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If I put an overlord on a command barge, does he keep his independent character special rule? and is therefore able to still join units?

What I want to do is load him up on a barge, and join him into a unit of wraiths...

Dont have brb but i beleive that chariots counts as vehicles and the overlord is embarked on its as per transport so yup.he keeps IC bit as he is in a vehicle (albiet eith lots of special rules) that cannot join units

Chariots no longer operate like a transport vehicle

Chariot rules have been completely rewritten and the Overlord and Chariot become the same model.

The Chariot is no longer a transport and the Overlord is no longer embarked, nor can he ever disembark.

The Heralds from Codex: Chaos Daemons all lose the IC rule when they get a Chariot. The Overlord does not.

So, can he join a unit?

Current RAW, as long as he is not joining a unit that contains a MC or Vehicles, yes.

This feels cheesy, but he should have been FAQed with the Heralds. I can't tell if GW wants you to join him with units or not so I recommend talking this over with your opponent first.

As of FAQ he becomes a chariot rider. And vehicles cannot join units

Guys, what's your interpretation of the rules for chariot CCB for Necrons?

BRB: " a Chariot is always treated as a single model. For the purpose of characteristic tests, always use the riders profile. Furthermore, any characteristic modifier that affect a chariot model apply to both rider and chariot.

Necron Codex: A model with phase shifter has a 3+ invulnerable save

So we have "one model" that has Phase Shifter - which should give both Chariot and Overlord a 3++ save.

Feels as cheesy as joining a Unit, however the RAW seems to allow it.

Here is the past thread talking about this, it is closed now, but you can give it a read through.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597565.page

Best piece of advice on how to play this:

Don't let it join units. Wargear does not carry over.

Unless you want to spend 30 minutes before the game reasoning with your opponent, leaving both of you unssatisfied and angry.

RAW-wise, war gear does not carry over. Joining units might be possible, however, yet it creates a huge balance problem. And really, CCB got buffed so hard, don't go full DoC on your opponent.

katana100 wrote:
As of FAQ he becomes a chariot rider. And vehicles cannot join units

There is no such rule that says that vehicles can't join units...

Vehicles cannot join units because there is no rule allowing them to.

It's a permissive ruleset, therefore, you need a rule to say that you can join another unit to be able to do so.

Assuming that you may do something because it is not disallowed is incorrect.

In the case of the CCB, these are two conflicting rules as one part of the model is allowed to join units whereas the other part isn't.

 Nilok wrote:
Here is the past thread talking about this, it is closed now, but you can give it a read through.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597565.page

This covers it all, including the correct internet quota of trolling and math Nazis.

Can we get a mod to lock this baby up before it all kicks off again?

Haha. I've read the thread posted. Thanks for that. I can see both arguments. But I'm going to go with RAI - he can't join a unit. Although I do now think a phase shifter gives the chariot a 3++, so with that discovery, I will walk away happy!

For my opinion: It keeps the IC rule when it becomes the unholy combination of models that is the 7th edition chariot. I fully expect this to receive some errata sooner or later, but for now it is a model with the IC rule and no specific rule (note I said 'rule'; not common sense, or balance issues) preventing it from joining anything you like, pursuant to that same rule of course.

I feel the same way about the 3++ working, but that isn't as relevant to this thread.

 Neorealist wrote:
For my opinion: It keeps the IC rule when it becomes the unholy combination of models that is the 7th edition chariot. I fully expect this to receive some errata sooner or later, but for now it is a model with the IC rule and no specific rule (note I said 'rule'; not common sense, or balance issues) preventing it from joining anything you like, pursuant to that same rule of course.

I feel the same way about the 3++ working, but that isn't as relevant to this thread.

Yeah, I see it the same way. I will run him with some wraiths. Until an opponent complains. And then I will simply run him alone. I'm not the arguing kind.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
For my opinion: It keeps the IC rule when it becomes the unholy combination of models that is the 7th edition chariot. I fully expect this to receive some errata sooner or later, but for now it is a model with the IC rule and no specific rule (note I said 'rule'; not common sense, or balance issues) preventing it from joining anything you like, pursuant to that same rule of course.

I feel the same way about the 3++ working, but that isn't as relevant to this thread.

Yeah, I see it the same way. I will run him with some wraiths. Until an opponent complains. And then I will simply run him alone. I'm not the arguing kind.

I would never play you again if you did that.

If someone tries something and when caught out on it, immediately changes it, to me, that simply looks like someone thinking that I was too stupid to catch him breaking the rules - I would feel stupid or even cheated out in such a situation! Always, always, always clear those things up before the game starts.

A good point brought up in the other thread is alloacation of wounds during a shooting attack.

During the roll to wound phase, you would roll vs majority toughness. If, lets say you get 5 wounds, when it comes time to allocate against the chariot, would you roll penetration? After you have rolled to wound? Somehow this step is not clarified in the FAQ. Not sure about the ruebook.

Based on this, I think it is hard to resolve shooting against such a unit. Thus, by extension, even if RAW allows joining right now, I probably wouldnt do it because it messes up the game in that way.

Editted for grammar and spelling

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
For my opinion: It keeps the IC rule when it becomes the unholy combination of models that is the 7th edition chariot. I fully expect this to receive some errata sooner or later, but for now it is a model with the IC rule and no specific rule (note I said 'rule'; not common sense, or balance issues) preventing it from joining anything you like, pursuant to that same rule of course.

I feel the same way about the 3++ working, but that isn't as relevant to this thread.

Yeah, I see it the same way. I will run him with some wraiths. Until an opponent complains. And then I will simply run him alone. I'm not the arguing kind.

I would never play you again if you did that.

If someone tries something and when caught out on it, immediately changes it, to me, that simply looks like someone thinking that I was too stupid to catch him breaking the rules - I would feel stupid or even cheated out in such a situation! Always, always, always clear those things up before the game starts.

So because I'm not argumentative, and would happily allow any tantrum throwing player to get their own way, you would never play me again?

Oh no, I might not sleep tonight now...

Seriously though, I am pretty sure that at the moment - he can join. But I can also see the argument as to why not. The FAQ didn't help like it did with heralds. But I'm not in the business of a 30 minute squabble before a game, when I could just be playing.

@milkboy - The rules for Chariots in the BRB clearly states that shooting wounds on a Chariot are separated into pools, and allocated by the owning player.

Incidently, during combat the attacking player also decides if he will attack the lord or the chariot.

With the above in mind, I see no reason that one couldn't use the 3++ if attacks/wounds are allocated on the OL. My opinion.

To me its all a moot point now anyway. After further reflection, I just don't think its worth its points.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:


So because I'm not argumentative, and would happily allow any tantrum throwing player to get their own way, you would never play me again?

The problem isn't that you aren't argumentative - in the contrary, you came to an internet forum and looked for info. The problem is that if you play against someone and try to pull sth. off without telling him, then, when called out on it, immediately stop doing so...then, to anyone seeing this, it looks exactly like you knew that doing so would be wrong and tried to go under the radar. That's extremely bad sportsmanship. If you know that there might be trouble with something in the game, clear it up beforehand. It's the best solution by a long shot.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Vehicles cannot join units because there is no rule allowing them to.

It's a permissive ruleset, therefore, you need a rule to say that you can join another unit to be able to do so.

Assuming that you may do something because it is not disallowed is incorrect.

In the case of the CCB, these are two conflicting rules as one part of the model is allowed to join units whereas the other part isn't.

In my comment, it was implied that the IC rule gives that permission and there is no specific rule in the vehicles rules that forbids it.

So if I am understanding this correctly you can have a barge lead a group of wraiths?? Pretty sure it's not intended but does seem RAW.

Reason why I don't think it's intended is how do you damage the unit? If we go the majority toughness route but have the barge in the front does it then roll on the damage chart for each wound? Or does it have to still roll for penetration or are these just glances. Furthermore if you somehow decide how that works and an explodes result is the occurrence how does look out sir work with this? How do you look out sir an explodes? Does the wraith "explode".

There are too many issues with this possible rule combination for it to be the intention, namely it breaks the game at the "wounding" stage.

Step aside 2++ re-rollable deathstars thats the past, 7th is all about the vehicle stars that you can't shoot.

Punisher wrote:
So if I am understanding this correctly you can have a barge lead a group of wraiths?? Pretty sure it's not intended but does seem RAW.

Reason why I don't think it's intended is how do you damage the unit? If we go the majority toughness route but have the barge in the front does it then roll on the damage chart for each wound? Or does it have to still roll for penetration or are these just glances. Furthermore if you somehow decide how that works and an explodes result is the occurrence how does look out sir work with this? How do you look out sir an explodes? Does the wraith "explode".

There are too many issues with this possible rule combination for it to be the intention, namely it breaks the game at the "wounding" stage.

Step aside 2++ re-rollable deathstars thats the past, 7th is all about the vehicle stars that you can't shoot.

That's why you are highly recommend to go down the sportsmanship route and take the RAI solution.

Punisher wrote:
So if I am understanding this correctly you can have a barge lead a group of wraiths?? Pretty sure it's not intended but does seem RAW.

Reason why I don't think it's intended is how do you damage the unit? If we go the majority toughness route but have the barge in the front does it then roll on the damage chart for each wound? Or does it have to still roll for penetration or are these just glances. Furthermore if you somehow decide how that works and an explodes result is the occurrence how does look out sir work with this? How do you look out sir an explodes? Does the wraith "explode".

There are too many issues with this possible rule combination for it to be the intention, namely it breaks the game at the "wounding" stage.

Step aside 2++ re-rollable deathstars thats the past, 7th is all about the vehicle stars that you can't shoot.

The "Shooting at Chariots" section and how hits are resolved in 7e, solves this problem.
When shooting, you go through the entire shoot sequence after selecting a target for each weapon. Only after you have finished resolving wounds/glances/penetrations, do you select another weapon to fire.

SHOOTING AT CHARIOTS wrote:The player controlling the Chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the Chariot of the closest model in the unit. If several pools of hits need to be resolved, the player making the attacks must decide in which order they are resolved. All hits from a single pool must be allocated and resolved before moving on to the next pool.

So even if a Chariot is in a group of Wraiths or Scarabs, it can and will still be wounded/glanced/penetrated, however, you will have to tank all the hits in that hit pool before moving to the next model unless it is still alive.

Sadly as Dakka Dakka forums have more than once shown, playing RAI (When intention is not clear) and when RAW conflict is neither poor sportsmanship nor playing cheesy. We had to suffer through the 2++ re-rollable in 6th and it looks like that until GW make s a call on this issue, of whether of not a Overlord (IC) keeps his IC status and can join units while being the rider of a CCB is unknown at present.

What is known is that a Chariot and Rider count as one model, and that in the Necron FAQ the Overlords do not have their IC status removed if riding a Chariot. We do know that as per the BRB when describing what special rules effect a chariot that :RP/EL will effect the CCB, Thus leading me to believe that if the OL had a Rez Orb (Purchasable wargear), it would effect the RP/EL roll taken by the chariot. Thus if the Chariot benefits from the Rez Orb, it would logically benefit from any other wargear purchased by the OL that would normally affect a Vehicle. (IE phase shifter and 3++ save).

I can see the issue with joining a CCB to a unit of say scarabs, where there is an AV 13 vehicle as the closet model and t3 3w models following it. How does one resolve wounding?

If I have read the section regarding chariots correctly, the controller of the chariot decides which hits from which weapons are allocated where, unless they are a precession shots. Thus the controller could have all the shots that cannot hurt the Chariot hit the chariot (And LOS due to the current IC rule those that can hurt it) and all the other shots hit the rider, where he can make LOS to the scarabs to tank wounds.

One issue brought up was how to resolve wounds against a Vehicle, and how to resolve LOS against Explodes results on the damage table. (Edited due to misinformation) Against a Chariot before any wounds are rolled the Controlling player get to allocate where the hits go, so there may never be an instance where this comes up, if the hits are from weapons that could harm the unit but not the chariot then those get thrown against the chariot, and the others against the Lord, where you are more than likely wounding on 2+ anyway.

Sadly as a Necron player I want to see this stay as it is written however, until I test it and see if it is as broken as every one else thinks it is going to be (Had the same issue with Knights, which I found as did many others to not be broken) I reverser my judgment until then.

Thanks for showing the allocation method Nilok. I'm still waitng for my rulebook to arrive.

Seeing how in this case, it is hits that is allocated, it clears up the problem. I had thought it was wound allocation.

And seeng how Daemons were FAQed to remove IC status, it could be either deliberate or a really big mess up on GWs part.

So played a game yesterday, running two Overlords, both on Chariots. Game was against Eldar, admittedly not a great Eldar list, it wasn't seer council and he wasn't running a Wraith Knight. However he was running a huge amount of Str8 missile launcher guys. The guy I was playing is also a Necron player like myself.

Now I didn't have the CCB's join a unit, personally regardless of RAW or RAI, having an AV13 Chariot with infantry, sounds like a pain the manage on the table, assigning wounds or glances. But we did agree that the Chariot does get 3++ due to the RAW of the Chariot rules and the Codex Phase Shifter Rules (the whole Single Model argument)

Holy crap, these things are brutal, Sweep attacks are OK, Shooting is ok up to 6 Str 6 shots (only got 1-2 shots most turns in this game). In Close combat with D6 hammer of wrath on charge and 4 Str 7 AP1 on the charge from the Warscythe, amazing amount of kills. Oh yeah and its fearless

However the attack nothing compared to its defences (its so broken I felt bad)
2+ If taken on Lord
3++ If taken on Lord
AV13 on Chariot
3++ on Chariot if you manage to get past the AV13

My warlord trait gave one of them "It will not die"

When he did manage to glance one of the Chariots down, it came back with Everliving

On top of them he still had to contend with wraiths and flyers and an anni barge. A Double Haywire Squad and the Deathmark Double Despair tek squad being delivered by flyers

My List is very vehicle heavy and with 3 flyers, 7th has been really good to Necrons. I am still quite new to this hobby and not had that many games I shudder to think what good players could do with Necrons, even with having no magic phase.

Chariots are broken, even if you lost the 3++ on the chariot, it still would get a 4+ Jink, they are not unkillable by any means but they are so durable you have to put a lot into getting one down then again you are paying 285 Points.

tvirus40k wrote:

Chariots are broken,

Correction, NECRON chariots are broken. Daemon chariots are fine.

Personally, since the precedent has already been established with the rider losing their IC status for Codex: Chaos Daemons, I would have to think that the Overlord loses IC as well, even if its not specifically stated in the FAQ. As for the 3++ with the phase shifter, thats a tough one. RAW, there is nothing anywhere that indicates it would not apply to the entire model, but it sure does seem cheezy as all get out (13 AV, 4+ Jink, plus can tank shooting with a 2+/3++ on the rider).

 Nilok wrote:

Punisher wrote:
So if I am understanding this correctly you can have a barge lead a group of wraiths?? Pretty sure it's not intended but does seem RAW.

Reason why I don't think it's intended is how do you damage the unit? If we go the majority toughness route but have the barge in the front does it then roll on the damage chart for each wound? Or does it have to still roll for penetration or are these just glances. Furthermore if you somehow decide how that works and an explodes result is the occurrence how does look out sir work with this? How do you look out sir an explodes? Does the wraith "explode".

There are too many issues with this possible rule combination for it to be the intention, namely it breaks the game at the "wounding" stage.

Step aside 2++ re-rollable deathstars thats the past, 7th is all about the vehicle stars that you can't shoot.

The "Shooting at Chariots" section and how hits are resolved in 7e, solves this problem.
When shooting, you go through the entire shoot sequence after selecting a target for each weapon. Only after you have finished resolving wounds/glances/penetrations, do you select another weapon to fire.

SHOOTING AT CHARIOTS wrote:The player controlling the Chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the Chariot of the closest model in the unit. If several pools of hits need to be resolved, the player making the attacks must decide in which order they are resolved. All hits from a single pool must be allocated and resolved before moving on to the next pool.

So even if a Chariot is in a group of Wraiths or Scarabs, it can and will still be wounded/glanced/penetrated, however, you will have to tank all the hits in that hit pool before moving to the next model unless it is still alive.

The thing here is that shooting against non-vehicles is far different than shooting to vehicles. Against vehicles you make hit pools, meanwhile against non-vehicles you make wound pools.