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 Galef wrote:
I'm not talking about the fluff that 1 Marine can take on 100 Orks by himself.
I'm talking about the fluff that a Marine is better than an Ork in general. The rules do indeed capture this. Marine have better BS and armour and access to better weapons.

Terminators, likewise, have better armour than a Marine in the fluff. Hence the 2+ over 3+. Whether that translates into "true" improved durability in the game has no barring on whether the fluff was the driving force behind that decision.

I could see an argument be made that since Terminators are veteran Marines, that they could in fact have WS/BS2+. I was merely pointing out that there is contradiction to this rationale if you think about heavier weapons like powerfists, which have -1 to hit for being bulky and slow.
But since Termies would also get this -1 to hit while using these kinds of weapons, I can agree that suffering the -1 to hit twice wouldn't make sense.

If you want to say the GW isn't very good at translating rules from fluff, I agree with that. But saying "fluff has never mattered" is just nonsense.
Stats and special abilities exist because a unit can do X in the fluff, so they need a rule/stat that can do X in the game.

-

Ok then explain why an Imperial guard veteran having a BS3+ yet a standard squad is BS4+ is ok and fluffy
But a marine veteran hand chosen for the honour of wearing terminator armour due to his experience and skill has to stay WS3+, BS3+ like a scout, tac marine.
So guardsmen get as good as spacemarines with experience but marines who life longer and fight more don't show any improvement in skill?
Terminator armour isn't slow as in you can't move or block in it, it's slow as in you can't run, jump in it.
Also the old 2nd edition style fluff basically said it was so armoured you didn't need to and could fight better as you just concentrate on fighting and trust the armour.

Ice_can wrote:
This is 8th edition having 2 versions of the same weapon with different points and stats isn't going to happen outside of relics.

Unless you're AM, which then makes you eligible for all kinds of special treatments like budget plasmas and meltas.

 skchsan wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
This is 8th edition having 2 versions of the same weapon with different points and stats isn't going to happen outside of relics.

Unless you're AM, which then makes you eligible for all kinds of special treatments like budget plasmas and meltas.

Well originally scions only payed the BS4+ prices.
But plasma scions weren't broken honest

Ice_can wrote:

Ok then explain why an Imperial guard veteran having a BS3+ yet a standard squad is BS4+ is ok and fluffy
But a marine veteran hand chosen for the honour of wearing terminator armour due to his experience and skill has to stay WS3+, BS3+ like a scout, tac marine.
So guardsmen get as good as spacemarines with experience but marines who life longer and fight more don't show any improvement in skill?

Because if you continue with that logic, chapter masters would have WS/BS -5, meaning they could never miss regardless of modifiers.
You cannot simply say X is better than Y, so it gets +1 stat.
You should think of it like this: A Guard Veteran is far better than an average guardsman who has little to no training.
A Space marine veteran is better than a regular Marine, but that regular marine does have training, so the "gap" is not a wide.
Not enough for a full stat upgrade, at least.

Having said that, I am really starting to want Termies to be WS/BS2+ now. The idea is growing on me

-

Ice_can wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
This is 8th edition having 2 versions of the same weapon with different points and stats isn't going to happen outside of relics.

Unless you're AM, which then makes you eligible for all kinds of special treatments like budget plasmas and meltas.

Well originally scions only payed the BS4+ prices.
But plasma scions weren't broken honest

Before the BS+3 plasma pt increase, 1-for-1 officer to command squad and rule of three hot-fix, they were broken as you can possibly get. You could literally run 18 MT CMS with 4 plasmagun, deepstirke into double tap range and it could easily take out 1500 pt's worth of stuff in 1 turn, with no chance of retaliation. The ONLY way was to box yourself in with enough screens so that the scions couldn't get into <12" range, which frankly at the time, was a feat only AM was capable of doing without paying 400~500 pts of TAX aka cannon fodder troops with no defensive OR offensive capabilities.

This was 144 overcharged plasmashots with reroll 1's for most - so that's

144 shots @ BS3+ = 96 Hits, 48 Misses
of 48 Misses, statistically there are 24 1's; reroll 24's 1's = 16 additional hits
So that's 112 hits, of which wounds T4's on 2+ = 93.33 successfully wounds
93.33 successful wounds against Sv+3 = 77.78 saves rolls failed
which translates to 155.56 damage incurred in a single turn.

And this shenanigans only costed 1,152 pts (16 ppm for plas cms x 4 per unit x 18 units) back then when plasmas costed 7 pts per pop.

IF the stormtrooper doctrine came out before the nerfs....

144 shots @ BS3+ = 96 Hits, 48 Misses;
-24 of 144 shots = 6's; procs stormtrooper = 16 additional hits
-24 of 48 misses = 1's; reroll 24's 1's = 16 additional hits
--chance rerolls are 6's = 4, procs stormtrooper = 2.67 additional hits
Total hits = 96+16+16+2.67 = 130.67 hits

130.67 overcharged plasma hits against T4, Sv+3:
-108.89 successful wounds
-90.74 saves rolls failed
Total damage = 181.48 damage incurred in a single turn.

WOW.

 Galef wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Ok then explain why an Imperial guard veteran having a BS3+ yet a standard squad is BS4+ is ok and fluffy
But a marine veteran hand chosen for the honour of wearing terminator armour due to his experience and skill has to stay WS3+, BS3+ like a scout, tac marine.
So guardsmen get as good as spacemarines with experience but marines who life longer and fight more don't show any improvement in skill?

Because if you continue with that logic, chapter masters would have WS/BS -5, meaning they could never miss regardless of modifiers.
You cannot simply say X is better than Y, so it gets +1 stat.
You should think of it like this: A Guard Veteran is far better than an average guardsman who has little to no training.
A Space marine veteran is better than a regular Marine, but that regular marine does have training, so the "gap" is not a wide.
Not enough for a full stat upgrade, at least.

Having said that, I am really starting to want Termies to be WS/BS2+ now. The idea is growing on me

-

Primarchs maybe but actually fluff wise (historical) the fighting skill of 1st company veterans vrs company comanders and chaptor masters isn't really as big as it might appear.
Chaptor masters ect tend to be better leaders, tacticians and more politically suave than straight up better fighters.
Also to some extent their improved skill is showen in the increase in the number of attacks they have.

Once you can kill someone with a single blow the increase in skill is doing it faster with less effort usually not actually being straight up better, hence why higher levels of fighting arts tend to use multiple opponents to train rather than more skilled opponents, they also tend to become very thin on the ground.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
This is 8th edition having 2 versions of the same weapon with different points and stats isn't going to happen outside of relics.

Unless you're AM, which then makes you eligible for all kinds of special treatments like budget plasmas and meltas.

Well originally scions only payed the BS4+ prices.
But plasma scions weren't broken honest

Before the BS+3 plasma pt increase, 1-for-1 officer to command squad and rule of three hot-fix, they were broken as you can possibly get. You could literally run 18 MT CMS with 4 plasmagun, deepstirke into double tap range and it could easily take out 1500 pt's worth of stuff in 1 turn, with no chance of retaliation. The ONLY way was to box yourself in with enough screens so that the scions couldn't get into <12" range, which frankly at the time, was a feat only AM was capable of doing without paying 400~500 pts of TAX aka cannon fodder troops with no defensive OR offensive capabilities.

This was 144 overcharged plasmashots with reroll 1's for most.

Sorry if it wasn't clear but scions paying BS4+ prices being fire was pure sarcasm. How even GW couldn't see that was broken before they shipped the codex I don't know.

I think terminators are generally decent - they picked up a second wound, got double shots (typically), and can assault after deep striking, which is now risk free, all for about the same price. That's a hell of an improvement in my book.

If there's one thing I think that needs fixing on terminators, it's the invlun save. It's largely useless, as few things that you shoot at terminators will cause their 2+ armor save to be worse than a 5++. I mean, anti-personnel AP4 weapons are rare, so the only time the base terminator invlun is helpful is when people are shooting melta at them, which is infrequent.

I'd probably change the terminator invlun to negate an enemy's AP value, (Or add 1 to their save, whichever you like).

Cost reduction in necessary, 2+ armour are no efficient as they were in previous edition, maybe a -8 pts reduction would be appropriated.

Termies armour allows to ignore the -1 penalty to hit for fists and the like melee weapons
Storm bolter may have special issue ammunition
2 heavy weapons per 5 model
T armour allows to ignore the -1 to hit for move and shoot with heavy weapons.

I think this would fix terminators without breaking the lore.

Honestly,
3 + terminator squads would be better.
A point reduction on the base Terminator modell, if it stays around 6pts, if it get's buffed i'd say around 4pts.
A la Carte weaponry for all Terminators, not just CSM.
Heavy Weapon 1 in 3 and another 1 when the squad is 5 + in size.

For those who cry plasma spam, let me remind you:
A) they are combi weapons, therefore -1 applies on shooting.
B) A combiplasma is 15pts. even at a 6 pts reduced Terminator that would cost you per terminator 43 pts.
C) even with min 3 squads such a squad would clock in at 129 pts.
D) Rule of three is in 90% of the cases a thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I think terminators are generally decent - they picked up a second wound, got double shots (typically), and can assault after deep striking, which is now risk free, all for about the same price. That's a hell of an improvement in my book.

If there's one thing I think that needs fixing on terminators, it's the invlun save. It's largely useless, as few things that you shoot at terminators will cause their 2+ armor save to be worse than a 5++. I mean, anti-personnel AP4 weapons are rare, so the only time the base terminator invlun is helpful is when people are shooting melta at them, which is infrequent.

I'd probably change the terminator invlun to negate an enemy's AP value, (Or add 1 to their save, whichever you like).

That is all fine and Dandy, but plasma is everywhere. Overwatch is a thing. Melee stats are Shiet on Terminators.
There are more units that can do the same thing as Terminators far cheaper and better.
The second wound matters not because all weaponry fired at them does either d3 or flat 2 damage, therfore insta removing a modell that costs nearly a base squad.
They are easily bubblewrapped, to the point where you can basically ignore them after you tied them down in squad in melee.
Movement of 5.

Terminators come in boxes of 5 I can't see GW not following it's rule of 1 box equals minimum unit size.

I don't see GW allowing alacart weapons given they are two seperate squad entries and boxes

I don't think 2 HW at 5 man is likely but no objection. Though I could see it being 1 terminator (not sargent) may replace his storm bolter with either a heavy flamour or assualt cannon. Addition Another terminator may be equipped with a cyclone missile launcher. As you can buil all of those options from the basic terminator kit.

I wasn't suggesting that they are I'm more warning that people may start breaking out that comparison.
Also you only get the -1 if you fire botg if your only shooting the plasma no -1.

Ice_can wrote:
Terminators come in boxes of 5 I can't see GW not following it's rule of 1 box equals minimum unit size.

I don't see GW allowing alacart weapons given they are two seperate squad entries and boxes

I don't think 2 HW at 5 man is likely but no objection. Though I could see it being 1 terminator (not sargent) may replace his storm bolter with either a heavy flamour or assualt cannon. Addition Another terminator may be equipped with a cyclone missile launcher. As you can buil all of those options from the basic terminator kit.

I wasn't suggesting that they are I'm more warning that people may start breaking out that comparison.
Also you only get the -1 if you fire botg if your only shooting the plasma no -1.

Honestly their new one box one min squad policy is actually still not upheld.Khonre berzerkers come still in bigger squads. GSC come with a hwt and 10 dudes, etc.
Also this leads to stuff like the massively overpriced, moneywise, nurgle Terminators.
Indeed the -1 only applies when you use both, but frankly why wouldn't you use both on a unit that allready suffers ROF deficites like no other?

Terminators come in boxes of 5 I can't see GW not following it's rule of 1 box equals minimum unit size.

Ok, and? I have these models at my house. What does GW not making rules have to do with me playing this game?

pelicaniforce wrote:

Terminators come in boxes of 5 I can't see GW not following it's rule of 1 box equals minimum unit size.

Ok, and? I have these models at my house. What does GW not making rules have to do with me playing this game?

Read the whole thread and its clear enough.

People are saying GW should make the minimum unit size smaller.
GW made minimum unit size equal one box of mini's or half a box of mini's for basic troops.
Why would they not right the rules around how they sell their miniatures as the point is to sell mini's and rules to make money.
Random squad size that doesn't match the mini's they sell isn't likely.

Why are you still taking about GW? GW doesn’t come to my town and play games with house rules.

What elbows said. What about allowing them to reroll their saves. Helps against low AP massed fire and they keep the invulnerable save. Hell, re roll that too.

Andykp wrote:
What elbows said. What about allowing them to reroll their saves. Helps against low AP massed fire and they keep the invulnerable save. Hell, re roll that too.

They're already durable enough to small arms.

Heavy Weapon 1 in 3 and another 1 when the squad is 5 + in size.

Though I could see it being 1 terminator (not sargent) may replace his storm bolter with either a heavy flamour or assualt cannon. Addition Another terminator may be equipped with a cyclone missile launcher.

I think mixed heavies is most fluffy, and it’s good because of the modern box. In the real world a fire team could have a machine gun, a grenade launcher, a marksman, and a TOW, but it wouldn’t usually have 2x machine gun. For me it really breaks the fourth wall of the game to always have 2x assault cannons, or whatever, because that’s the most gaming efficient thing to do.

Mixed heavy weapons do have to be cheap since you won’t use them optimally.

A la Carte weaponry for all Terminators, not just CSM.

One consideration is that especially for Ultramarines and their friends it’s pretty clear these squad members are supposed to ha e regimented military functions, like the basic four storm bolters are supposed to give cover to the squad’s main weapon that does the real killing, they have to be kind of ordinary and just have lots of snap-fire suitable ammo.

So for when a la carte is available I want to make sure 3x - 4x storm bolters with 1-2 heavies are still good. That’s why I’d like them to situationally get -1 ap against less elite enemies.

Storm Bolters just need a generic rule like most Bolt Weapons. I disagree with AP-1 on their Storm Bolters.

I think that the power fist, which is mandotory for many terminators, may be one of the main problems when it comes to costing terminators.

In 7th, two terminators were (almost) guaranteed to kill any vehicle that was not a land raider.
In 8th, they have 11 attacks hitting on 4+, wounding most vehicles on 3+ some tanks on 4+ and leaving them with a 6+ armor save or 5+ invulnerable save. That's about 2 wounds for 4 dmg average.

Heavy infantry might be different, but not that much.

Nah I don’t want any more special rules on the basic tactical squad, to say nothing of the marines with even more rules. I want anyone with two attacks to get -1 ap against anyone with one attack, and anyone with three attacks to get -1 always against anyone with one or two attacks, etcetera.

That way it’s not a special rule, it’s just a rule in the game that everyone knows is always in effect.

Trollbert wrote:
I think that the power fist, which is mandotory for many terminators, may be one of the main problems when it comes to costing terminators.

In 7th, two terminators were (almost) guaranteed to kill any vehicle that was not a land raider.
In 8th, they have 11 attacks hitting on 4+, wounding most vehicles on 3+ some tanks on 4+ and leaving them with a 6+ armor save or 5+ invulnerable save. That's about 2 wounds for 4 dmg average.

Heavy infantry might be different, but not that much.

Yeah we can drop the -1 to hit for PFs. At this point if you have four power fists in a marine list they’re probably all in a TDA squad, so there’s no point in having a special exception to the exception. Power weapons can get buffed to compensate, they need it when you’ve got 1 attack or even 2 attack models keeping their chainswords instead of upgrading.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Nah I don’t want any more special rules on the basic tactical squad, to say nothing of the marines with even more rules. I want anyone with two attacks to get -1 ap against anyone with one attack, and anyone with three attacks to get -1 always against anyone with one or two attacks, etcetera.

That way it’s not a special rule, it’s just a rule in the game that everyone knows is always in effect.

Trollbert wrote:
I think that the power fist, which is mandotory for many terminators, may be one of the main problems when it comes to costing terminators.

In 7th, two terminators were (almost) guaranteed to kill any vehicle that was not a land raider.
In 8th, they have 11 attacks hitting on 4+, wounding most vehicles on 3+ some tanks on 4+ and leaving them with a 6+ armor save or 5+ invulnerable save. That's about 2 wounds for 4 dmg average.

Heavy infantry might be different, but not that much.

Yeah we can drop the -1 to hit for PFs. At this point if you have four power fists in a marine list they’re probably all in a TDA squad, so there’s no point in having a special exception to the exception. Power weapons can get buffed to compensate, they need it when you’ve got 1 attack or even 2 attack models keeping their chainswords instead of upgrading.

I don't think dropping the -1 to hit is enough. If you successfully charge from 9" (27% before rerolls) and get your ~200 points terminator squad into melee with a 150 point Leman Russ, you absolutely want it to be dead. That would mean the average damage per attack of the power fist has to be tripled. If we considered shooting, because melters are gak, it should at least be increased by a factor of ~2.5.

It’s definitely not enough and I think dropping -1 is barely a start. I just try not to not be exhaustive.

I think +1 attack for terminators and normal marines goes almost the whole rest of the way especially combined with the -1 shooting ap for having more attacks that’s up there. Hitting on 3s that’s fairly astoundingly better, although it’s changing the damage by 183%, not the 300% you asked for. I hope your change powerfists to 1+d3 damage, that gets you to 250% damage.

There’s no reason to fix terminators vs vehicles all the way perfectly, because most of the problem comes from the vehicle damage system and the idea of d3 damage in the first place.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Nah I don’t want any more special rules on the basic tactical squad, to say nothing of the marines with even more rules. I want anyone with two attacks to get -1 ap against anyone with one attack, and anyone with three attacks to get -1 always against anyone with one or two attacks, etcetera.

That way it’s not a special rule, it’s just a rule in the game that everyone knows is always in effect.

Trollbert wrote:
I think that the power fist, which is mandotory for many terminators, may be one of the main problems when it comes to costing terminators.

In 7th, two terminators were (almost) guaranteed to kill any vehicle that was not a land raider.
In 8th, they have 11 attacks hitting on 4+, wounding most vehicles on 3+ some tanks on 4+ and leaving them with a 6+ armor save or 5+ invulnerable save. That's about 2 wounds for 4 dmg average.

Heavy infantry might be different, but not that much.

Yeah we can drop the -1 to hit for PFs. At this point if you have four power fists in a marine list they’re probably all in a TDA squad, so there’s no point in having a special exception to the exception. Power weapons can get buffed to compensate, they need it when you’ve got 1 attack or even 2 attack models keeping their chainswords instead of upgrading.

This has been covered so many times but if you change PF Catachan with PF, Admech with PF all get buffed and aggressors already considered a good unit get buffed removing another of the distinctions between agressors and terminators. Make vets WS2+ BS2+ and its a simple one stop shop buff for terminators both loyalist and Chaos and even grey knights, though they probably need more work like most of GK codex.

I didn't propose to fix power fists, I just pointed out that the point cost transition from 7th to 8th failed at that point.

A combination of WS/BS 2+, S5 and 3 attacks for terminators would "fix" power fists on terminators though.

Ice_can wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
Nah I don’t want any more special rules on the basic tactical squad, to say nothing of the marines with even more rules. I want anyone with two attacks to get -1 ap against anyone with one attack, and anyone with three attacks to get -1 always against anyone with one or two attacks, etcetera.

That way it’s not a special rule, it’s just a rule in the game that everyone knows is always in effect.

Trollbert wrote:
I think that the power fist, which is mandotory for many terminators, may be one of the main problems when it comes to costing terminators.

In 7th, two terminators were (almost) guaranteed to kill any vehicle that was not a land raider.
In 8th, they have 11 attacks hitting on 4+, wounding most vehicles on 3+ some tanks on 4+ and leaving them with a 6+ armor save or 5+ invulnerable save. That's about 2 wounds for 4 dmg average.

Heavy infantry might be different, but not that much.

Yeah we can drop the -1 to hit for PFs. At this point if you have four power fists in a marine list they’re probably all in a TDA squad, so there’s no point in having a special exception to the exception. Power weapons can get buffed to compensate, they need it when you’ve got 1 attack or even 2 attack models keeping their chainswords instead of upgrading.

This has been covered so many times but if you change PF Catachan with PF, Admech with PF all get buffed and aggressors already considered a good unit get buffed removing another of the distinctions between agressors and terminators. Make vets WS2+ BS2+ and its a simple one stop shop buff for terminators both loyalist and Chaos and even grey knights, though they probably need more work like most of GK codex.

And don't forget this helps Blightlords, Shrouds, and Scarab Occults too without being terribly over the top.

This has been covered so many times but if you change PF Catachan with PF, Admech with PF all get buffed

Are those units going to start facing down and killing terminators? are they going to replace terminators in the meta as high strength infantry melee units? Is that what you're saying? because if they were, then that might matter, but they're not, so it really doesn't matter. Terminators account for way more than half of the pfs that see the table, with -1ws or with no -1, and they don't need two special rules that cancel each other out, leaving the only use of one of those rules to Catachan IG officers, who fight with pfs in about one round of close combat per 40k player per year.

and aggressors already considered a good unit get buffed removing another of the distinctions between agressors and terminators.

aggressors are not a primary close combat unit now and they aren't one if they hit on 3+ either. The difference between the two units is that terminators are elite troops for special missions, and aggressors are support troopers who aren't any different in status than their other primaris colleagues. Terminators do not distinguish themselves from aggressors based on having a better set of powerfist attachments.

WS2+ BS2+

We also know that terminators and veterans do not have ws2+, and we know it from more than one perspective. One, we know that marines select recruits and veterans for determination, reliability, and heroism, which you can call grit, not for natural talent. Two, we know that there are marine units that are chosen for having really high ws or bs, and they are not line terminator or veteran units.

All marines recruit fro grit, not weapon skill. The Ultramarines are a regimented system, so they recruit people who can thrive and be creative within a regimented barracks system for five to fourteen year-olds. Space Wolves recruit young warriors who are mortally wounded from charging superior enemies, because they want marines who are ambitious. Blood Angels recruit people who can drag themselves across a radiation scorched desert to compete in a tournament and then see it through.

These things also apply to the first company. They have +1 a and +1 Ld, They select for grit and heroism. We can definitely assume that in a whole chapter, there are really good marksmen, there's a marksman's honor award, and really good melee fighters. These would make really good snipers in the companies or maybe even company champions, which we even have had rules for since at latest fifth edition, when he had ws5.

The first company has a specific mission profile, which isn't snipers or duelist champions, and it's not simply a special place for putting the best marines. Normally, a marine mission assumes you can use at least a demi-company, five squads of ten who can support each other. However, there are missions where circumstances mean you can only fit, say, five largeish marines in a space, or for some reason five squads wouldn't be able to effectively support each other. So you need a set of units that have enough resilience and reliability and heroism that five TDA marines or ten veterans will be enough to get it done. That means +1 A and +1 Ld, and since high BS and high grit aren't connected in a 1:1 ratio, the proportion of high BS marines might even be lower in the first company than in the rest of the chapter.

Then yes, there are high skilled units out there, so you can't compare directly to captains and lieutenants. The codex chapters and ultramarines have honor guard, the blood angels have sanguinary guard, the companies have company champions, and in the HH every legion has at least one special ws2+/bs2+ unit like the Justaerin. Those are your duelists, those are your ws2+ units, those are units that can beat up standard terminators, because standard terminators are required to have exceptional experience and wiles and ingenuity and resilience and lots of thing but skill is kind of less of a priority for those specific elite units called standard terminators, as opposed to elite praetorian guards or whatever who do indeed get ws2+.


And that's why terminators need a3, basic marines need a2, and the whole game needs a rule that you get -1 ap for shooting enemies who have fewer attacks than you, because increasing bs by +1 does not adequately power up any unit over hordes or other weaker units.

A la Carte weaponry for all Terminators, not just CSM.

Agreed - However sadly I bet may will say that the Snowflake Chapters have to be protected with their "unique units".

And don't forget this helps Blightlords, Shrouds, and Scarab Occults too without being terribly over the top.

See, 40k already has numerous elite terminators who should have better ws than basic terminators, as well as guilliman's ws/bs 2+ veteran formation from seventh edition, and the various ws2+ paladins in the grey knights. What's more, it's not even as powerful as getting -1 ap, you kill more marines with 4+ ap -1 than you do with 3+ ap-.

You definitely kill more of everything with ws3+ and three attacks than you do with ws3+ and two attacks.

What's more, when it comes to house rules it helps to give all the players something new to use, and something that doesn't require them to account for tweaks to one unit they might not even use themselves.

pelicaniforce wrote:

And don't forget this helps Blightlords, Shrouds, and Scarab Occults too without being terribly over the top.

See, 40k already has numerous elite terminators who should have better ws than basic terminators, as well as guilliman's ws/bs 2+ veteran formation from seventh edition, and the various ws2+ paladins in the grey knights. What's more, it's not even as powerful as getting -1 ap, you kill more marines with 4+ ap -1 than you do with 3+ ap-.

You definitely kill more of everything with ws3+ and three attacks than you do with ws3+ and two attacks.

What's more, when it comes to house rules it helps to give all the players something new to use, and something that doesn't require them to account for tweaks to one unit they might not even use themselves.

Three attacks and the S5 and all that is scaling badly though is more my point. Until we go on a D8/D10 system, one of the best ways we can really show that only the most skilled get the Terminator suits and that they're slightly more advanced than their other 1st Company counterparts (along with the high tech systems in those suits) is logically WS/BS2+.

Strapping on a Terminator suit shouldn't just grant an extra attack, after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also currently Paladins don't have the WS2+. Only their Sergeant does, which is silly. They also already have 3 attacks, and with your proposal would have 4. That's bad scaling.

veterans and terminators, as well as Paladins and other elite+ honor guard get three attacks. Basic marines get two attacks. Every army gets ap-1 when they have more attack’s than their opponents. Elite+ units can have better skills

Terminators aren’t more skilled, there are a bunch of reasons why. You can talk about it but rn veterans have more attacks/experience/wiles, and they’re not much more skilled.

I didn’t say anything about TDA giving attacks or paladins getting +1, that’s not a problem.