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Made in us
Been Around the Block




Some ideas!

1. Change bolters and combibolters from rapid fire 1 and 2 to assault 3 and 6. Marines are expensive and their guns should have at least a little bite. Pink horrors can be assault 3, fire warriors can have three shots per model, and both cost about half of a marine.

2. Ws and bs 2 for terminators. If you're in terminator armor, you're good at killing stuff.

3. Upon deployment from the teleportarium, roll d6. What you roll is the number of inches closer than 9 you may deploy. Maybe meltas are worth taking now? Maybe you can make a charge and not get blasted off the table?

Still probably not worth the 60 points per model a fully kitted terminator costs, but close.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




3rd wound.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Oh hey. Time for this thread again.

If overhauling the entire marine 'dex to be less numerous and more potent on a model-by-model basis is off the table, I'd say a 3rd wound feels about right. Terminators put out 4 strength 4 shots and a copule power fist attacks per turn. That isn't terrible offense. Making them 3 wounds lets their 2+ save matter a little more as you need to roll 3 1s against small arms fire and take two wounds against D2 weapons before you drop.
   
Made in es
Ultramarine Scout with Sniper Rifle




Barcelona, Spain

I've been debating this with my friend for a one month narrative campaign we're having in August. We both have marines as our primary armies and love termies. Our rule when proposing changes is fixing the "worst" of the problems with minimum changes. So, when looking at termies I see two: survivavility for points cost and damage capability. The second is imo the "worst" because armor in general (specially marines) has recieved a nerf with 8th edition's fp system. This means they lack damage output. We discussed many ways of fixing this, and tried a few. In the end, looking at points cost, we decided ws2+/bs2+ was the most efficient solution. Might change as we test it

"Eventually, everything falls to a bolter" 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine






This issue comes up quite a bit, personally I think they need both 3 wounds and a 1+ save to give them more resistance to AP, this fixes their durability.

In terms of damage output I think they're generally okay; the only thing I'd maybe change is to make a specific Terminator Storm Bolter that can be fired either as Rapid Fire 2, or as Pistol 2, enabling it to be fired in close combat for a few extra S4 attacks when outnumbered.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/30 15:26:03


   
Made in gb
Slippery Ultramarine Scout Biker





UK

Does anything else have a 1+ basic save?

[500] 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine






 Brother Castor wrote:
Does anything else have a 1+ basic save?

No, but then what else should? Heavier units usually have higher Toughness and/or wounds; I think 1+ for terminators makes sense given they're still normal sized (for marines) but wearing what is essentially tank armour, without being a tank.

Since natural 1's should always fail, having a 1+ save just means you can ignore a point of AP without it having to be made an ability.

   
Made in gb
Slippery Ultramarine Scout Biker





UK

It's a good suggestion, but would require a statline change (which won't happen).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/02 16:27:23


[500] 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Baton Rouge, LA

 Haravikk wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Does anything else have a 1+ basic save?

No, but then what else should? Heavier units usually have higher Toughness and/or wounds; I think 1+ for terminators makes sense given they're still normal sized (for marines) but wearing what is essentially tank armour, without being a tank.

Since natural 1's should always fail, having a 1+ save just means you can ignore a point of AP without it having to be made an ability.


Give them back 3+ on 2D6.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
DR:80S++G++M+B+I+Pwmhd03#+D+++A(WTF)/mWD230R+++T(S)DM+++ 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator




In My Lab

 Platuan4th wrote:
 Haravikk wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Does anything else have a 1+ basic save?

No, but then what else should? Heavier units usually have higher Toughness and/or wounds; I think 1+ for terminators makes sense given they're still normal sized (for marines) but wearing what is essentially tank armour, without being a tank.

Since natural 1's should always fail, having a 1+ save just means you can ignore a point of AP without it having to be made an ability.


Give them back 3+ on 2D6.


Hell no. Hell no.

If for no other reason than that'd be tedious as all get-out to roll. Can you imagine taking, say, 10 wounds and having to roll each 2d6 separately? Every single time?

My Plaguebearers (one squad, mind you) can easily whip out anywhere from 15 to 40+ wounds on Terminators, depending on how Epidemius is doing. Do you want to roll 40 sets of 2d6 every combat phase?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in il
Tzeentch Doomlord Pilot






3d wound is decent, but honestly they should probably cost a bit less.

Or get 3d wound, BS3 WS3 and cost a bit more.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think BS/WS2+ and reduce all wounds taken by 1 to a minimum of 1 is the way to do it.

They need to be more powerful damage wise, so the BS/WS does that. They don't need to be more durable to 1 damage guns, so 3W is too much, but they need to be more resilient against 2 damage guns.

They might also need a points change, but i'd be willing to see what these changes did first.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/30 23:25:20


 
   
Made in us
Grey Knight Psionic Stormraven Pilot




This isn't just a Codex Space Marines problem guys. Whatever it is, it needs to be something that can be applied to the TERMINATOR keyword. Otherwise you'd have to go back and errata all the codexes that have terminator armoured guys(i.e most of them). Too much hard work from GW's POV. If its a global rule, it needs to be simple. Nothing that alters the statline or results in tedious amounts of rolling. I see too many ideas that a too fantastical, which makes them too difficult to implement and will therefore never happen this edition.

I think "add one to all armour save rolls" is a good simple addition, same with "reduce all damage results by 1 to a minimum of 1". Combo either of those with price adjustments in chapter approved to fine tune different iterations of Terminator armour in different codexes.

Also, what about a variation of the "Grinding advance" rule that GW seems to dish out to battletank type units. Each model can fire one weapon twice when moving under half speed? Fits the theme of terminators being walking tanks. Could probably be applied to many DREADNOUGHT units also.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/01 00:04:39


 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine






 JNAProductions wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:

Give them back 3+ on 2D6.


Hell no. Hell no.

If for no other reason than that'd be tedious as all get-out to roll. Can you imagine taking, say, 10 wounds and having to roll each 2d6 separately? Every single time?

You mean you don't have 20+ pairs of differently coloured dice? What kind of weirdo are you?

Completely agree though; even using D12's or such doesn't really work for larger sized 40k games where it would become a nuisance to have to keep enough different dice types handy, fine for smaller games but not 40k. Besides, 3+ on 2D6 really just means you effectively halve AP with a very slightly better save, so it's kind of redundant when you could just… well, halve AP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 14:37:30


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 BoomWolf wrote:
3d wound is decent, but honestly they should probably cost a bit less.

Or get 3d wound, BS3 WS3 and cost a bit more.


3rd wound and a price break, because their offense is a joke.
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord






After a discussion with my group, we're going to start simple with Terminators (since we own tons of them). We're doing two very simple things.

1) Reducing the cost of each Terminator model by 8 points (-40 per squad of five)
2) Increasing wounds to three.

We're only applying these to Terminator squads, no HQ's, etc (as they seem tough enough). It's our beta test, but we're just trying to make them not so fething awful. At the moment they're proving to be a tremendous handicap for anyone who takes them, mainly due to cost.

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Elbows wrote:
After a discussion with my group, we're going to start simple with Terminators (since we own tons of them). We're doing two very simple things.

1) Reducing the cost of each Terminator model by 8 points (-40 per squad of five)
2) Increasing wounds to three.

We're only applying these to Terminator squads, no HQ's, etc (as they seem tough enough). It's our beta test, but we're just trying to make them not so fething awful. At the moment they're proving to be a tremendous handicap for anyone who takes them, mainly due to cost.


This seems pretty reasonable.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




An extra attack and an extra wound, may need a possible points increase but not much.
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Id like to see ws2+ bs2+ on terminators with possibly an extra attack. I dont think the durability is actually as much of an issue as the fact its so easy for them to just miss and do little to no damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 09:58:54


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight






Yendor

jcd386 wrote:
reduce all wounds taken by 1 to a minimum of 1 is the way to do it.


This would be a huge help for their Durability, and it doesn't improve their durability vs single wound attacks. It doubles their resistance to Plasma, and they require 3 Damage weapons to one shot, which still exist but aren't as common. There is also prior precedent as this is basically the Wave Serpent Rule.

Otherwise I think terminators just need a bit more flexibility and let players streamline their options more. I don't think adjusting weapon skill / ballistic skill is the way to do it, but rather let them all take specialist equipment if you want (to pay for it), and for loyalists start them with Power Weapons and let them upgrade their melee from there. You want to run a "classic" Storm Bolter + Power Fist, sure, knock yourself out. You want to run an entire squad with Power Swords and Assault Cannons. Have fun. TH+SS sure. Slap Cyclone Missile on everybody, why not? Let each man be as expensive or as cheap as you want. You want to spend the points for an entire squad with Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers and Storm Shields? Go for it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/02 12:38:26


Xom finds this thread hilarious!

My 5th Edition Eldar Tactica (not updated for 6th, historical purposes only) Walking the Path of the Eldar 
   
Made in ch
Angry Chaos Agitator




 akaean wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
reduce all wounds taken by 1 to a minimum of 1 is the way to do it.


This would be a huge help for their Durability, and it doesn't improve their durability vs single wound attacks. It doubles their resistance to Plasma, and they require 3 Damage weapons to one shot, which still exist but aren't as common. There is also prior precedent as this is basically the Wave Serpent Rule.

Otherwise I think terminators just need a bit more flexibility and let players streamline their options more. I don't think adjusting weapon skill / ballistic skill is the way to do it, but rather let them all take specialist equipment if you want (to pay for it), and for loyalists start them with Power Weapons and let them upgrade their melee from there. You want to run a "classic" Storm Bolter + Power Fist, sure, knock yourself out. You want to run an entire squad with Power Swords and Assault Cannons. Have fun. TH+SS sure. Slap Cyclone Missile on everybody, why not? Let each man be as expensive or as cheap as you want. You want to spend the points for an entire squad with Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers and Storm Shields? Go for it.


Terminator equipment is seperate right? Why not lowering the points there? often times this is were terminator pointcost gets bloated.
Also their profile does not really represent the fact that these are supposed to be (in most cases) THE VETERANS of the chapter/Legion/Warband and basically the second in commands right behind their Lords/ Chapter masters.
Also dmg output for the price is to low, that is the main reason in my opinion.
   
Made in gb
Painting Within the Lines




U.k

I like the 1+ idea. I’m also a fan of the 2d6 idea too. Maybe 3+ would be too good now that AP isn’t as high as it was. When terminators first came out they had the highest armour save in the game. Bring it back. Extra wound, 2+ hits and 1+ save. And new model that’s not shorter than a primaries marine.
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord





Dallas area, TX

Honestly, I feel like the best solution for ALL MARINES is to give the +1W. Tactical? 2Ws. Terminators? 3Ws. Bikes? 3Ws and so on.
Maybe Primaris Marines stay at 2Ws and get T5 instead?

After that, a few points drops here and there would be good. I'm also OK with the 1+ armour save idea as well

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 14:40:10


   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator




In My Lab

 Galef wrote:
Honestly, I feel like the best solution for ALL MARINES is to give the +1W. Tactical? 2Ws. Terminators? 3Ws. Bikes? 3Ws and so on.
Maybe Primaris Marines stay at 2Ws and get T5 instead?

After that, a few points drops here and there would be good.

-


But then what do Primaris in Gravis Armor get? T6? They're nearly as tough as a Dreadnought, and tougher than a Custodian!

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord





Dallas area, TX

 JNAProductions wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Honestly, I feel like the best solution for ALL MARINES is to give the +1W. Tactical? 2Ws. Terminators? 3Ws. Bikes? 3Ws and so on.
Maybe Primaris Marines stay at 2Ws and get T5 instead?

After that, a few points drops here and there would be good.

-


But then what do Primaris in Gravis Armor get? T6? They're nearly as tough as a Dreadnought, and tougher than a Custodian!

Well, there would definitely need some tweaks, which is why I ending with a "?"
I forget, is Gravis Armour just T5, or is it also 2+ armour? If it doesn't have 2+, we could give it 2+ instead of T6

Also, I would not necessarily give all Characters +1W, but some could.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 15:14:38


   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator




In My Lab

 Galef wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Honestly, I feel like the best solution for ALL MARINES is to give the +1W. Tactical? 2Ws. Terminators? 3Ws. Bikes? 3Ws and so on.
Maybe Primaris Marines stay at 2Ws and get T5 instead?

After that, a few points drops here and there would be good.

-


But then what do Primaris in Gravis Armor get? T6? They're nearly as tough as a Dreadnought, and tougher than a Custodian!

Well, there would definitely need some tweaks, which is why I ending with a "?"
I forget, is Gravis Armour just T5, or is it also 2+ armour? If it doesn't have 2+, we could give it 2+

Also, I would not necessarily give all Characters +1W, but some could.

-


Gravis is T5, 3+.

And honestly, I'd rather see, if we were gonna make Marines tougher, a complete rework of most units' Toughness and Strength values.

Make Marines T6, Guardsmen T4, Dreadnoughts T10, Land Raiders T12 or 14. We can have stats over 10 now-use that.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




A complete rework is looking more and more necessary.
   
Made in gb
Slippery Ultramarine Scout Biker





UK

As has already been said, it needs to be a rule that can be applied to the TERMINATOR keyword or a points reduction. Statline changes aren't going to make it into CA.

[500] 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Points reduction works. It always does if its big enough.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




The problems with termies are lack of offensive output and limited mobility, IMHO.

Regular termies, replace regular powerfist stats with +1 attack, +2 str, -2 ap, 1d, let them mount 2x storm bolters, let the heavy use grav/plasma (1mw on overheat)/melta,AC,dual HB, 2+WS/BS, invlun to a 4++, 3rd wound and allow them to teleport shunt for 1 cp (basic deepstrike but can do it from on the table, not a strat so multiple units can do it?)

Assault termies add 1-2 to movement and charge/advance rolls. Can charge after advancing. No negatives to hit rolls for melee weapons. +1 str, 3w, 4++, 3rd wound, teleport shunt and maybe a native -1 to hit vs shooting attacks outside of 12.

With all that at current cost I think they'd see the table (they may even need a couple more points). I don't want them cheaper as the race to the bottom isn't a war that marines should try to win (leave that to guard).
   
 
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