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Plumbumbarum wrote:

I was bashing them left and right design wise, you could even find it maybe here in one of that million pages thread. I agree with everything you said plus the legs look too weak to support it for me plus it's a warmachine ripoff and I hate warmachine warcraftish aesthetics. And yes I know how Epic knights looked.

Fair enough. I wasn't really looking at Knights (or any threads about them) prior to this, so I fear I missed any comments you made there.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

It's still light years ahead of similar warmachine models and I like them as a showing to PP how it is really done. Also everybody seems to love itand unlike the very questionable Taurox, it's a super quality kit by every metric. Again I wouldn't even want it in my army unless heavily nurglified may be

Sorry, but I'm struggling to understand your logic. If you hate the aesthetics and that it's a warmachine ripoff, then what makes it a super quality kit?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Is there a GW Advocate Academy I'm not aware of? It seems every week we get a new graduate who makes the same arguments and misrepresentations and then tells people to love it or get lost.

Can I join, what are the prospects like after I qualify?

I guess i'm a black sheep i play with friends and enjoy the beatings and i also enjoy the wins, i don't play tournements because they leave foul tastes in my mouth. I enjoy GW products, i really don't like the costs but it is what it is for an imported product.

Crimson Heretic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
I'm tired of reading the anti-GW threads that are beaten like a dead horse, if you don't find pleasure in GW products anymore then disappear and move on instead of bitching, they are evolving not turning back to sludge.

So it's either love it or leave it? I can't enjoy doing something with friends but acknowledge fault where it exists?

theres a fine line between seeing the flaws and still pushing through to enjoy it, or breakdown and lose your fething mind on here saying GW is nazi germany

Please elaborate on the underlined. Where has anyone come near that level of hatred?

Seriously, perhaps you would be kind enough to not throw massive exaggerations around that end up hurting your point? That'd be great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
but it is what it is for an imported product.

No, it's really not. There are dozens of "imported products" that cost less for equal quality.

rigeld2 wrote:

Crimson Heretic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
I'm tired of reading the anti-GW threads that are beaten like a dead horse, if you don't find pleasure in GW products anymore then disappear and move on instead of bitching, they are evolving not turning back to sludge.

So it's either love it or leave it? I can't enjoy doing something with friends but acknowledge fault where it exists?

theres a fine line between seeing the flaws and still pushing through to enjoy it, or breakdown and lose your fething mind on here saying GW is nazi germany

Please elaborate on the underlined. Where has anyone come near that level of hatred?

Seriously, perhaps you would be kind enough to not throw massive exaggerations around that end up hurting your point? That'd be great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
but it is what it is for an imported product.

No, it's really not. There are dozens of "imported products" that cost less for equal quality.

I open this forum probably about once a week, and look to enjoy some new and fresh topics but the "fething gw screwed us up the coal chute again" theme keeps popping up, its old and a well beaten pile of bones, i come here to look into new and fresh 40k ideas. I'm not sure what you consider cheaper imports for the same quality, Cheap means lower quality in almost any aspect in life, cars, toilet paper anything...there is no gaming god that will bestow upon you a cheap product with no flaws

Crimson Heretic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Crimson Heretic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
I'm tired of reading the anti-GW threads that are beaten like a dead horse, if you don't find pleasure in GW products anymore then disappear and move on instead of bitching, they are evolving not turning back to sludge.

So it's either love it or leave it? I can't enjoy doing something with friends but acknowledge fault where it exists?

theres a fine line between seeing the flaws and still pushing through to enjoy it, or breakdown and lose your fething mind on here saying GW is nazi germany

Please elaborate on the underlined. Where has anyone come near that level of hatred?

Seriously, perhaps you would be kind enough to not throw massive exaggerations around that end up hurting your point? That'd be great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
but it is what it is for an imported product.

No, it's really not. There are dozens of "imported products" that cost less for equal quality.

I open this forum probably about once a week, and look to enjoy some new and fresh topics but the "fething gw screwed us up the coal chute again" theme keeps popping up, its old and a well beaten pile of bones, i come here to look into new and fresh 40k ideas. I'm not sure what you consider cheaper imports for the same quality, Cheap means lower quality in almost any aspect in life, cars, toilet paper anything...there is no gaming god that will bestow upon you a cheap product with no flaws

Well... screwing the Customer is kind of what GW does now. It's really their MO when you think about it.

Crimson Heretic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Crimson Heretic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
I'm tired of reading the anti-GW threads that are beaten like a dead horse, if you don't find pleasure in GW products anymore then disappear and move on instead of bitching, they are evolving not turning back to sludge.

So it's either love it or leave it? I can't enjoy doing something with friends but acknowledge fault where it exists?

theres a fine line between seeing the flaws and still pushing through to enjoy it, or breakdown and lose your fething mind on here saying GW is nazi germany

Please elaborate on the underlined. Where has anyone come near that level of hatred?

Seriously, perhaps you would be kind enough to not throw massive exaggerations around that end up hurting your point? That'd be great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
but it is what it is for an imported product.

No, it's really not. There are dozens of "imported products" that cost less for equal quality.

I open this forum probably about once a week, and look to enjoy some new and fresh topics but the "fething gw screwed us up the coal chute again" theme keeps popping up, its old and a well beaten pile of bones, i come here to look into new and fresh 40k ideas. I'm not sure what you consider cheaper imports for the same quality, Cheap means lower quality in almost any aspect in life, cars, toilet paper anything...there is no gaming god that will bestow upon you a cheap product with no flaws

He did say cheap, he said 'cost less for equal quality'. So, paying less but getting the same quality. So cheaper doesn't always equal lower quality when one side is charging ridiculous prices and you need lots more of the product.

Talys wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I just have to jump in and say that Plum was claiming the IK as "vastly superior" while giving no reasons why or with little knowledge of the other model in question.

As for what else has amazing detail, highly posable, lots of options and comes in hard plastic?
I bought this bad boy for $35.00 in Japan. (It'll be about $50 or $60 in USA for shipping.)

Spoiler:

This was designed by an American, btw, Syd Mead of Blade Runner and Alien fame.

That's a cool model, but I wouldn't compare it against something like an Imperial Knight (or a Crusader). It's not better; it's different. I for example, would never pay $50-$60 to model something like that, because Manga/Robotech-type models don't appeal to me (not even a tiny bit), while Eldar Wraithknights do. I guess, for the same reason, I have no desire to model a Tau Riptide. Though frankly, the IK is not one of my favorite models either.

Nothing against the model you linked, nor anyone who loves that kind of thing... all the power to you!

I think you missed the point. This thing is taller than a knight, FAR more posable, more parts, more detail and its cheaper. Aesthetics are secondary. (for the argument I was making.)

Crimson Heretic wrote:

I open this forum probably about once a week, and look to enjoy some new and fresh topics but the "fething gw screwed us up the coal chute again" theme keeps popping up, its old and a well beaten pile of bones, i come here to look into new and fresh 40k ideas. I'm not sure what you consider cheaper imports for the same quality, Cheap means lower quality in almost any aspect in life, cars, toilet paper anything...there is no gaming god that will bestow upon you a cheap product with no flaws

Granted there's a fair bit of 40k traffic on this board but I feel obliged to comment that Dakka is not a GW owned and operated bulletin board; it is primarily a tabletop gaming discussion board, populated by various people who possess a wide range of opinions, some of which might even be counter to your own (shocker, I know). If you feel that people who disagree with your opinion are somehow stealing your soul or diminishing your enjoyment of the interwebs, maybe it's time to reassess your personal interactions with others. Do you feel that you are able to relate to people of various backgrounds and schools of thought on a personal basis? Do you find yourself flying into impotent rage whenever someone disagrees with your opinion or expresses a dislike of something that you enjoy? If you answered "no" to the first question and "yes" to the second, maybe it's time for a little vacation from interwebland (patent pending).

As to your second point. Cheaper, not cheap, does not mean something is of lower quality than a GW product. I know, you've been visiting GW stores and they tend to serve purple punch which has an uncanny ability to remove cognizant, comparative thought processes from unsuspecting imbibers but please heed the other threads on this board and various other places in interspace and partake of other manufacturers, you might be surprised. Now, the aesthetics may not be to your liking and that's a separate issue but if you use a modicum of critical thought, you'll realize that there are a great number of models out there that are both cheaper than a comparable GW product and a better quality design.

An example is the Dreamforge Games Leviathan that's been posted in this thread. The leviathan is completely posable, made of hard plastic and has an absolute gackton of options and parts for much less than a GW Imperial Knight. I own one and it has actual screws and comes with a screwdriver for the articulated joints. Amazingly crafted model. Cheaper than GW and a better design. I'll wait while you try to bend knee and foot joints on your GW model and then try to swap your Errant out for a Paladin's payload. *crickets chirping* No? Well, the GW model is obviously superior then because who would want to pose it or swap weapons...why mess with perfection, obviously.

Exalted, and they're not things I hand out easily!

Crimson Heretic wrote:
I open this forum probably about once a week, and look to enjoy some new and fresh topics but the "fething gw screwed us up the coal chute again" theme keeps popping up, its old and a well beaten pile of bones,

a) Don't click those threads.
b) No, those threads don't exist. No one has said "fething gw screwed us up the coal shute again" in a thread (that I know of - I'd laugh my ass off though)
c) Again, exaggerating like that doesn't help your point, it hurts it.
d) The ratio of hate threads to content threads is massively in favor of content threads. Again, don't click the hate threads.

i come here to look into new and fresh 40k ideas. I'm not sure what you consider cheaper imports for the same quality, Cheap means lower quality in almost any aspect in life, cars, toilet paper anything...there is no gaming god that will bestow upon you a cheap product with no flaws

I didn't say "cheaper". Cheaper implies lower quality.
I said less expensive for the same quality. The Dream Forge Games Leviathan is one example in this thread, countless Taiyama and other modeling companies... step back from the GW portal on the web and look around at options.

One thing that keeps coming up as a counter point is being able to pose the model like an action figure...when did this become an expectation for GW products? I thought one of the signatures for awesome skill was the ability to model a miniature in certain freeze frame-like way and then paint it. To make the static look fluid...not the ability to have kung-fu action.

The ability to easily swap out weapons and equipment I also understand but again, I thought this was also a skill to develop as a hobbyist through magnetization, not a requirement of GW.

To require these out of the company instead of developing one's skill kind of kills the hobby for me. I love it when I am able to capture a miniature in an awesome pose or magnetize it, I feel a sense of accomplishment. To have the company do this ruins the fun.

 Envihon wrote:
One thing that keeps coming up as a counter point is being able to pose the model like an action figure...when did this become an expectation for GW products? I thought one of the signatures for awesome skill was the ability to model a miniature in certain freeze frame-like way and then paint it. To make the static look fluid...not the ability to have kung-fu action.

The ability to easily swap out weapons and equipment I also understand but again, I thought this was also a skill to develop as a hobbyist through magnetization, not a requirement of GW.

To require these out of the company instead of developing one's skill kind of kills the hobby for me. I love it when I am able to capture a miniature in an awesome pose or magnetize it, I feel a sense of accomplishment. To have the company do this ruins the fun.

Adding posability and built-in option swapping vastly increases possibilities for modeling. Instead of focusing strictly on the pose, you can spend more time on the base, etc. Ditto on the option swapping.
Sure, posing is a skill and it takes less skill to pose a Leviathan, but to say that GW kits have the "feature" of not being posable is... at best it's laughable.

 Envihon wrote:
One thing that keeps coming up as a counter point is being able to pose the model like an action figure...when did this become an expectation for GW products? I thought one of the signatures for awesome skill was the ability to model a miniature in certain freeze frame-like way and then paint it. To make the static look fluid...not the ability to have kung-fu action.

I'm not really sure what you mean here. Are you referring to a choice of poses prior to gluing, or the ability to move parts of the model even after it's been put together?

If the latter, I don't particularly mind.

If the former, I think it would be nice if GW's characters didn't have fixed poses. I speak here as someone who doesn't have great skill with green-stuff or precise cutting. So, I'm basically stuck using the stock position - or else stuck with a model that either had a dislocated shoulder/elbow, or is suffering from massive tumours.

I mean, why is it that most of my basic troopers have a variety of poses, yet most characters are stuck with a single pose? It just seems backwards to me.

 Envihon wrote:
One thing that keeps coming up as a counter point is being able to pose the model like an action figure...when did this become an expectation for GW products? I thought one of the signatures for awesome skill was the ability to model a miniature in certain freeze frame-like way and then paint it. To make the static look fluid...not the ability to have kung-fu action.

The ability to easily swap out weapons and equipment I also understand but again, I thought this was also a skill to develop as a hobbyist through magnetization, not a requirement of GW.

To require these out of the company instead of developing one's skill kind of kills the hobby for me. I love it when I am able to capture a miniature in an awesome pose or magnetize it, I feel a sense of accomplishment. To have the company do this ruins the fun.

Because possibility and swapping out options are definitely things that makes the Leviathan better than the Knight. Have you seen how static the Knight is? Just because you enjoy magnetising models doesn't mean every body has the time, skill, will, patience etc to do so. Being able to swap out options is definitely a bonus. GW probably just don't do it because they think 'we don't need to give them options. They can just buy a second kit...'

And what the above two people said. Keep missing good responses while I'm typing my own out...

vipoid wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
One thing that keeps coming up as a counter point is being able to pose the model like an action figure...when did this become an expectation for GW products? I thought one of the signatures for awesome skill was the ability to model a miniature in certain freeze frame-like way and then paint it. To make the static look fluid...not the ability to have kung-fu action.

I'm not really sure what you mean here. Are you referring to a choice of poses prior to gluing, or the ability to move parts of the model even after it's been put together?

If the latter, I don't particularly mind.

If the former, I think it would be nice if GW's characters didn't have fixed poses. I speak here as someone who doesn't have great skill with green-stuff or precise cutting. So, I'm basically stuck using the stock position - or else stuck with a model that either had a dislocated shoulder/elbow, or is suffering from massive tumours.

I mean, why is it that most of my basic troopers have a variety of poses, yet most characters are stuck with a single pose? It just seems backwards to me.

I did mean after it has been glued and put together, you can still pose it like the Leviathan. I just never had that expectation really, I know what I am buying when I buy a GW product and that is a miniature that I will have to glue in a certain action pose and that is the pose it will have.

Addressing your other point, I feel your pain on the characters but I take it as a chance to model my own character instead of using the standard GW kit for it but again, I love the thrill of kit bashing and customization like when I made my own Grey Knights Librarian instead of using the Fine Cast Librarian in regular Terminator armor instead of Grey Knight Terminator armor. The only thing I don't do this with is Named Characters that have their own kit but I tend to shy away from using named Characters for that reason, I like to customize my miniatures. I do have a few for scenario missions but that is it. I understand the frustration for this but the only thing I can think of as a reason is that GW is trying to make them iconic? So that people can just look and say that is definitely this or that is definitely this character from the book I just read. Crappy excuse but the only reasoning I can think of which is as I said, take a chance to evolve as a hobbyist.

ImAGeek wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
One thing that keeps coming up as a counter point is being able to pose the model like an action figure...when did this become an expectation for GW products? I thought one of the signatures for awesome skill was the ability to model a miniature in certain freeze frame-like way and then paint it. To make the static look fluid...not the ability to have kung-fu action.

The ability to easily swap out weapons and equipment I also understand but again, I thought this was also a skill to develop as a hobbyist through magnetization, not a requirement of GW.

To require these out of the company instead of developing one's skill kind of kills the hobby for me. I love it when I am able to capture a miniature in an awesome pose or magnetize it, I feel a sense of accomplishment. To have the company do this ruins the fun.

Because possibility and swapping out options are definitely things that makes the Leviathan better than the Knight. Have you seen how static the Knight is? Just because you enjoy magnetising models doesn't mean every body has the time, skill, will, patience etc to do so. Being able to swap out options is definitely a bonus. GW probably just don't do it because they think 'we don't need to give them options. They can just buy a second kit...'

And what the above two people said. Keep missing good responses while I'm typing my own out...

These response seems to have some major assumptions and I have never seen a kit, barring a particular character with a set stat line, that skimps on the bits. The Knight comes with both load outs to get and I understand magnetization takes sometime but to accuse them automatically of money grubbing seems like a bit of a stretch. And the Knight I built does not look static and there are ways to really make the Knight look awesome but the kit provides several ways and stages to pose the Knight in a position you like before committing to pose. I have also seen some awesome ways people have modeled the Knight into awesome positions that make it look like it is about to move.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
One thing that keeps coming up as a counter point is being able to pose the model like an action figure...when did this become an expectation for GW products? I thought one of the signatures for awesome skill was the ability to model a miniature in certain freeze frame-like way and then paint it. To make the static look fluid...not the ability to have kung-fu action.

The ability to easily swap out weapons and equipment I also understand but again, I thought this was also a skill to develop as a hobbyist through magnetization, not a requirement of GW.

To require these out of the company instead of developing one's skill kind of kills the hobby for me. I love it when I am able to capture a miniature in an awesome pose or magnetize it, I feel a sense of accomplishment. To have the company do this ruins the fun.

Adding posability and built-in option swapping vastly increases possibilities for modeling. Instead of focusing strictly on the pose, you can spend more time on the base, etc. Ditto on the option swapping.
Sure, posing is a skill and it takes less skill to pose a Leviathan, but to say that GW kits have the "feature" of not being posable is... at best it's laughable.

I wouldn't say that I meant it as a feature but it isn't something that I assumed that GW would ever do. They are pretty open about the fact that these are suppose to be static miniatures that you model in a certain way to make them look awesome that is why I don't understand where people make this an expectation since GW has never advertised it as such. It seems like the argument is that since the Leviathan does that means all miniature companies should do it regardless of what product they are trying to sell. It isn't something that I would hold as a valid point over GW to point out why they are a bad company but people continue to do so when there are other problems more worthy to tackle.

You can objectively discuss quality, it's just people go too far with it and start acting like the subjective points like aesthetics are objective. I don't care how ugly you think a Taurox is... that's a subjective point

No one has said that every company should make possible miniatures. They've said its ONE part of why the Leviathan is better than the IK. And when I didn't mean the Knight kit didn't come with both load outs, I meant it's not designed for the weapons to be switchable, hence the 'they'll buy a new kit'.

 ImAGeek wrote:
No one has said that every company should make possible miniatures. They've said its ONE part of why the Leviathan is better than the IK. And when I didn't mean the Knight kit didn't come with both load outs, I meant it's not designed for the weapons to be switchable, hence the 'they'll buy a new kit'.

I still seeing as it offering two different kinds of products. I still see this as being overly cynical and jaded especially with the amount that magnetization has taken a hold of the hobby. Magnetization is also more cost effective and less time consuming than buying a whole new kit that you have to fully paint another kit. I just don't see this as an ultimatum of just get over it or buy another kit.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm all for magnetisation, I have some magnets sitting on my hobby desk (they were meant for my SoH Contemptor but I'll probably use the, on Hordes Warbeast stuff now). But not everyone might feel comfortable doing it, so the option to change weapons etc on a model would be nice. What I was saying is Games Workshops logic is probably 'why bother making weapons interchangeable? They can buy another kit'. That's not my logic at all.

Magnetizing kits like the IK is extremely difficult. My opinion is "why bother when company X makes a customizable kit?"

Is it even possible to magnatize the IK out of the box? I was under the impression that the weapons shared a lot of integral parts, meaning its designed not to be magnetized.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Is it even possible to magnatize the IK out of the box? I was under the impression that the weapons shared a lot of integral parts, meaning its designed not to be magnetized.

The gun weapon does as it has different cable positions and stuff.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Is it even possible to magnatize the IK out of the box? I was under the impression that the weapons shared a lot of integral parts, meaning its designed not to be magnetized.

It isn't a straight forward magnetization job but it can and has been done. There are plenty of tutorials that are on Youtube on how to do. It mostly involves having to magnetize both kinds of barrels and also magnetizing the corresponding ammo storage.

 Envihon wrote:
They are pretty open about the fact that these are suppose to be static miniatures that you model in a certain way to make them look awesome that is why I don't understand where people make this an expectation since GW has never advertised it as such.

Nobody expects GW to do it, it's just an argument against the claim that GW miniatures are some vastly superior art form that no other company can compete with. A model that can be posed any time you like and have its weapons swapped without having to do any magnetization work yourself is superior to an otherwise-identical kit that lacks those things. And since GW has decided not to include those features that is one way in which GW's kits are lower quality than the competition.

Wait are we talking reposing the leviathans after painting like action figures?
That I'd agree has no barring on the quality discussion.


The insane amount of possibility also allows you to simply glue your model in an almost infinite amount of poses that makes GWs ultra static knight look like a toy or baby's first robot kit. That is a serious drawback in the GW knight.

Isn't the knight a multi part model like marines are?

Makumba wrote:
Isn't the knight a multi part model like marines are?

It is but all of the joints are static (i.e. cannot be changed without a great deal of work) and the weapons share parts so unless you want to take the time to do a good amount of magnetizing (some of it not easy) you choose one weapon and that's it. If you want to move the arms at all, you have to let them hang, loose and floppy otherwise you have to glue them in place. You can twist the torso but you'll have do some creative magnet work there as well otherwise you have to glue it. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice kit, I loved putting it together (I have 3 regular ones and all 4 of the FW ones too) but it pales in comparison to the Leviathan as a quality modeling/wargaming kit.

That is kind of a stupid, almost as bad as a snap fit model only for more cash and larger. No one has an original knight here, so I didn't knew.

The big problem for me is that GW's kits are just detailed in the wrong way. Lots of skulls and tiny bits are not detail. They are fiddly and annoying. The Chaos Chosen in DV, for example, while they looked awesome looked like they had tons of detail added just to add detail, but they are too small to see it. That level of detail is fine for like 54mm figures, but not 28mm where it's hard to see all the tiny intricate bits and pieces. They don't need that kind of "bling".

WayneTheGame wrote:
The big problem for me is that GW's kits are just detailed in the wrong way. Lots of skulls and tiny bits are not detail. They are fiddly and annoying. The Chaos Chosen in DV, for example, while they looked awesome looked like they had tons of detail added just to add detail, but they are too small to see it. That level of detail is fine for like 54mm figures, but not 28mm where it's hard to see all the tiny intricate bits and pieces. They don't need that kind of "bling".

I will go along with this on the Knight except they had it very detailed from a mechanical stand point with everything making it look like a working machine. I was almost sad to put all the armor plates over it all covering all this detail. Despite people's criticism of it, the Imperial Knight is an awesomely detailed kit and can come out pretty awesome if you know what you are doing. Might not be like the Leviathon, but it probably is my favorite model that I have done so far.