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 Xenomancers wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
The thought of 2w marines disguist me. But for all of you promoting it, have you considered marines getting a 2+ armour instead. Has the same effect against small arms as 2w and even helps against plasmas.

I think if you really had to improve marines durability, that would be the better solution. I would however prefer a small point decrease instead.

Why does the thought of a 600 lb space marine in power armor having 2 wounds disgust you? Compared to a 1 wound catachan in a tea shirt at 200 lb? or 95 lb kabalite? These models are not being properly represented - that kinda disgusts me. Why would you be disgusted by something so obviously right?

It disguists me from a game mechanichal standpoint, not in a fluff way. The game is not capable of representing true bolter porn fluff anyway as that would not make a practical game (1 marine rips aparts tanks and kill normal men or aliens by the dozen). I prefer the game to be fun rather than fluffy, and I just think 2w basic marines would turn small arms pointless. I would be satisfied with points rebalance (5ppm guard, 11ppm marines for example). Otherwise, why roll 40-60dice of lasguns/shootas if they barely kill one marine? I want action!

Okay so - you agree marines are bad - you just want to balance the game differently.

I have no problem with the marine staline/concept at all. I just think many other units are too cheap and marines might be overcosted a point or two. One more attack would be ok though to make them more consistent from shooting to close combat and to make gear like power weapons more compelling.

I care little for the fluff and would not mind if there were more marines on the table as that would look good anyways.

Galef wrote:Ya know what is sad? It looks like GW had this thought (2W Marines) early on when developing 8E.
They also seem to have wanted to make some new Marine models.

But rather than push forward and start 8E with regular Marines having the Primaris stat line with some alternate new sculpts available, GW wussed out and created the Primaris line instead.

I think you're right. GW attempted to address the criticisms often leveled at SM - size, wounds, attacks and underpowered bolters. They've been explicit about Primaris not replacing SM and they've segmented the rules (especially when it comes to transports) so there's now a choice. They even developed some headline fluff to justify these new 'reinforcements'. If it was always the long term plan to replace SM with Primaris then GW have made it very difficult for themselves.

 Brother Castor wrote:

Spoiler:

Galef wrote:Ya know what is sad? It looks like GW had this thought (2W Marines) early on when developing 8E.
They also seem to have wanted to make some new Marine models.

But rather than push forward and start 8E with regular Marines having the Primaris stat line with some alternate new sculpts available, GW wussed out and created the Primaris line instead.

I think you're right. GW attempted to address the criticisms often leveled at SM - size, wounds, attacks and underpowered bolters. They've been explicit about Primaris not replacing SM and they've segmented the rules (especially when it comes to transports) so there's now a choice. They even developed some headline fluff to justify these new 'reinforcements'.

If it was always the long term plan to replace SM with Primaris then GW have made it very difficult for themselves.

Or, they intentionally are making non-Primaris units look poor by comparison, so that when they eventually phase out non-Primaris units, few players will complain.
Maybe, I dunno

They could actually do this decently well by giving Primaris Marines the same options, i.e. Intercessor having the same options as Tactical Marines.
That way, players who haven't bought any Primaris units can just use their existing regular Marines.

-

 Brother Castor wrote:

Galef wrote:Ya know what is sad? It looks like GW had this thought (2W Marines) early on when developing 8E.
They also seem to have wanted to make some new Marine models.

But rather than push forward and start 8E with regular Marines having the Primaris stat line with some alternate new sculpts available, GW wussed out and created the Primaris line instead.

I think you're right. GW attempted to address the criticisms often leveled at SM - size, wounds, attacks and underpowered bolters. They've been explicit about Primaris not replacing SM and they've segmented the rules (especially when it comes to transports) so there's now a choice. They even developed some headline fluff to justify these new 'reinforcements'. If it was always the long term plan to replace SM with Primaris then GW have made it very difficult for themselves.

I'm just curious but where did GW say Primaris aren't going to replace normal marines? More to shut up the people making those claims then for my own reassurance

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm just curious but where did GW say Primaris aren't going to replace normal marines?

In the Primaris Space Marines FAQ:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/15/primaris-space-marines-faq-may15gw-homepage-post-2/

"Are all my current Space Marine miniatures redundant now?

No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements."

 Brother Castor wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm just curious but where did GW say Primaris aren't going to replace normal marines?

In the Primaris Space Marines FAQ:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/15/primaris-space-marines-faq-may15gw-homepage-post-2/

"Are all my current Space Marine miniatures redundant now?

No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements."

Yet in lore they also have said that normal marines can be "uplifted" to primaris if i'm not mistaken so 2-3 years down the line I can see normal marines being phased out....

I wish they had just grew a pair and said look, here a new true scale Marines, this is the new statline for marines, we will continue to sell normal sized marines for the foreseeable future, have fun...

Instead of coming up with some handwavium lore and leaving base marines as cannon fodder on the tabletop

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What you're supposed to do is buff/nerf according the decent units in your codex. Those would be the units that, while they don't actively hurt your list and they can probably perform, you're likely better off with a better choice.

Right now Vanilla Marines, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels are in a strange spot, as they don't have these units. It's either good or bust. The only real example I can think up would be the some of the Vets but that's about it. Every other codex doesn't suffer this issue because, as Martel did correctly point out, nobody else bases their units around a particular type of model and then price accordingly. CSM sorta does, but then has more differing units like Possessed and Obliterators and the Cult Marines.

Re Blood Angels - isn;t there a certain captain that does very well against most stuff?

Because we have all the snowflake rules for the super special chapters this hurts both them and Vanilla marines.

Just keep the very few actual special units and fold the rest back into the main Codex as a Marine option - so generic Marine Cavalry, Psychic dreadnoughts Termintors with full weapon options, Tac can have chainswords - catger for more than a couple of overblown Chapters. You don't then need to restrict the generic marine weapons etc.

Much more in keeping with the actual fluff of the variety of the Astartes.

Halve all damage suffered on them and have them ignore any damage from weapons that are -AP1

 Corennus wrote:
Halve all damage suffered on them and have them ignore any damage from weapons that are -AP1

So, in other words, screw off Nurgle Daemons? The only sources of AP in a pure Nurgle Daemons list are GUO (which are bad) and Heralds (which are good, but also only 4 wounds apiece unless you take unique ones).

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
Halve all damage suffered on them and have them ignore any damage from weapons that are -AP1

So, in other words, screw off Nurgle Daemons? The only sources of AP in a pure Nurgle Daemons list are GUO (which are bad) and Heralds (which are good, but also only 4 wounds apiece unless you take unique ones).

I think he means ignoring 1 modifier per AP. So Termies treat AP-2 as -1 and AP-1 as 0.
I'd like to see the 5++ be removed (as it's pretty irrelevant on 2+ armour) and replace with a rule that reduces damage by 1 to min 1.
It essentially give them +1W, but only against multi-damage weapons. D1 weapons sill still treat Termies as only having 2Ws

-

 Corennus wrote:
Halve all damage suffered on them and have them ignore any damage from weapons that are -AP1

Easier to just give them 1+ armour save.

 Galef wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
Halve all damage suffered on them and have them ignore any damage from weapons that are -AP1

So, in other words, screw off Nurgle Daemons? The only sources of AP in a pure Nurgle Daemons list are GUO (which are bad) and Heralds (which are good, but also only 4 wounds apiece unless you take unique ones).

I think he means ignoring 1 modifier per AP. So Termies treat AP-2 as -1 and AP-1 as 0.
I'd like to see the 5++ be removed (as it's pretty irrelevant on 2+ armour) and replace with a rule that reduces damage by 1 to min 1.
It essentially give them +1W, but only against multi-damage weapons. D1 weapons sill still treat Termies as only having 2Ws

-

The way it was phrased, he seemed to be saying they completely ignore damage from AP0 things.

If that's what was intended, feth no.
If I misread it and he just wants them to have a 1+, that's fine.

Just a +1

They basically need to be better than Primaris marines now.

 Corennus wrote:
Just a +1

They basically need to be better than Primaris marines now.

Yeah, I'd get behind that.

But what would you do with the invuln? You'd need AP-5 (-6 in cover) to hit it.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
Just a +1

They basically need to be better than Primaris marines now.

Yeah, I'd get behind that.

But what would you do with the invuln? You'd need AP-5 (-6 in cover) to hit it.

Drop it - its not then needed

1+ Armour for Termies is a pretty good fix, but it make the 5++ even more irrelevant.
Give Termies 1+ armour and swap the 5++ for reducing damage by 1. So overcharged plasma only does 1 damage

Marine units cannot be fixed by blanket stat changes as they propagate to too many special snow-flake chapters.

Those DG termies hit hard as feth but that's because they have a million special rules/weapons ontop of a basic termie. You boost that basic termie and then those DG termies become broken.

The design of SM is dumb. Using the same unit across (6-7?) codexes all with their own special rules/weapons was a terribly lazy design and can't be addressed without addressing the needs of those units in each damn codex.

The only viable fix is to give special rules per codex, like strats or tactics, that attempt to balance that particular armies build. CSM being able to saturate with special weapons means a 2+BS disproportionately benefits them. +1 wound turns those nurgle guys into something really scary. Both of those onto UM termies barely makes them playable...

[edit: spelling]

bananathug wrote:
Marine units cannot be fixed by blanket stat changes as they propagate to too many special snow-flake chapters.

Those DG termies hit hard as feth but that's because they have a million special rules/weapons ontop of a basic termie. You boost that basic termie and then those DG termies become broken.

Agreed, which is why you apply the blanket stat changes, them repoint those special snow-flake units appropriately.
Give all TEQs 1+ armour, then DG Termies need a points increase, obviously. Convenient that they have their own datasheet in their own codex to do this with.

-

 Galef wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Marine units cannot be fixed by blanket stat changes as they propagate to too many special snow-flake chapters.

Those DG termies hit hard as feth but that's because they have a million special rules/weapons ontop of a basic termie. You boost that basic termie and then those DG termies become broken.

Agreed, which is why you apply the blanket stat changes, them repoint those special snow-flake units appropriately.
Give all TEQs 1+ armour, then DG Termies need a points increase, obviously. Convenient that they have their own datasheet in their own codex to do this with.

-

It's easier to give out a fix that doesn't require another analysis on top of a fix to see if there's even more fixes.

That's why I'm strictly promoting WS/BS2+ on all Terminators bar the Troop Grey Knight ones. You don't need to really adjust price on Chaos variants once you've done that!

Fixing Terminators is easy

They have a 2+ save. No modifiers for anything. A straight 2+ save.

So they get hit by a bolter round. 2+ save

They get hit by an AP-4 weapon. 2+ save

 Corennus wrote:
Fixing Terminators is easy

They have a 2+ save. No modifiers for anything. A straight 2+ save.

So they get hit by a bolter round. 2+ save

They get hit by an AP-4 weapon. 2+ save

Or in other words are waaaaaay to durable for specific anti armour and anti Teq weapons and essentially making them obsolete and adding to the fact that massed Lasgun/ autogun/ splinter/bolterfire will be the solution against terminators which is allready the problem?
Instead why not do the following. Any weapon with ap-2 or -1 get's treated as having no effect and a buff of the invuln to 4+?

Make it 21 pts per model, drop SB to 1 pt.
Base loadout cost is 34 ppm.

Working from intercessor: 18 pt + 1(+1 Sv) - 1(-1 M) + 2(5++) + 1(Deepstrike) = 21 ppm
Working from aggressor: 21 pt +1(Deepstrike) - 1(-1 T) = 21 ppm

Bananarama wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm just curious but where did GW say Primaris aren't going to replace normal marines?

In the Primaris Space Marines FAQ:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/15/primaris-space-marines-faq-may15gw-homepage-post-2/

"Are all my current Space Marine miniatures redundant now?

No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements."

Yet in lore they also have said that normal marines can be "uplifted" to primaris if i'm not mistaken so 2-3 years down the line I can see normal marines being phased out....

I wish they had just grew a pair and said look, here a new true scale Marines, this is the new statline for marines, we will continue to sell normal sized marines for the foreseeable future, have fun...

Instead of coming up with some handwavium lore and leaving base marines as cannon fodder on the tabletop

Or regular space marines become the normal marines / intitate levels and primaris become elites core of the chapter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:
Make it 21 pts per model, drop SB to 1 pt.
Base loadout cost is 34 ppm.

Working from intercessor: 18 pt + 1(+1 Sv) - 1(-1 M) + 2(5++) + 1(Deepstrike) = 21 ppm
Working from aggressor: 21 pt +1(Deepstrike) - 1(-1 T) = 21 ppm

Options to also give :
Give Terminator's Relentless special rule

Giving terminators options to take older technology or heavy plasma cannons (so buff plasma cannons to be the best plasma weapon for the space marines....) (Cyclone missile launcher fires two rockets +1 strength -1 ap)

Giving termies reasonable stats for 'veterancy'. Ensure their costs are not abysmal, give them options to take land raiders as a transport (and droppings it costs tremendously)

Be rewarded for taking 10 termies in a squad.

Two simple changes (I hope they would be), would be to insert some guff about the armour being designed based on resisting hazardous environments, such as toxins or micro-meteorites. Then say whenever the model with terminator armour takes a wounding hit, reduce the wounds taken by 1 to a minimum of 1.

2 wound and to a lesser extent D3 wound weapons would be far less of a problem.

The second would be a universal marine boost. Any Astarte's bolter has an additional -1 to account for the larger calibers used. Bolt pistols, Bolters and Storm Bolters to -1, Bolt Rifles to -2. Chaos and Imperial.

So, i got bored and decided to see how different buffs would change the number of wounds terminators would take from a few different weapons. All numbers and figures in the attached pic for 100 shots (not damage done ) with a BS3+.

Has anyone suggested increasing their toughness? I always find it strange they have the same toughness as their power armoured brethren and it'd help with small arms fire getting through.

It wouldn't be as good as giving them a reroll failed saves. if you look at the pic above, bumping them to T5 would be the same against S4 weapons as the opponent getting a -1 to their wound rolls,

Djangomatic82 wrote:
It wouldn't be as good as giving them a reroll failed saves. if you look at the pic above, bumping them to T5 would be the same against S4 weapons as the opponent getting a -1 to their wound rolls,

Do they need reroll failed saves though?

I thought the intention of this topic was to make Terminators strong against small arms fire (as they should be). Lowering the damage of weapons by 1 makes them stronger against multi-damage weapons (that are designed to be strong against them) and reroll failed saves makes them stronger against all weaponry.

SIA ammo like deathwatch, but priced like normal marines. Pretty good start.

Djangomatic82 wrote:
It wouldn't be as good as giving them a reroll failed saves. if you look at the pic above, bumping them to T5 would be the same against S4 weapons as the opponent getting a -1 to their wound rolls,

Sure, but re-rolls are a gak lazy game design mechanic (one GW is unfortunately stoked about), and adds time to an already lengthy game. The re-roll is the powdered cheese thrown on something because someone couldn't be assed to create something decent.