seen. So it is on to demons (tzeentch for life baby!!!)

atta boy blackmoor. more daemons the better. wow that's really weird, last night I started writing up a tzeentch list to counter the current builds.