Overlords on CCB's and joining units...

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**Nem**

BLADERIKER wrote:
Nem wrote:
The overlords unit type would stay infantry - or he would be would be subject to vehicle rules (Having AV, no armor saves etc). The profile would have to remain infantry to work.
The CCB would remain a vehicle unit. The profile would remain a vehicle.
'Unit type' is not based on the actual unit, it is based on the model.
So... ?
When using them both together, they move etc like a Chariot, but still take their profiles as a separate (not both vehicles, not both infantry and not truly chariot) Changing in this way is quite unprecedented, which is causing (I am guessing) unforeseen problems.

Humor me if you will. What do you consider a Chariot? If all Chariots in 7th ed are Duel Profiles, (Vehicle and non-vehicle.) and this is obsequiously not what you consider to be a Chariot Model. then what do you consider to be a Chariot model?

So then If I am seeing what you are saying correctly, then the Chariot is not one model (Even though we are told it is always one model in the rule set)

So then how do we completely ignore the chariot rule set stating it is one model and treat it exactly as it was in 6th ed?. Where the rider is permitted certain actions while being embarked on in a Dedicated Transport?

If the Chariot suffers an explode result do we roll to wound it's one and only passenger as per the Transports and Explosions results? Does this Passenger make an emergency Disembark move and then roll a pinning check? Or do we remove the entire model?

A Chariot model can be riderless, which means there is no other profile but the chariot, and there are only a few Chariots that have no rider and all of them can be purchased as stand alone models, all of the rest have two profiles. Some of these Chariots are purchased as Squadrons where the rider is an upgrade to the Chariot; Where as other chariots like the CCB and a few of the daemon ones are purchased as upgrades for the Rider.

The CCB cannot be fielded without the Overlord, there is no way to do it under any circumstances.

The CCB is Purchased as an upgrade to an Overlord.

The Overlord is not purchased as an upgrade to the CCB.

Thus I argue that when an Overlord purchases a CCB as an upgrade, the CCB effectively becomes part of the Overlord Model(not the over way around), the model must follow all rules for the Overlord (IC,RP, EL) unless explicitly prohibited from doing so, as well as following all the rules for the Chariot unit type(Page 86 BRB), and all the rules for the CCB. (Sweep Attack, Symbiotic Repair, Fast, Skimmer, Open topped..ect). The AV of the Chariot profile does make for some interesting issues, that can be overcome. This combination of models is no different than a Sm captain taking a Bike upgrade, or a HT upgrading his profile to have wings.

Yes it is new, a Model that has both a vehicle and non-vehicle profile active at all times, where the controlling player can choose what shooting hits are allocated to which profile on the one model. (very new game mechanic)

How many weapons may the rider fire? Those rules which relate to infantry, or the rules which relate to vehicles? Or if they are one model how many can that model fire?
The rules are dodgy. It says the Riders weapons use the riders profile, and the chariots weapons use the chariot profile, and that the Rider can fire any weapon counting as stationary. If they were one model and that model had a firing limit.

If the Chariot suffers an explode result do we roll to wound it's one and only passenger as per the Transports and Explosions results? Does this Passenger make an emergency Disembark move and then roll a pinning check? Or do we remove the entire model? The Chariot rules list what to do in these circumstances. The rules tell you to remove the entire model if either the rider or the chariot is removed.

Though note above, the Chariot can suffer results that effect the Rider as-a-passenger. When Crew is stunned does this effect the Chariot vehicle part also?

And there is still a world of difference between taking a bike and taking a chariot. The fact chariots need more extensive rules while bikes just modify a profile is a bit of a clue.

It's not just CCB & NO & AV issues.

**BLADERIKER**

Nem wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
Nem wrote:
The overlords unit type would stay infantry - or he would be would be subject to vehicle rules (Having AV, no armor saves etc). The profile would have to remain infantry to work.
The CCB would remain a vehicle unit. The profile would remain a vehicle.
'Unit type' is not based on the actual unit, it is based on the model.
So... ?
When using them both together, they move etc like a Chariot, but still take their profiles as a separate (not both vehicles, not both infantry and not truly chariot) Changing in this way is quite unprecedented, which is causing (I am guessing) unforeseen problems.

Humor me if you will. What do you consider a Chariot? If all Chariots in 7th ed are Duel Profiles, (Vehicle and non-vehicle.) and this is obsequiously not what you consider to be a Chariot Model. then what do you consider to be a Chariot model?

So then If I am seeing what you are saying correctly, then the Chariot is not one model (Even though we are told it is always one model in the rule set)

So then how do we completely ignore the chariot rule set stating it is one model and treat it exactly as it was in 6th ed?. Where the rider is permitted certain actions while being embarked on in a Dedicated Transport?

If the Chariot suffers an explode result do we roll to wound it's one and only passenger as per the Transports and Explosions results? Does this Passenger make an emergency Disembark move and then roll a pinning check? Or do we remove the entire model?

A Chariot model can be riderless, which means there is no other profile but the chariot, and there are only a few Chariots that have no rider and all of them can be purchased as stand alone models, all of the rest have two profiles. Some of these Chariots are purchased as Squadrons where the rider is an upgrade to the Chariot; Where as other chariots like the CCB and a few of the daemon ones are purchased as upgrades for the Rider.

The CCB cannot be fielded without the Overlord, there is no way to do it under any circumstances.

The CCB is Purchased as an upgrade to an Overlord.

The Overlord is not purchased as an upgrade to the CCB.

Thus I argue that when an Overlord purchases a CCB as an upgrade, the CCB effectively becomes part of the Overlord Model(not the over way around), the model must follow all rules for the Overlord (IC,RP, EL) unless explicitly prohibited from doing so, as well as following all the rules for the Chariot unit type(Page 86 BRB), and all the rules for the CCB. (Sweep Attack, Symbiotic Repair, Fast, Skimmer, Open topped..ect). The AV of the Chariot profile does make for some interesting issues, that can be overcome. This combination of models is no different than a Sm captain taking a Bike upgrade, or a HT upgrading his profile to have wings.

Yes it is new, a Model that has both a vehicle and non-vehicle profile active at all times, where the controlling player can choose what shooting hits are allocated to which profile on the one model. (very new game mechanic)

How many weapons may the rider fire? Those rules which relate to infantry, or the rules which relate to vehicles? Or if they are one model how many can that model fire?
The rules are dodgy. It says the Riders weapons use the riders profile, and the chariots weapons use the chariot profile, and that the Rider can fire any weapon counting as stationary. If they were one model and that model had a firing limit.

If the Chariot suffers an explode result do we roll to wound it's one and only passenger as per the Transports and Explosions results? Does this Passenger make an emergency Disembark move and then roll a pinning check? Or do we remove the entire model? The Chariot rules list what to do in these circumstances. The rules tell you to remove the entire model if either the rider or the chariot is removed.

Though note above, the Chariot can suffer results that effect the Rider as-a-passenger. When Crew is stunned does this effect the Chariot vehicle part also?

And there is still a world of difference between taking a bike and taking a chariot. The fact chariots need more extensive rules while bikes just modify a profile is a bit of a clue.

It's not just CCB & NO & AV issues.

So how many Profiles does a Chariot have? What rules are given to address the issue of what each profile can do? Yes there are.

Do the Chariot rules explain how Vehicle Damage results effect the rider. Yes they do.

If you are correct in your statement that the rider's unit type does not change and remains Infantry, then because the Chariot is not a Transport, and the chariot model is effected by the rules and restrictions of both profiles. The Chariot would have a Maximum movement of 6in in the movement phase due to the movement rules requiring it move only as fast as the units slowest profile. and could only run a D6 re-rolling and never flat out. Is that in-fact the case?, If so then all Chariots are RAW unplayable, by your inference.

Are we given permission in the rules to wound (as per the transports and explodes result rule) the rider if the Chariot suffers an explode result? There is no
permission given, as the rider is not being transported by the chariot but is part of the entire model.

Are we given permission in the rules to ignore the rider profile if the rider loses it last wound? No we remove both from play if one is slain/destroyed.

Does a Chariot have the (Transport) vehicle type? The CCB's unit type is: Vehicle (Chariot, Fact, Open-topped, Skimmer), The CCB is no longer a Transport vehicle.

The Chariot is not a transport, and in the new rule set it has become an extension of its rider, and in some cases a riderless stand alone model.

Part of the reason that Chariots need more rules now, is that before they were nothing more than a Dedicated Transport Vehicle. (In 6th ed there was less than 2/3 a page given to explaining Chariot rules, where as in 7th ed there are 2 pages of explanation.) Now Chariots are no longer a Dedicated Transport Vehicles but a Hybrid between a Ridden mount(Like a Bike or Cavalry) and a vehicle very similar to what they were before (Which to the best of my knowledge has never been done before in 40K) So more rules are needed to explain how this model interacts with the rest of the 40K world.

**Nem**

BLADERIKER wrote:
Nem wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
Nem wrote:
The overlords unit type would stay infantry - or he would be would be subject to vehicle rules (Having AV, no armor saves etc). The profile would have to remain infantry to work.
The CCB would remain a vehicle unit. The profile would remain a vehicle.
'Unit type' is not based on the actual unit, it is based on the model.
So... ?
When using them both together, they move etc like a Chariot, but still take their profiles as a separate (not both vehicles, not both infantry and not truly chariot) Changing in this way is quite unprecedented, which is causing (I am guessing) unforeseen problems.

Humor me if you will. What do you consider a Chariot? If all Chariots in 7th ed are Duel Profiles, (Vehicle and non-vehicle.) and this is obsequiously not what you consider to be a Chariot Model. then what do you consider to be a Chariot model?

So then If I am seeing what you are saying correctly, then the Chariot is not one model (Even though we are told it is always one model in the rule set)

So then how do we completely ignore the chariot rule set stating it is one model and treat it exactly as it was in 6th ed?. Where the rider is permitted certain actions while being embarked on in a Dedicated Transport?

If the Chariot suffers an explode result do we roll to wound it's one and only passenger as per the Transports and Explosions results? Does this Passenger make an emergency Disembark move and then roll a pinning check? Or do we remove the entire model?

A Chariot model can be riderless, which means there is no other profile but the chariot, and there are only a few Chariots that have no rider and all of them can be purchased as stand alone models, all of the rest have two profiles. Some of these Chariots are purchased as Squadrons where the rider is an upgrade to the Chariot; Where as other chariots like the CCB and a few of the daemon ones are purchased as upgrades for the Rider.

The CCB cannot be fielded without the Overlord, there is no way to do it under any circumstances.

The CCB is Purchased as an upgrade to an Overlord.

The Overlord is not purchased as an upgrade to the CCB.

Thus I argue that when an Overlord purchases a CCB as an upgrade, the CCB effectively becomes part of the Overlord Model(not the over way around), the model must follow all rules for the Overlord (IC,RP, EL) unless explicitly prohibited from doing so, as well as following all the rules for the Chariot unit type(Page 86 BRB), and all the rules for the CCB. (Sweep Attack, Symbiotic Repair, Fast, Skimmer, Open topped..ect). The AV of the Chariot profile does make for some interesting issues, that can be overcome. This combination of models is no different than a Sm captain taking a Bike upgrade, or a HT upgrading his profile to have wings.

Yes it is new, a Model that has both a vehicle and non-vehicle profile active at all times, where the controlling player can choose what shooting hits are allocated to which profile on the one model. (very new game mechanic)

How many weapons may the rider fire? Those rules which relate to infantry, or the rules which relate to vehicles? Or if they are one model how many can that model fire?
The rules are dodgy. It says the Riders weapons use the riders profile, and the chariots weapons use the chariot profile, and that the Rider can fire any weapon counting as stationary. If they were one model and that model had a firing limit.

If the Chariot suffers an explode result do we roll to wound it's one and only passenger as per the Transports and Explosions results? Does this Passenger make an emergency Disembark move and then roll a pinning check? Or do we remove the entire model? The Chariot rules list what to do in these circumstances. The rules tell you to remove the entire model if either the rider or the chariot is removed.

Though note above, the Chariot can suffer results that effect the Rider as-a-passenger. When Crew is stunned does this effect the Chariot vehicle part also?

And there is still a world of difference between taking a bike and taking a chariot. The fact chariots need more extensive rules while bikes just modify a profile is a bit of a clue.

It's not just CCB & NO & AV issues.

So how many Profiles does a Chariot have? What rules are given to address the issue of what each profile can do? Yes there are.

Do the Chariot rules explain how Vehicle Damage results effect the rider. Yes they do.

If you are correct in your statement that the rider's unit type does not change and remains Infantry, then because the Chariot is not a Transport, and the chariot model is effected by the rules and restrictions of both profiles. The Chariot would have a Maximum movement of 6in in the movement phase due to the movement rules requiring it move only as fast as the units slowest profile. and could only run a D6 re-rolling and never flat out. Is that in-fact the case?, If so then all Chariots are RAW unplayable, by your inference.

Actually no, because the chariot rules tell you how a chariot model moves, so that is a mute point.

BLADERIKER wrote:

Are we given permission in the rules to wound (as per the transports and explodes result rule) the rider if the Chariot suffers an explode result? There is no
permission given, as the rider is not being transported by the chariot but is part of the entire model.

Are we given permission in the rules to ignore the rider profile if the rider loses it last wound? No we remove both from play if one is slain/destroyed.

Does a Chariot have the (Transport) vehicle type? The CCB's unit type is: Vehicle (Chariot, Fact, Open-topped, Skimmer), The CCB is no longer a Transport vehicle.

The Chariot is not a transport, and in the new rule set it has become an extension of its rider, and in some cases a riderless stand alone model.

Then why do the chariot rules mention exceptions to SOME passenger related vehicle results but not others?

I don't have the BRB on me at the moment but I'm assuming the part about chariot losing transport rule is in there... though I am dubious

**Happyjew**

Nem wrote:
Actually no, because the chariot rules tell you how a chariot model moves, so that is a mute point.

Moot, not mute.

**Gravmyr**

The FAQ and errata remove transport from it's type and the rider is referred to as just that not a passenger. Not sure what else you need to convince you they are not transport per the rules. Since it is not a transport the rules it mentions are they only ones that have an affect at all on the rider if they state they do.

**HoverBoy**

The DOC FAQ clearly states that a herald who purchases a chariot looses the IC USR, the Necrons FAQ doesn't.
What do you guys make of this?

**Gravmyr**

That is what this entire thread is about. You can read just about everyone's opinion on the matter by going through the 14 pages of this thread.

**HoverBoy**

Well derp, sorry.

**BLADERIKER**

Are we now debating whether or not a Rider is the same as a Transported Unit Nem?

If the Rider is in fact a transported unit, then how do we account for the rider being an equal part of the Chariot Model?

It has been established some time ago(between pages1-14 of this thread) that a Overlord with a CCB has the IC USR, and that there is nothing in the IC USR that prevents a Vehicle with IC from Joining a Unit.

The Issue that has arisen is how to Wound a Unit with a CCB/Overlord attached to it.

I found the Idea for wounding/Damaging a Vehicle Squadron might be the best way to handle this issue.

As for the Chariot Rules giving specific instruction on what effects the rider when affected by certain Damage results, that is part of the Chariot rule set (BRB page 86) no different that how a Grounding Check affects a FMC, or a Jump unit handles landing in Difficult terrain. We must remember this is a old unit type with new rules to better explain how it works.

**Nem**

Happyjew wrote:
Nem wrote:
Actually no, because the chariot rules tell you how a chariot model moves, so that is a mute point.

Moot, not mute.

Thanks

BLADERIKER wrote:
Are we now debating whether or not a Rider is the same as a Transported Unit Nem?

If the Rider is in fact a transported unit, then how do we account for the rider being an equal part of the Chariot Model?

It has been established some time ago(between pages1-14 of this thread) that a Overlord with a CCB has the IC USR, and that there is nothing in the IC USR that prevents a Vehicle with IC from Joining a Unit.

The Issue that has arisen is how to Wound a Unit with a CCB/Overlord attached to it.

I found the Idea for wounding/Damaging a Vehicle Squadron might be the best way to handle this issue.

As for the Chariot Rules giving specific instruction on what effects the rider when affected by certain Damage results, that is part of the Chariot rule set (BRB page 86) no different that how a Grounding Check affects a FMC, or a Jump unit handles landing in Difficult terrain. We must remember this is a old unit type with new rules to better explain how it works.

The passenger bit came up during other things as much is dependent on the answer of another, the original disagreement was around what unit type is the Chariot + Rider and the Chariot & Rider, while discussing other rules come in. But we seem to be moving on from one thing to another without actually addressing the last. I think there are a few problem with the rules as they are and they are not accounting for a few things. The main argument in this thread is based on the rules that USR's apply to models, and the Chariot is one model with two profiles.

I can not dispute that, but I can apply that argument to other areas as the rules as a whole are written as 'this effects models' or 'this effects units' - Nothing in the rules only effects (affects?) profiles - because it would have never been a issue before this.

So on passengers.

I'll refer to the vehicle as the chariot, and the character as the rider, as this is how it is referred to in the rules.
Note; in newer publications the vehicles in question actually have the Chariot unit type, this wasn't given to the CCB via the Necron FAQ but we can assume they mean it to be.

While the Chariot rules do not specify the rider is embarked out right, it is insinuated in these points.
-It does specify the rider of the chariot can not disembark.
-Chariot is carrying the rider.
-All the Chariot Vehicles I've looked at are Open topped, which only matters to rules around passengers, these were not removed.

Particularly the last point is important in conjunction with the unit type of the model, and how it pertains to shooting. If the model is a vehicle, and the rider is not a passenger, you have to fall back on the vehicle rules for shooting, which means you are measuring the LOS from the riders weapons down the barrel, as he does not get the open topped passenger rule, and the model is not a infantry model.

That's before we get to how many weapons each or both or the one model can shoot, but again has a direct impact.

Of course, to admit the rider is a infantry model or a passenger is to admit the rules around giving something to a model via the rules may not be as watertight as first approached, and that in fact not everything from each profile which is applied to models is shared.

**Gravmyr**

The chariot unit type is vehicle (chariot) just like it says in the Necron FAQ for the CCB.

The inferences could be a thousand fold and it still wouldn't affect the fact that it tells you to always treat them as one model.
-It does specify the rider of the chariot can not disembark. - It also specifies if one is destroyed the other is removed, not wounded / damaged in any way, as opposed to transport destruction.
-Chariot is carrying the rider. - It's also carrying a weapon does that mean it's weapons are their own models as well?
-All the Chariot Vehicles I've looked at are Open topped, which only matters to rules around passengers, these were not removed. - Except for that pesky easier to blow up bit.....

The rider can retain it's entire profile and not change a thing so long as you remember to always treat him and the chariot as one model.

**Nem**

Gravmyr wrote:
The chariot unit type is vehicle (chariot) just like it says in the Necron FAQ for the CCB.

The inferences could be a thousand fold and it still wouldn't affect the fact that it tells you to always treat them as one model.
-It does specify the rider of the chariot can not disembark. - It also specifies if one is destroyed the other is removed, not wounded / damaged in any way, as opposed to transport destruction.
-Chariot is carrying the rider. - It's also carrying a weapon does that mean it's weapons are their own models as well?
-All the Chariot Vehicles I've looked at are Open topped, which only matters to rules around passengers, these were not removed. - Except for that pesky easier to blow up bit.....

The rider can retain it's entire profile and not change a thing so long as you remember to always treat him and the chariot as one model.

That's fine with me, it's just making aware of what exactly one model for everything means, possible snap shots dependent- damage results applying to the rider and vehicle eg weapon destroyed, vehicle LOS from the rider. Having to follow the vehicle rules is a bit of a stick in the mud.

Personally, I don't see the point in things like rules giving the rider Fearless and Relentless if everything is shared anyway, and neither is apparently needed. But hayho.

**BLADERIKER**

As per the Necron FAQ the CCB has had its unit type changed to Chariot. (Third Page)

Open Top, adds a +1 to the Vehicle Damage Table. There is no other Benefit that Open top gives to a Chariot that is not already spelled out in the Chariot rule set.

Also It can be argued that a Weapon destroyed result will not destroy the Riders Melee Weapon due to {BRB Page 87: "damage results that do not destroy the Chariot do not affect the way its rider fights". And taking away (In the case of a Warscythe) [+2 Strength, Armourbane, AP1,] does affect how the Overlord/rider fights.

Treating the Chariot and Rider as one model is the issue discussed here in.

We are instructed to always treat it as one model, then we are given exceptions to this rule in the Chariot Rule set, much like the one I posted above.

In normal cases an embarked unit who's transport suffers a Crew Stunned result is force to pass a Moral Check or Snapshot in their next shooting phase (BRB Page 82)

There are no rules for how a unit embarked within a transport may attack from their Transport into an Assault. (At least that I can find)