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Edit: and serious applause for Paul's speeches on blowback! Between the book Charlie Wilson's War, a couple others on that time period and some of the Ron Paul material on US interference with the middle east in the 80s it seems pretty clear to me that we definitely stuck our foot in the hornet's nest long before the Gulf War.


As much as he got right he also got wrong. He made many, many different and often times contradictory predictions on U.S. foreign policy. To consider him an oracle on such topics is a bit disingenuous. It's easy to be selective with what he was saying 30 years on and act like he knew what was going down, but by that same token the united states went through two periods of economic and plural prosperity during that time period and violence in the world has dropped year over year for half a century.

Who knows if he was actually right or if his policies would have just made things even worse. Hindsight is only 20/20 when you can actually see behind you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 00:16:29


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This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Spoiler:
whembly wrote:
d-usa wrote:I am really glad Obama invented the teleprompter.

okay... that's pretty funny.

In regards to Biden's gaffe recently... I didn't think it was a gaffe per se. But, he does says some funny stuff.

We need some levity here... the best gaffes is in sports... particularly the Cardinals' beloved broadcaster Mike Shannon... I dub these, Shannonisms:
Broadcasting from New York under a full moon:
"I wish you folks back in St. Louis could see this moon."

Referring to Japanese pitching sensation Hideo Nomo:
"He's is the biggest thing to hit Japan since they dropped that bomb on Nagashima!"

Referring to a questionable ruling by the official scorer:
"Well, no one’s perfect. Only one guy was ever perfect, Jack, and they nailed him to a tree!"

Referrinng to ex-Cardinals outfielder Bernard Gilkey:
"Gilkey was originally born in University City."
"He's faster than a chicken being chased by Ronald McDonald!"

Referring to Mike Schmidt:
"...the longtime, and soon-to-be, Hall-of-Famer."

Referring to a Home Run by Ted Simmons:
"Well, that's the bread on Simmons's butter."

Broadcasting the day before Easter:
"I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah."

When the Cubs' Derrick Lee took 2nd base late in the game without a throw from the Cardinals' catcher:
"Lee runs into second...they'll just let him go. They call that runner's indifference...or something like that. Hah. "

Urging Scott Rolen to take a pitch on 3-0:
"You don't kick that dog as he's sleeping on the porch, you don't step on his tail, you just walk on by. If you step on his tail, he might jump up and bite you on the ankle or the kneecap."

Talking about a road game in Montreal:
"This game is moving along pretty quick, it must have something to do with the exchange rate."

Referring to a young fan who was hit with a foul ball:
"And that youngster will leave the stadium with a souvenir today. Not a ball, but a nice looking bruise."

After closer Jason Isringhausen lost his command of the strike zone:
"Izzy's like a wild hare in March, running all over the lot!"

Referring to the Busch Stadium organist:
"Ernie Hayes is up there playing with his organ.”

After a batter leading off the ninth inning with his team down by three took a mighty swing but missed:
"He was trying to hit a three run homer with the bases empty. To my knowledge, no one in the history of the game has ever done that. But it could happen someday. You never know in this world of baseball."

After ex-Cardinals outfielder Brian Jordan was hit by a pitch for the fourth time on one road trip:
"Jordan must feel like a Ouija Board."

Referring to former manager Whitey Herzog:
"The key thing is, he has that photogenic mind."

While Mike and Joe were discussing unflattering photographs of players that had been flashed on the screen at another ballpark, Mike's take on the quality of the photo selection:
"Some of those guys look like the picture was taken while they were seeing their first UFO."
After several seconds of laughter, Joe adds:
"As opposed to their second or third."

The TV lights were on in the press box and the umpire stopped the game until they were turned off:
“The reason you can’t do that is the light will get in the fielder’s eyes and they’ll get hit right between the coconuts.”

CLASSIC SHANNON:

"Ole Abner has done it again."

"A hit up the middle right now would be like a nice ham sandwich and a cold, frosty one."

"Well, he did everything right to get ready for the throw, but if ya ain't got the hose, the water just won't come out."

"It's raining so hard I thought it was going to stop."

"I wouldn't have seen it if I hadn't believed it."

"He's madder than a pig caught under a barnyard gate."

"He ran to second faster than a cat in Chinatown."

"Well, folks, this game began as a tiny worm and is blossoming into a large cobra."

"Brad Penny...they should have named him half-a-dollar. Whoa he's big! Heh heh heh."
"It's raining like a Chinese fire drill!"

"Don't bite your head off to spite your nose."

"We owe you a station break, this one's for the folks listening in Paris...Tennessee. You thought I was going to say Paris... Kentucky! No such luck. Heh Heh Heh."

"A couple of strips of bacon at breakfast and he’d a busted that ball out of here."

"Like Spring makes the rain come, so does the edge of the plate grow."

"You know, these professional hitters make it look easy, sometimes they just stick the bat out and spank the baby!"

"Boy, a cold frosty Budweiser would be great about now. (Long pause) Ahhhhh."

"One run in this ballpark (Wrigley) is like a grain of salt in the Sahara Desert."

"Jeff Bagwell finally drove in a run after 75 at-bats without one. That's like crossing the Sahara.....Backwards!"

"GRAAAND SLAAAAAM! Nope nope nope, it's gonna be caught at the warning track."

"He’s bringing the ball up there 95 mph or better. It’s powder river. You like fastballs…munch on this."

"Everyone’s on a pitch count now, you people down on the farms don’t let major league baseball on your place or they will have the cows on a pitch count."

"So Taguchi, who wears number 99, unless you stand him upside down and then it’s 66."

"Well that’s the life of a reliever. It’s either a mountain or a valley, there’s no in-between. You either get all of the glory or all of the goat hair."

"Acevedo tried to sneak that pitch past Pujols on the inside corner. That’s like trying to sneak the sun past the rooster."





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jihadin wrote:
Wait till after Nov...then we'll calm down.


Then everybody worrying about stocking up for the coming collapse of the economy in the US. best start preparing. I remember...you only need 2K calories perday to survive. Over 3k calories if active shooting looters and raiders.

How many calories would I need dealing with Zombies


No comment on my "Shannonism"?? I am disappointz.

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USA

I mostly tend to ignore the long-winded quotes you give from conservative political spambots. They almost never have anything of substance or value tot hem.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/16 01:41:06


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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My blog
 
   
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Manchester, NH

He just gave a long list of quotes of a silly sports broadcaster who made a lot of gaffes.

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The Void

Personal views /= policy you desire implemented

ShumaGorath wrote:
Edit: and serious applause for Paul's speeches on blowback! Between the book Charlie Wilson's War, a couple others on that time period and some of the Ron Paul material on US interference with the middle east in the 80s it seems pretty clear to me that we definitely stuck our foot in the hornet's nest long before the Gulf War.


As much as he got right he also got wrong. He made many, many different and often times contradictory predictions on U.S. foreign policy. To consider him an oracle on such topics is a bit disingenuous. It's easy to be selective with what he was saying 30 years on and act like he knew what was going down, but by that same token the united states went through two periods of economic and plural prosperity during that time period and violence in the world has dropped year over year for half a century.

Who knows if he was actually right or if his policies would have just made things even worse. Hindsight is only 20/20 when you can actually see behind you.


I hardly consider him an Oracle, or think he's got the right answer 100% of the time, he could very well be wrong in many cases. That said I think he's got a clearer view of the picture in the middle east then most do at present.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 01:44:40


I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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KalashnikovMarine wrote:Personal views /= policy you desire implemented


That's cognitive dissonance.

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USA

Not really, no.

After all, one can hold a personal view but believe that it should not be enforced by law.

For example, I hold the personal view that homophobic views are disgusting and hateful and that those who spout them should be ignored, but that doesn't mean I want curtail freedom of speech.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 01:49:09


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
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KalashnikovMarine wrote:Personal views /= policy you desire implemented

ShumaGorath wrote:
Edit: and serious applause for Paul's speeches on blowback! Between the book Charlie Wilson's War, a couple others on that time period and some of the Ron Paul material on US interference with the middle east in the 80s it seems pretty clear to me that we definitely stuck our foot in the hornet's nest long before the Gulf War.


As much as he got right he also got wrong. He made many, many different and often times contradictory predictions on U.S. foreign policy. To consider him an oracle on such topics is a bit disingenuous. It's easy to be selective with what he was saying 30 years on and act like he knew what was going down, but by that same token the united states went through two periods of economic and plural prosperity during that time period and violence in the world has dropped year over year for half a century.

Who knows if he was actually right or if his policies would have just made things even worse. Hindsight is only 20/20 when you can actually see behind you.


I hardly consider him an Oracle, or think he's got the right answer 100% of the time, he could very well be wrong in many cases. That said I think he's got a clearer view of the picture in the middle east then most do at present.


Not given the kinds of things he's spouting off these days. He said AQ hit us because of the gulf war. That doesn't really line up with anything we know about history or AQ. The dudes a xenophobe, a lot of what he says sounds nice at face value but then when you look at the reasons he puts forth for his views they're plainly wrong. He was pretty up in his game once, but he's been in politics for half a century. He's gotten old and these days he's out of touch with the regional realities of the mideast and north africa.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:Not really, no.

After all, one can hold a personal view but believe that it should not be enforced by law.

For example, I hold the personal view that homophobic views are disgusting and hateful and that those who spout them should be ignored, but that doesn't mean I want curtail freedom of speech.


A personal view that gay marriage should be legal and supporting it's illegality is cognitive dissonance. Believing that it's immoral but that the legality of equality trumps moralism isn't. The first is a political and personal stance counter acting eachother, the second is a consistent personal view that expresses a logically flowing political view. You can't have a personal view be in confrontation with a political view without it being dissonant, you can only have a personal view that would lead via nuance to a counter acting political view because of consistent logic. Unfortunately your personal view in that case becomes consistent with your political one and thus doesn't fall under personal views =/policy.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/16 01:56:29


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The Void

I seem to remember sitting through more then a few intelligence briefs on AQ and that some of the "justifications" for their attacks involved continued US intervention in the middle east including the Gulf War/US Occupation of Saudi Arabia during the run up to said war.

So by your reckoning Shuma if I hold the personal view that abortion is abhorrent and if you're going to screw you should be ready to deal with the consequences (rape, medical, etc excluded) but I hold the political view that it's none of my business what anyone else does with their own body and vote pro-choice I'm being dissonant? Or am I misunderstanding the concept slightly?

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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I seem to remember sitting through more then a few intelligence briefs on AQ and that some of the "justifications" for their attacks involved continued US intervention in the middle east including the Gulf War/US Occupation of Saudi Arabia during the run up to said war.


Yeah, there are legitimate concerns about basing in SA as the proximity to holy locales is an oft stated concern of AQ, but that became a contentious issue after the gulf war and not a reaction to the war itself. The occupation of saudi arabian territories continued for 13 years after the gulf war. Given that a large majority of Kuwaits population is Sunni and Saddams Baath party was Shiite dominated (and an enemy of the groups that formed AQ in the 80s) their anger at the gulf war operations was at best quiet and meaningless. We assumed an awful lot of things for the first few years post 9/11. A lot of it was wrong.

So by your reckoning Shuma if I hold the personal view that abortion is abhorrent and if you're going to screw you should be ready to deal with the consequences (rape, medical, etc excluded) but I hold the political view that it's none of my business what anyone else does with their own body and vote pro-choice I'm being dissonant?


No, because your personal view is that its none of your business. Your political view is the one you advocate, the personal one is the culmination of competing interests. A man who votes to ban gay marriage because he's peer pressured into it is cognitively dissonant.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 02:17:39


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

@labmouse42: look at this:
http://voteview.com/Clinton_and_Obama.htm
This was done during the Democratic Primary '08. You'll see that Obama and H. Clinton has very similar voting records in the Senate. You'll see here that most Congressional Democrats are pulling hard to the left (just as the Republican to the right).

Especially look at the last graph (cant figure out how to insert that gif here).... see the trend? Both parties are pulling away from each other... and this is in '08! I'd bet a case a beer that it's even MORE profound now.

Back to the Prez... here's a list of 50 accomplishments from a Libertarian/Independent (neutral maybe?)site:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/march_april_2012/features/obamas_top_50_accomplishments035755.php

Spoiler:
1. Passed Health Care Reform: After five presidents over a century failed to create universal health insurance, signed the Affordable Care Act (2010). It will cover 32 million uninsured Americans beginning in 2014 and mandates a suite of experimental measures to cut health care cost growth, the number one cause of America’s long-term fiscal problems.

REALLY liberal - - socialism

2. Passed the Stimulus: Signed $787 billion American Recovery and Reinvestment Act in 2009 to spur economic growth amid greatest recession since the Great Depression. Weeks after stimulus went into effect, unemployment claims began to subside. Twelve months later, the private sector began producing more jobs than it was losing, and it has continued to do so for twenty-three straight months, creating a total of nearly 3.7 million new private-sector jobs.

REALLY liberal - - government is the answer to all your ailments.

3. Passed Wall Street Reform: Signed the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (2010) to re-regulate the financial sector after its practices caused the Great Recession. The new law tightens capital requirements on large banks and other financial institutions, requires derivatives to be sold on clearinghouses and exchanges, mandates that large banks provide “living wills” to avoid chaotic bankruptcies, limits their ability to trade with customers’ money for their own profit, and creates the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (now headed by Richard Cordray) to crack down on abusive lending products and companies.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention (but, to be fair, he didn't really champion this, he just "signed it").

4. Ended the War in Iraq: Ordered all U.S. military forces out of the country. Last troops left on December 18, 2011.

I wanted to leave when its the right time. I don't have a strong opinion as I don't have all the fact. The only thing that made me leery was that there were reports from Commanders on the ground protesting this withdrawl.

5. Began Drawdown of War in Afghanistan: From a peak of 101,000 troops in June 2011, U.S. forces are now down to 91,000, with 23,000 slated to leave by the end of summer 2012. According to Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, the combat mission there will be over by next year.

Same as #4.

6. Eliminated Osama bin laden: In 2011, ordered special forces raid of secret compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, in which the terrorist leader was killed and a trove of al-Qaeda documents was discovered.

It's an accomplishment in that he didn't get in the way... but, I ain't saying more.

7. Turned Around U.S. Auto Industry: In 2009, injected $62 billion in federal money (on top of $13.4 billion in loans from the Bush administration) into ailing GM and Chrysler in return for equity stakes and agreements for massive restructuring. Since bottoming out in 2009, the auto industry has added more than 100,000 jobs. In 2011, the Big Three automakers all gained market share for the first time in two decades. The government expects to lose $16 billion of its investment, less if the price of the GM stock it still owns increases.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention. Heavily favored unions.

Do you know the company Delphi Automotive PLC? They're subsideriary of GM... guess what Delphi Don't have? Right... they're a non-union establishment. So... guess what happened to those 20K non-union's Delphi worker's pension? Poof... gone. Guess where the $$$ went to? It went to Union's pension. (I got more info... just ask).

See a trend here?

8. Recapitalized Banks: In the midst of financial crisis, approved controversial Treasury Department plan to lure private capital into the country’s largest banks via “stress tests” of their balance sheets and a public-private fund to buy their “toxic” assets. Got banks back on their feet at essentially zero cost to the government.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention. What I highlighted... requires suspension of belief. o.O

9. Repealed “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”: Ended 1990s-era restriction and formalized new policy allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military for the first time.

Classical Liberal (or libitarian). I have no problem with this.

10. Toppled Moammar Gaddafi: In March 2011, joined a coalition of European and Arab governments in military action, including air power and naval blockade, against Gaddafi regime to defend Libyan civilians and support rebel troops. Gaddafi’s forty-two-year rule ended when the dictator was overthrown and killed by rebels on October 20, 2011. No American lives were lost.

TBH... I don't remember any leadership from Obama on this... (need to do some research on this)

11. Told Mubarak to Go: On February 1, 2011, publicly called on Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to accept reform or step down, thus weakening the dictator’s position and putting America on the right side of the Arab Spring. Mubarak ended thirty-year rule when overthrown on February 11.

TBH... I don't remember any leadership from Obama on this... (need to do some research on this) Wasn't he on his way out anyway??

12. Reversed Bush Torture Policies: Two days after taking office, nullified Bush-era rulings that had allowed detainees in U.S. custody to undergo certain “enhanced” interrogation techniques considered inhumane under the Geneva Conventions. Also released the secret Bush legal rulings supporting the use of these techniques.

Moderate - - and quite frankly, this is another topic that deserves its own thread.

13. Improved America’s Image Abroad: With new policies, diplomacy, and rhetoric, reversed a sharp decline in world opinion toward the U.S. (and the corresponding loss of “soft power”) during the Bush years. From 2008 to 2011, favorable opinion toward the United States rose in ten of fifteen countries surveyed by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, with an average increase of 26 percent.

Liberal/Leftist seems to care about this. I really don't fething care what other nations think of us... and frankly, for those that don't like us, why are we sending aid/grants (looking at you Egypt).

14. Kicked Banks Out of Federal Student Loan Program, Expanded Pell Grant Spending: As part of the 2010 health care reform bill, signed measure ending the wasteful decades-old practice of subsidizing banks to provide college loans. Starting July 2010 all students began getting their federal student loans directly from the federal government. Treasury will save $67 billion over ten years, $36 billion of which will go to expanding Pell Grants to lower-income students.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention.

15. Created Race to the Top: With funds from stimulus, started $4.35 billion program of competitive grants to encourage and reward states for education reform.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention. "I'm from the government... all your educations belong to us" Don't get me started on this...

16. Boosted Fuel Efficiency Standards: Released new fuel efficiency standards in 2011 that will nearly double the fuel economy for cars and trucks by 2025.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention.

17. Coordinated International Response to Financial Crisis: To keep world economy out of recession in 2009 and 2010, helped secure from G-20 nations more than $500 billion for the IMF to provide lines of credit and other support to emerging market countries, which kept them liquid and avoided crises with their currencies.

Not sure what to think here... need moar research.

18. Passed Mini Stimuli: To help families hurt by the recession and spur the economy as stimulus spending declined, signed series of measures (July 22, 2010; December 17, 2010; December 23, 2011) to extend unemployment insurance and cut payroll taxes.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention.

19. Began Asia “Pivot”: In 2011, reoriented American military and diplomatic priorities and focus from the Middle East and Europe to the Asian-Pacific region. Executed multipronged strategy of positively engaging China while reasserting U.S. leadership in the region by increasing American military presence and crafting new commercial, diplomatic, and military alliances with neighboring countries made uncomfortable by recent Chinese behavior.

What happened here? Legit question...

20. Increased Support for Veterans: With so many soldiers coming home from Iraq and Iran with serious physical and mental health problems, yet facing long waits for services, increased 2010 Department of Veterans Affairs budget by 16 percent and 2011 budget by 10 percent. Also signed new GI bill offering $78 billion in tuition assistance over a decade, and provided multiple tax credits to encourage businesses to hire veterans.

Moderate - - Have no prob with this... shoot, if theres ANY group on U.S.of A. that needs attention, it's the veterans.

21. Tightened Sanctions on Iran: In effort to deter Iran’s nuclear program, signed Comprehensive Iran Sanctions, Accountability, and Divestment Act (2010) to punish firms and individuals who aid Iran’s petroleum sector. In late 2011 and early 2012, coordinated with other major Western powers to impose sanctions aimed at Iran’s banks and with Japan, South Korea, and China to shift their oil purchases away from Iran.

Moderate - - no complaints here...

22. Created Conditions to Begin Closing Dirtiest Power Plants: New EPA restrictions on mercury and toxic pollution, issued in December 2011, likely to lead to the closing of between sixty-eight and 231 of the nation’s oldest and dirtiest coal-fired power plants. Estimated cost to utilities: at least $11 billion by 2016. Estimated health benefits: $59 billion to $140 billion. Will also significantly reduce carbon emissions and, with other regulations, comprises what’s been called Obama’s “stealth climate policy.”

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention. Job destroyer dept. My bro works in the engineer/oil industry... it's fething nuts.

23. Passed Credit Card Reforms: Signed the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure Act (2009), which prohibits credit card companies from raising rates without advance notification, mandates a grace period on interest rate increases, and strictly limits overdraft and other fees.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention. (not necessarily a bad thing tho)

24. Eliminated Catch-22 in Pay Equality Laws: Signed Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act in 2009, giving women who are paid less than men for the same work the right to sue their employers after they find out about the discrimination, even if that discrimination happened years ago. Under previous law, as interpreted by the Supreme Court in Ledbetter v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co., the statute of limitations on such suits ran out 180 days after the alleged discrimination occurred, even if the victims never knew about it.

Moderate - - not sure what to think of this... this look good, but whenever Mr. Govenment is involved I'm worried that we're on the perverbial slippery slope.

25. Protected Two Liberal Seats on the U.S. Supreme Court: Nominated and obtained confirmation for Sonia Sotomayor, the first Hispanic and third woman to serve, in 2009; and Elena Kagan, the fourth woman to serve, in 2010. They replaced David Souter and John Paul Stevens, respectively.

REALLY liberal

26. Improved Food Safety System: In 2011, signed FDA Food Safety Modernization Act, which boosts the Food and Drug Administration’s budget by $1.4 billion and expands its regulatory responsibilities to include increasing number of food inspections, issuing direct food recalls, and reviewing the current food safety practices of countries importing products into America.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention.

27. Achieved New START Treaty: Signed with Russia (2010) and won ratification in Congress (2011) of treaty that limits each country to 1,550 strategic warheads (down from 2,200) and 700 launchers (down from more than 1,400), and reestablished and strengthened a monitoring and transparency program that had lapsed in 2009, through which each country can monitor the other.

REALLY liberal - - Isn't this the one where we gave up on building a radar installation in Europe?

28. Expanded National Service: Signed Serve America Act in 2009, which authorized a tripling of the size of AmeriCorps. Program grew 13 percent to 85,000 members across the country by 2012, when new House GOP majority refused to appropriate more funds for further expansion.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention.

29. Expanded Wilderness and Watershed Protection: Signed Omnibus Public Lands Management Act (2009), which designated more than 2 million acres as wilderness, created thousands of miles of recreational and historic trails, and protected more than 1,000 miles of rivers.

REALLY liberal - - I don't mind these kinds of things, but it's more regulation...

30. Gave the FDA Power to Regulate Tobacco: Signed the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (2009). Nine years in the making and long resisted by the tobacco industry, the law mandates that tobacco manufacturers disclose all ingredients, obtain FDA approval for new tobacco products, and expand the size and prominence of cigarette warning labels, and bans the sale of misleadingly labeled “light” cigarette brands and tobacco sponsorship of entertainment events.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention.

31. Pushed Federal Agencies to Be Green Leaders: Issued executive order in 2009 requiring all federal agencies to make plans to soften their environmental impacts by 2020. Goals include 30 percent reduction in fleet gasoline use, 26 percent boost in water efficiency, and sustainability requirements for 95 percent of all federal contracts. Because federal government is the country’s single biggest purchaser of goods and services, likely to have ripple effects throughout the economy for years to come.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention.

32. Passed Fair Sentencing Act: Signed 2010 legislation that reduces sentencing disparity between crack versus powder cocaine possessionfrom100 to1 to 18 to1.

What??

33. Trimmed and Reoriented Missile Defense: Cut the Reagan-era “Star Wars” missile defense budget, saving $1.4 billion in 2010, and canceled plans to station antiballistic missile systems in Poland and the Czech Republic in favor of sea-based defense plan focused on Iran and North Korea.

Not sure what to think... I think this was an honest attempt to recalibrate the forces towards current threats (rogue state). I might've done things differently, but I wouldn't know where it would fall in the political spectrum.

34. Began Post-Post-9/11 Military Builddown: After winning agreement from congressional Republicans and Democrats in summer 2011 budget deal to reduce projected defense spending by $450 billion, proposed new DoD budget this year with cuts of that size and a new national defense strategy that would shrink ground forces from 570,000 to 490,000 over the next ten years while increasing programs in intelligence gathering and cyberwarfare.

REALLY liberal - - Big Military... BAD.

35. Let Space Shuttle Die and Killed Planned Moon Mission: Allowed the expensive ($1 billion per launch), badly designed, dangerous shuttle program to make its final launch on July 8, 2011. Cut off funding for even more bloated and problem-plagued Bush-era Constellation program to build moon base in favor of support for private-sector low-earth orbit ventures, research on new rocket technologies for long-distance manned flight missions, and unmanned space exploration, including the largest interplanetary rover ever launched, which will investigate Mars’s potential to support life.

???

36. Invested Heavily in Renewable Technology: As part of the 2009 stimulus, invested $90 billion, more than any previous administration, in research on smart grids, energy efficiency, electric cars, renewable electricity generation, cleaner coal, and biofuels.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention. Solyndra anyone?

37. Crafting Next-Generation School Tests: Devoted $330 million in stimulus money to pay two consortia of states and universities to create competing versions of new K-12 student performance tests based on latest psychometric research. New tests could transform the learning environment in vast majority of public school classrooms beginning in 2014.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention. No... just... No.

38. Cracked Down on Bad For-Profit Colleges: In effort to fight predatory practices of some for-profit colleges, Department of Education issued “gainful employment” regulations in 2011 cutting off commercially focused schools from federal student aid funding if more than 35 percent of former students aren’t paying off their loans and/or if the average former student spends more than 12 percent of his or her total earnings servicing student loans.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention. Really bad way to tackle this problem...

39. Improved School Nutrition: In coordination with Michelle Obama, signed Healthy Hunger-Free Kids Act in 2010 mandating $4.5 billion spending boost and higher nutritional and health standards for school lunches. New rules based on the law, released in January, double the amount of fruits and vegetables and require only whole grains in food served to students.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention.

40. Expanded Hate Crimes Protections: Signed Hate Crimes Prevention Act (2009), which expands existing hate crime protections to include crimes based on a victim’s sexual orientation, gender, or disability, in addition to race, color, religion, or national origin.

REALLY liberal - - gah... Hate Crimes... I hate that.

41. Avoided Scandal: As of November 2011, served longer than any president in decades without a scandal, as measured by the appearance of the word “scandal” (or lack thereof) on the front page of the Washington Post.

Uh... really? o.O I can think of plenty of "scandals".

42. Brokered Agreement for Speedy Compensation to Victims of Gulf Oil Spill: Though lacking statutory power to compel British Petroleum to act, used moral authority of his office to convince oil company to agree in 2010 to a $20 billion fund to compensate victims of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico; $6.5 billion already paid out without lawsuits. By comparison, it took nearly two decades for plaintiffs in the Exxon Valdez Alaska oil spill case to receive $1.3 billion.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention.

43. Created Recovery.gov: Web site run by independent board of inspectors general looking for fraud and abuse in stimulus spending, provides public with detailed information on every contract funded by $787 billion American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Thanks partly to this transparency, board has uncovered very little fraud, and Web site has become national model: “The stimulus has done more to promote transparency at almost all levels of government than any piece of legislation in recent memory,” reports Governing magazine.

REALLY liberal - -Wait... what?

44. Pushed Broadband Coverage: Proposed and obtained in 2011 Federal Communications Commission approval for a shift of $8 billion in subsidies away from landlines and toward broadband Internet for lower-income rural families.

Dunno enought to have an opinion.

45. Expanded Health Coverage for Children: Signed 2009 Children’s Health Insurance Authorization Act, which allows the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) to cover health care for 4 million more children, paid for by a tax increase on tobacco products.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention. Really... a tax on ciggies to fund CHIP? This is an illusion... there's no trust fund or "bank account" for CHIP programs. They all come from the state's general funds. Next time someone complains about your smoking... just say " but, it's for the childrens".

46. Recognized the Dangers of Carbon Dioxide: In 2009, EPA declared carbon dioxide a pollutant, allowing the agency to regulate its production.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention.

47. Expanded Stem Cell Research: In 2009, eliminated the Bush-era restrictions on embryonic stem cell research, which shows promise in treating spinal injuries, among many other areas.

REALLY liberal - - more government intervention. Misleading too... (adult stem cells show far more promise).

48. Provided Payment to Wronged Minority Farmers: In 2009, signed Claims Resolution Act, which provided $4.6 billion in funding for a legal settlement with black and Native American farmers who the government cheated out of loans and natural resource royalties in years past.

Not sure if this was legit... first time I've seen this (not necessarily in this case, but this can be an example of "social justice" that Obama expouses).

49. Helped South Sudan Declare Independence: Helped South Sudan Declare Independence: Appointed two envoys to Sudan and personally attended a special UN meeting on the area. Through U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Ambassador Susan Rice, helped negotiate a peaceful split in 2011.

don't know enough to comment (I thought they're still fighting a civil war here?)

50. Killed the F-22: In 2009, ended further purchases of Lockheed Martin single-seat, twin-engine, fighter aircraft, which cost $358 million apiece. Though the military had 187 built, the plane has never flown a single combat mission. Eliminating it saved $4 billion.

REALLY liberal - - Big Military... bad whembly, bad! (honestly, I'm actually okay with this, but wished he kept the $$$ within the DoD for other things, like more Strykers )


So... in MY OPINION... I do not consider him anywhere near "a moderate".

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Just to pick out one piece of nonsense (out of many), how the hell is credit card reform which was passed unanimously by both parties REALLY LIBERAL?

Do you roll up pictures of hannity and smoke them? This is red koolaid of a variety I so rarely get to witness.

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Melissia wrote:I mostly tend to ignore the long-winded quotes you give from conservative political spambots. They almost never have anything of substance or value tot hem.

conservative political spambots?

Um... okay.

I do regret one thing posting that long-winded quotes: That's on the First Lady... I think she's a classy lady and deserves respect.

As for the other stuff... I was mere pointing out that yes I question his character based on his repeated past associations. TBH... I never really thought about 'em during '08 election cycle as I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt (okay, I can give him a hard time being a Chicagoan... down with Bears/Cubs/Soxs/Hawks!!! ).

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I'd like to say on #4 that the Iraq pull out date was the Bush administration, Obama just upheld it.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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KalashnikovMarine wrote:I'd like to say on #4 that the Iraq pull out date was the Bush administration, Obama just upheld it.


Half his list can be attributed to other people or isn't a partisan issue. The list itself is a joke.

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ShumaGorath wrote:Just to pick out one piece of nonsense (out of many), how the hell is credit card reform which was passed unanimously by both parties REALLY LIBERAL?

Simple.

What's the first response to when there's a problem?
Lefty - what can government do to fix this? In a lot of case, the heart is in the right place but often can have unintended consequences: Case in point:
http://www.openmarket.org/2012/06/05/a-liberal-war-on-women-new-law-keeps-many-homemakers-from-qualifying-for-credit-cards/

Righty - Can market pressure fix this?
To be honest, I have no idea of regular market pressure could've done what that ACT was intended.

Do you roll up pictures of hannity and smoke them? This is red koolaid of a variety I so rarely get to witness.

No... I steal them from RUSH! I keed, I keed...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:I'd like to say on #4 that the Iraq pull out date was the Bush administration, Obama just upheld it.

Didn't Obama accelerated the withdrawl?
Edit: nope, was wrong... on schedule

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ShumaGorath wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:I'd like to say on #4 that the Iraq pull out date was the Bush administration, Obama just upheld it.


Half his list can be attributed to other people or isn't a partisan issue. The list itself is a joke.

Hmmmm... was trying to pull a non-partisan site list together...

Do you have one? I'll comment it (giving you the rare juicy red color you so want! )

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/16 02:57:47


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Simple.

What's the first response to when there's a problem?
Lefty - what can government do to fix this? In a lot of case, the heart is in the right place but often can have unintended consequences: Case in point:
http://www.openmarket.org/2012/06/05/a-liberal-war-on-women-new-law-keeps-many-homemakers-from-qualifying-for-credit-cards/

Righty - Can market pressure fix this?
To be honest, I have no idea of regular market pressure could've done what that ACT was intended.


Except that didn't happen and you're just structuring the world to suit your ill conceived and poorly supported views rather than using the world as the basis for them.

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ShumaGorath wrote:
Simple.

What's the first response to when there's a problem?
Lefty - what can government do to fix this? In a lot of case, the heart is in the right place but often can have unintended consequences: Case in point:
http://www.openmarket.org/2012/06/05/a-liberal-war-on-women-new-law-keeps-many-homemakers-from-qualifying-for-credit-cards/

Righty - Can market pressure fix this?
To be honest, I have no idea of regular market pressure could've done what that ACT was intended.


Except that didn't happen and you're just structuring the world to suit your ill conceived and poorly supported views rather than using the world as the basis for them.

? What didn't happen? The unintended consequences?

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whembly wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Simple.

What's the first response to when there's a problem?
Lefty - what can government do to fix this? In a lot of case, the heart is in the right place but often can have unintended consequences: Case in point:
http://www.openmarket.org/2012/06/05/a-liberal-war-on-women-new-law-keeps-many-homemakers-from-qualifying-for-credit-cards/

Righty - Can market pressure fix this?
To be honest, I have no idea of regular market pressure could've done what that ACT was intended.


Except that didn't happen and you're just structuring the world to suit your ill conceived and poorly supported views rather than using the world as the basis for them.

? What didn't happen? The unintended consequences?


The righty view on market pressure. It was a clear case of exploitative business practices and the right rallied behind reform. Political ideologies aren't intrinsically extremist like you seem to think. If they were the right would be trying to destroy government, but it isn't an anarchist movement and the left isn't trying to control what color shirts we wear.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 03:05:04


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ShumaGorath wrote:
Spoiler:
whembly wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Simple.

What's the first response to when there's a problem?
Lefty - what can government do to fix this? In a lot of case, the heart is in the right place but often can have unintended consequences: Case in point:
http://www.openmarket.org/2012/06/05/a-liberal-war-on-women-new-law-keeps-many-homemakers-from-qualifying-for-credit-cards/

Righty - Can market pressure fix this?
To be honest, I have no idea of regular market pressure could've done what that ACT was intended.


Except that didn't happen and you're just structuring the world to suit your ill conceived and poorly supported views rather than using the world as the basis for them.

? What didn't happen? The unintended consequences?


The righty view on market pressure. It was a clear case of exploitative business practices and the right rallied behind reform. Political ideologies aren't intrinsically extremist like you seem to think. If they were the right would be trying to destroy government, but it isn't an anarchist movement and the left isn't trying to control what color shirts we wear.

You're right... they're not.

In regards to the CC reform I don't really have a problem... but it's still intervention in the market place and invariably unfortunate things can happen.

I disagree on part of your statement.... there are those (lefty and righties)who do want to peverbally "control" what color shirts we wear. It's all about CONTROL. Shouldn't we be at least be cautious to any gov expansion/intervention?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 03:17:40


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DO what the Drazi do. Have two colors. One red and one blue. Fight it out

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whembly wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Spoiler:
whembly wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Simple.

What's the first response to when there's a problem?
Lefty - what can government do to fix this? In a lot of case, the heart is in the right place but often can have unintended consequences: Case in point:
http://www.openmarket.org/2012/06/05/a-liberal-war-on-women-new-law-keeps-many-homemakers-from-qualifying-for-credit-cards/

Righty - Can market pressure fix this?
To be honest, I have no idea of regular market pressure could've done what that ACT was intended.


Except that didn't happen and you're just structuring the world to suit your ill conceived and poorly supported views rather than using the world as the basis for them.

? What didn't happen? The unintended consequences?


The righty view on market pressure. It was a clear case of exploitative business practices and the right rallied behind reform. Political ideologies aren't intrinsically extremist like you seem to think. If they were the right would be trying to destroy government, but it isn't an anarchist movement and the left isn't trying to control what color shirts we wear.

You're right... they're not.

In regards to the CC reform I don't really have a problem... but it's still intervention in the market place and invariably unfortunate things can happen.

I disagree on part of your statement.... there are those (lefty and righties)who do want to peverbally "control" what color shirts we wear. It's all about CONTROL. Shouldn't we be at least be cautious to any gov expansion/intervention?


I like to keep my political views sane. I've seen and experienced enough paranoia for now, thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jihadin wrote:DO what the Drazi do. Have two colors. One red and one blue. Fight it out


Sunhawks were cool.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/16 03:44:27


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Yes, whembly, conservative spambots. You practically sound like one.

And frankly it really isn't worth my time to give anything more than a token amount of effort to respond to. Like this post here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 04:19:00


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Jihadin wrote:DO what the Drazi do. Have two colors. One red and one blue. Fight it out

Purple and green...
   
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Melissia wrote:Yes, whembly, conservative spambots. You practically sound like one.

DOES.NOT.COMPUTE.


I could say the same about you...

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Purple and green...


That was for the Drazi....we're amerikans

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Jihadin wrote:
Purple and green...


That was for the Drazi....we're amerikans


Ah, I see what you meant now. I thought you were saying the Drazi used red and blue.
   
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Now, I am admittedly no expert on Objectivism, but doesn't Rand advocate unfettered capitalism, survival of the fittest, and "not sacrificing yourself for any man nor asking any man to sacrifice for you"? And wouldn't voting for a 700 billion dollar bailout with taxpayer money... sort of completely go against that? Cuz that's what this guy did, no?

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Melissia wrote:That depends on the Obama campaign's ability to articulate how Ryan's cuts will hurt the middle class and such.


Not really. Because those cuts aren't going to happen if Romney gets elected, because Ryan is just the VP candidate.

The challenge is articulate how Ryan's cuts would hurt the middle class (fairly easy), and then use Ryan's selection as VP to articulate how Ryan's policy are reflective of the overal GOP and Romney (fairly hard).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AustonT wrote:I'm shy of 30. I also don't watch loads of television, never did. The Internet has somewhat addressed my relative ignorance of what goes on in television. But I can't say I'm particularly plugged in especially to notice a debate between Biden and Palin or *shudder* Cheney and Edwards on Cspan8.


To catch you up then

2008 Biden beat Palin, but not by as much as you'd think. She basically ran off a series of very lame catch phrases (say it ain't so, Jo) and played this silly game where if she had no idea what the question was asking she'd just ignore it and list some standard republican talking points. Because the debate format is rubbish, neither Biden or the moderators picked her up on this.
2004 Cheney monstered Edwards. Edwards was a lightweight nitwit who confused southern charm for actual policy knowledge, whereas whether you love him or hate him, Cheney is a heavyweight.
2000 was a horrendous snooze fest. Cheney repeated all the 'compassionate conservative' comments of Bush circa 2000, and no-one believed a word of it, but strangely no-noe realised they were complete lies either. Meanwhile Lieberman continued the Gore strategy of listing a dry series of facts giving the accomplishments of the Clinton presidency in the hope of appealing to the impartial intellectual observer. No-one on Earth remembers the debate, and I include Gore and Cheney in that.

1996 was before my time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 08:27:03


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

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whembly wrote:His bill doesn't go FAR enough. Did you know that overall government spending still goes up with his plan? Just not at the higher rate that the Obama/Democrate's plan.


Only if you look at it in raw dollars, and not relative to GDP. You shouldn't ever just look at the raw dollars. Hell, even per capita would make more sense.

Oh, and you didn't comment on leaving out the impact on aggregate demand.

Yeah... can't argue that. I'd just think Rubio is a better strategic pick to win the WH.


Possibly. There is a reasonable chance Rubio said no, though.

No... don't tell me what I'm "supposed" to believe in... that kind of thinking is the path to socialism and eventually communism (the most destructive economic policies in history). The Risk takers and those who work hard striving for excellence are the driving force in a healthy robust economy. Government's jobs is to provide a stable framework. Excessive government intervention puts a damper on that. The real question is... when is it enough?


"The risk takers are the driving force" thing is standard Republican line... and the philosophy underpinning that is that when they succeed jobs and opportunities are created for the middle and working classes. Like I said 'a rising tide lifts all ships'.

Which is what shared prosperity is. It means the wealth that's created is on some level shared. Everyone wants that. So freaking out when a democrat says is just politics by the stupid, for the stupid.

I just don't think its a given to go from the first to the second. You might be right, and Ryan might overshadow the actual Presidential candidate and in that case it'll be pretty easy, but at the end of the day despite the fuss right now he's still just the VP candidate.


Exactly, he's just the VP. And note I think it's far from a given, I think it's a really difficult thing to achieve, and suspect Obama will be unlikely to achieve it (and if he does it's probably only because Romney utterly fails to put any kind of vision forward, in which case Romney's campaign has even bigger problems).

That said, this is the first sign of Romney having to make a choice to shore up support among a traditional Republican voting bloc, and it's never good when you have to start doing that.

Yup... current entitlement will be on the conversation now... at some point, we'll elect enough adults to address this.


Hopefully the present mood in congress will pass, and hopefully at some point enough people will get sick of partisan games and instinctively look to politicians who talk to them like adults. Hopefully.

You say bankruptcy is a "bad thing". In a healthy economic society, bankruptcy is a GOOD thing. It's a reset button. So... according to this statistics:


It's a good thing compared to be trapped in debt forever. But it's a terrible thing compared being given a manageable bill and then carrying on in your life while still owning your own house and car.

http://www.uscourts.gov/Statistics/BankruptcyStatistics.aspx
From March '11 to March '12 there were over 1.3 million bankruptcies filed. Out of that, based on a recent Harvard studies (I have issues with this study, but lets roll with it), about 40% of those were due to medical expenses. So, during this time period about 520K people filed for bankruptcy due to medical expenses.

So... yes, we can make it work.


I have absolutely no fething clue what so ever how 520 thousand people declaring bankruptcy because they got sick can be considered 'making it work'. That's a terrible stat that should shock people into action.

The politicians says the underline... in the real world... the standard of care will go down.


It isn't politicians, its the CBO. The difference is very important.

Nor will the standard of care go down. It can't. There's no provision there at all to reduce the standard of care. If the measures in place don't save that much money, what happens is that the savings end up being less.

Nope... it's LOADED with special interests. Big Pharma got goodies (and in the end, they still got shafted)


Oh yeah, there's plenty in there for special interests (the private insurers made the mistake of fighting the bill rather than sending their own lobbyists, which is why they were the only group to get screwed). Which is why this needs to be the first step of many, in which future steps are addressed in a bi-partisan manner without heavy political grandstanding, thereby reducing the potential impact of special interest groups.

Right... and Democrates were serious all along polishing their halos... gotcha.


It's lazy to just assume because I acknowledge the Republicans were particularly odious on this issue that I think the Democrats are angels. They're not, they're just a political party bought and paid for major corporate interests, who do just enough to keep progressives voting for them every two years.

But seriously, the Republican opposition to HCR was overtly political from the get go. The memos were made public. It is no secret.

It is socialism (not verbatim, but the direction).


Not really, no.

To be fair, there are some good stuff in HCR bill. I think the problem was they tried to fix it "all at once", and in order to get it passed, you had to satisfy all the special interest groups to squeak it by and what's left is a bloated BAD law with a few redeeming stuff.


The problem is that there's so much political capital spent to just raise healthcare that any legislation is likely to be a once in a generation type affair, so it does produce a bill with a lot of mess in it.

It'd be nice if you could produce a working committee aimed at a constant series of minor, bi-partisan reforms to modernise the US healthcare system, but that's just not going to happen.

Yeah, the extremism on both sides are at fault. But let me just say this... I'm not quite sure how I feel about it, but isn't a better (long term) if one party controls only one branch? IE, Republican Congress vs. Democrate WH? It seems that we go all ape-gak crazy when one party controls both branch of government.


I think the better option, honestly, is to take power away from the hardliners of the two parties who hate any idea of crossing the floor. It wasn't that long ago that the US was remarkable for the freedom with which members would cross the floor to vote for or against a bill.

In our Wesminster system party loyalty is strictly enforced and daring to cross the floor to vote against your party is a big deal, but that's part and parcel of our system, and there are checks and balances elsewhere in the system. Your government is set up differently, and works best when people are free to vote as they believe, not as the party dictates they must.

Yeah... it's the stereotyping that is getting outta hand... (I know I fall into that trap).


It's more that people are actually becoming the stereotype. They're own politics are changing to conform to those of the parties. Which is just plain weird, really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
whembly wrote:Right... everything here is MORE expensive. Just the way it is... So how that segues into foreigner's travel cost... that interesting 'cuz now with that, travel expenses is even more spendy for ya'll.


Not at all. In fact your country is incredibly cheap. My wife and I lived like kings over there, ate at top notch restaurants and did everything we wanted, because it was all so cheap to what stuff costs here. But that doesn't apply to health care, which is crazy expensive.

Oh, and kudos on having an awesome country. The US is an amazing place.

And also, credit to you for how you've conducted yourself in this debate. You most certainly don't owe me a drink. In fact if form is anything to go by, I'll be buying you on before long


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HudsonD wrote:You do realize Obama is considered "right wing" in most western democracies ?


Which is the funny thing. The guy is so popular in the rest of the world, but at the same time he's so far right by our standards he'd be unelectable.

And yet in the US where he's basically smack bang in the middle of things half the country is pretending he's a socialist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:Ayn Rand
Paul Ryan
Ron Paul
Rand Paul

Good thing they all believe the same things!


Ha! How did I never notice that. I mean, I knew Rand Paul was named after Ayn Rand, but adding in Paul Ryan just makes it nutty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
labmouse42 wrote:
whembly wrote:They're all politians... they all "flip-flop"... I never understand why there's so much angst about this. People change their mind all the time.
Speaking of Ron Paul -- he has not "flip-flop"d over issues. The man stands up for what he believes in.


Except abortion. He used to be woman's choice, no he thinks life is more important than freedom. And he's changed his mind on Israel like a dozen times. And he used to accept the scientific consensus on global warming, but now he thinks there is considerable doubt.

Which, to be fair, is pretty consistent for a politician. It's just that I'm not too sure believing the same stuff now and in 1980 is really that decent a measure of a person. Things have happened, new information has come in. As Keyne's famously said 'When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?'

Raul insistance on needing a gold standard, and hyper inflation being just around the corner, a call he hasn't let up on despite being wrong for three decades, is a classic example. Inflation throughout has remained under control. And yet he keeps bleating on about it.




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KalashnikovMarine wrote:Edit: and serious applause for Paul's speeches on blowback! Between the book Charlie Wilson's War, a couple others on that time period and some of the Ron Paul material on US interference with the middle east in the 80s it seems pretty clear to me that we definitely stuck our foot in the hornet's nest long before the Gulf War.


The issue in Afghanistan was not in funding the mujahadeen. The issue was that once the Russians withdrew the US lost interest, and couldn't find the small change to develop schools and infrastructure. In the wake of this hardliners (and not the people the US had supported) took over.

Afghanistan, and George Crills' book, and the movie they made of it, all make the point that the failing was in not supporting Afghanistan post-Soviet invasion. None claim that helping the Afghanis against a brutal invader was a bad idea.


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KalashnikovMarine wrote:I hardly consider him an Oracle, or think he's got the right answer 100% of the time, he could very well be wrong in many cases. That said I think he's got a clearer view of the picture in the middle east then most do at present.


Isolationism is an old and very popular idea in the USA, and Paul is hardly brave for beating the drum so loudly over it. But it's a dangerous, simplistic view of history.

Afterall, it took considerable political skill from Roosevelt and a couple of incredibly bone headed moves from the Germans for Roosevelt to win the political fight with the isolationists and begin to sell war resources to the UK and France.

Now, I'm not saying the current state of US shenanigans around the world is better, but that there is an option somewhere between 'feth around with governments because their politics are bad for our businesses and sometimes just because we're bored' and 'never leave the USA ever'. Some kind of approach that puts a balance between the rights of people, the safety of US soldiers, and the practicalities of the theatre?

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2012/08/16 09:09:46


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
 
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