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w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Every civilian on Prospero is no more a follower of Magnus than every civillian on Fenris is a follower of Russ.

Everyone on Fenris IS a follower of Russ

That is not true. Villagers on Fenris talk about the "sky warriors" and how they go fight amongst the stars in the Allfather's name, but most have never even seen a Space Marine let alone the The Fang. They have their own village leaders and fight amongst themselves.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
But then Russ gets told exactly what magnus had been up to and he is well aware of the emperor's orders concerning what was to happen if someone were to do precisely that.

True, but again, it was not Russ place to jump the gun like that. The penalty for murder is the death penalty in some states... that doesn't mean the executioner can round up people accused or convicted of murder and start putting them to death.

Russ is the ruler of Fenris, the people on Fenris follow him, in fact he's basicly even in by the time of Prosperio likely seen as a god. we know byu M 41 he certainly is.

From HH B7 Inferno:

Through these men and women he adapted
the ancient superstitions and sagas ofFenris
to accept him and his Legion as something
of preternatural power and holy purpose. To
the people ofFenris, the Fang itselfbecame
equated to the hall of the gods and immortals, the Legionaries of the VI'h the warriors of
the skies, and there was no greater honour
than to be chosen to join their ranks and
sail the void of night as a champion in the
service of the 'A!lfather'-the Emperor
cast as the godlike father of humanity, and
Leman Russ, His favoured son and strong
right hand

So if Russ was eliminated Fenris would HAVE to be destroyed.

Just about every primarch with a few notable exceptions (Pertabo and Konrad Cruz are the only examples I can think of) pretty much completely dominated their worlds. and basicly shaped them into what they are. There is a reason the homeworld of every traitor legion was destroyed.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Still follow Russ though.

But if an executioner is given the order to round up and kill some people they can. Which is what happened.

Again, the only order we know for a fact Russ was given was to arrest Magnus.

We know Horus got him to kill Magnus and while we don't know the exact how it's not hard to see the order being given by him.

pm713 wrote:
We know Horus got him to kill Magnus and while we don't know the exact how it's not hard to see the order being given by him.

Because it could be any number of possibilities.

A). Horus convincing Russ that taking Magnus back to Terra alive is too dangerous and that he would be better off dead.

B). Horus convincing Russ that Magnus was about to break the edict again in a worse way and that killing him was the only way to stop him.

C.) Horus telling Russ the depths of which Magnus broke the edict (the truth) and Russ was so angry he said "feth it I'm going to kill him".

... or any number of scenarios you care to think of. Even if Horus said to Russ "The emperor orders you to do this", Valdor was telling Russ (at least initially) that in no uncertain terms this is not what the Emperor wanted. Russ ignored him.

BrianDavion wrote:
*snip*
So if Russ was eliminated Fenris would HAVE to be destroyed.

Just about every primarch with a few notable exceptions (Pertabo and Konrad Cruz are the only examples I can think of) pretty much completely dominated their worlds. and basicly shaped them into what they are. There is a reason the homeworld of every traitor legion was destroyed.

Fair enough, point conceded.

I always thought the Traitor homeworlds were destroyed to ensure every trace of heresy was removed, and to spite the traitors, rather than a general "this is standard procedure" kind of thing.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
We know Horus got him to kill Magnus and while we don't know the exact how it's not hard to see the order being given by him.

Because it could be any number of possibilities.

A). Horus convincing Russ that taking Magnus back to Terra alive is too dangerous and that he would be better off dead.

B). Horus convincing Russ that Magnus was about to break the edict again in a worse way and that killing him was the only way to stop him.

C.) Horus telling Russ the depths of which Magnus broke the edict (the truth) and Russ was so angry he said "feth it I'm going to kill him".

... or any number of scenarios you care to think of. Even if Horus said to Russ "The emperor orders you to do this", Valdor was telling Russ (at least initially) that in no uncertain terms this is not what the Emperor wanted. Russ ignored him.

It doesn't matter what Valdor says though. Horus was the Warmaster and ordered Magnus gone for whatever reason. Horus had the authority to do that.

pm713 wrote:
It doesn't matter what Valdor says though. Horus was the Warmaster and ordered Magnus gone for whatever reason. Horus had the authority to do that.

Horus derived his authority from the Emperor. If the Emperor's official ambassador and chief bodyguard is saying that this is not what the Emperor wanted, and your new orders are in conflict with the original ones that were given to you directly by the Emperor... it would be wise to at least consider things.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
It doesn't matter what Valdor says though. Horus was the Warmaster and ordered Magnus gone for whatever reason. Horus had the authority to do that.

Horus derived his authority from the Emperor. If the Emperor's official ambassador and chief bodyguard is saying that this is not what the Emperor wanted, and your new orders are in conflict with the original ones that were given to you directly by the Emperor... it would be wise to at least consider things.

Bodyguards are there to stop people getting stabbed not dictate policy or military action. Valdor has 0 official bearing. Horus was the commander of the entire military and had the Emperor's authority to do whatever he wanted with military actions. If Horus is saying that things changed and Magnus needs to die and Valdor disagrees then you can follow orders and kill him or go rogue and ignore them with Valdor.

Imagine if Magnus and the XVth were wiped out but Prospero and its Warp-tainted culture of sorcerers was not. Prospero would easily become the anchor of a multi-system rebellion.

 Manchu wrote:
Imagine if Magnus and the XVth were wiped out but Prospero and its Warp-tainted culture of sorcerers was not. Prospero would easily become the anchor of a multi-system rebellion.

Exactly, most Primarchs are emblemantic of the culture of their homeworld, they shape it and it shapes them, if a Primarch goes bad, the entire planet likely can be counted on to go bad

 Manchu wrote:
As explained above, you either acknowledge that Horus "updated" Russ's orders or you imply Russ colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. The latter is absurd.

C’mon Manchu, that’s not what he’s saying at all. He’s saying Russ had orders to bring Magnus back, and they were changed by Horus; Russ, having been an executioner twice, had no objections to new orders to butcher his brother who he already heavily disliked. It’s not collusion, it’s preference for the new orders and rolling with them. And Horus expected that would happen. You know the difference between collusion and Horus playing Russ like a guitar.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
As explained above, you either acknowledge that Horus "updated" Russ's orders or you imply Russ colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. The latter is absurd.

C’mon Manchu, that’s not what he’s saying at all. He’s saying Russ had orders to bring Magnus back, and they were changed by Horus; Russ, having been an executioner twice, had no objections to new orders to butcher his brother who he already heavily disliked. It’s not collusion, it’s preference for the new orders and rolling with them. And Horus expected that would happen. You know the difference between collusion and Horus playing Russ like a guitar.

This is partially a chicken vs egg argument though. We know that Russ's legion was the only one to have explicitly fought at least one other legion prior to the heresy and possibly as many as three, with strong circumstantial evidence that his Legion purged one. The Emperor wanted Magnus alive but his choice of sending Russ underscores that he knew if things went side ways, he picked the general that would pull the trigger with no hesitation. Horus likely didn't need to do much to get Russ to go from try to take him alive to purge them all, but either way Russ was doing his appointed job. He as the second primarch found and the one who the Emperor trusted to be the fixer. With that mindset, why would he question Horus?

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
We know Horus got him to kill Magnus and while we don't know the exact how it's not hard to see the order being given by him.

Because it could be any number of possibilities.

A). Horus convincing Russ that taking Magnus back to Terra alive is too dangerous and that he would be better off dead.

B). Horus convincing Russ that Magnus was about to break the edict again in a worse way and that killing him was the only way to stop him.

C.) Horus telling Russ the depths of which Magnus broke the edict (the truth) and Russ was so angry he said "feth it I'm going to kill him".

... or any number of scenarios you care to think of. Even if Horus said to Russ "The emperor orders you to do this", Valdor was telling Russ (at least initially) that in no uncertain terms this is not what the Emperor wanted. Russ ignored him.

BrianDavion wrote:
*snip*
So if Russ was eliminated Fenris would HAVE to be destroyed.

Just about every primarch with a few notable exceptions (Pertabo and Konrad Cruz are the only examples I can think of) pretty much completely dominated their worlds. and basicly shaped them into what they are. There is a reason the homeworld of every traitor legion was destroyed.

Fair enough, point conceded.

I always thought the Traitor homeworlds were destroyed to ensure every trace of heresy was removed, and to spite the traitors, rather than a general "this is standard procedure" kind of thing.

We dont need to know what exactly Horus said because we know what he NEEDED to say was "The Emperor told me to tell you that he changed his mind and to kill Magnus instead of bringing him to Terra." That's it. Game over. No ifs, no buts, no questions asked. Nothing else needs said.

On the subject of differences in warp use and control we actually see some pretty good examples in Ashes of Prospero.
Njal Stormcaller allows a Thousand Son temporary control of his body and notes the difference, Njal - the most gifted Psyker the Space Wolves have ever had delicately carves a piece off the stream. The Thousand Sons Libby takes the whole stream and flexes it.
Even if the 1k Sons psyker is the second best Psyker after Magnus that is a massive leap in warp knowledge so much so that they are hardly comparable.
Njal isn’t just the best of backward savages, he is even acknowledged by proper Librarius Psyker for his knowledge and skills in the Librarius disciplines.
Magnus and his boys were beyond even what current Librarius Psykers can grasp.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
On the subject of differences in warp use and control we actually see some pretty good examples in Ashes of Prospero.
Njal Stormcaller allows a Thousand Son temporary control of his body and notes the difference, Njal - the most gifted Psyker the Space Wolves have ever had delicately carves a piece off the stream. The Thousand Sons Libby takes the whole stream and flexes it.
Even if the 1k Sons psyker is the second best Psyker after Magnus that is a massive leap in warp knowledge so much so that they are hardly comparable.
Njal isn’t just the best of backward savages, he is even acknowledged by proper Librarius Psyker for his knowledge and skills in the Librarius disciplines.
Magnus and his boys were beyond even what current Librarius Psykers can grasp.

agreed. even if we accept that knowledge since the heresy has been lost and that Njal isn't on par with any of the big name heresy era psykers, what we see is an entirely differant APPROUCH to using psykic powers. a differant..... school if you will

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
On the subject of differences in warp use and control we actually see some pretty good examples in Ashes of Prospero.
Njal Stormcaller allows a Thousand Son temporary control of his body and notes the difference, Njal - the most gifted Psyker the Space Wolves have ever had delicately carves a piece off the stream. The Thousand Sons Libby takes the whole stream and flexes it.
Even if the 1k Sons psyker is the second best Psyker after Magnus that is a massive leap in warp knowledge so much so that they are hardly comparable.
Njal isn’t just the best of backward savages, he is even acknowledged by proper Librarius Psyker for his knowledge and skills in the Librarius disciplines.
Magnus and his boys were beyond even what current Librarius Psykers can grasp.

agreed. even if we accept that knowledge since the heresy has been lost and that Njal isn't on par with any of the big name heresy era psykers, what we see is an entirely differant APPROUCH to using psykic powers. a differant..... school if you will

I think it's more they have different approaches than being a matter of power. The Thousand Sons were all about rediscovering knowledge and study whereas by 40k everyone in the librarius is more smash the enemy to pieces.

So at delicate things the Thousand Sons are better but if you wanted to kill a whole demon horde you want Njal.

Actually, you’d want that Thousand Sons Psyker for both.