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I strongly agree with you, Deadshot. I cannot tell you how frequently I have rolled my eyes reading comments to the effect that the Emperor was/is stupid, hypocritical, evil, unable to undertsand basic social interaction, etc, etc. And even if we can say that the Imperium at large is more than a little sinister, the Space Wolves stand out as compassionate and heroic. Like a pizza cutter, speculation that Leman Russ and the Space Wolves somehow betrayed the Emperor at Prospero is all edge and no point.

Furthermore, the story of Propsero - indeed the story of Magnus more generally - is not morally complex. Magnus never even considered obeying the Edict of Nikaea. There was no struggle in his conscience between doing what he should and doing what he wanted. He disregarded the Edict because he was confident that he knew better than everyone else, including the Emperor. All the talk about the betterment of humanity and the brave pursuit of knowledge is so much rationalization of pride. His warning about Horus was not motivated by loyalty to the Imperium, but his all-consuming lust to prove himself right and the Emperor wrong. When it blew up in his face, he still didn't have the moral courage to accept the consequences, even as he claimed that was exactly what he was doing. Instead, he buried his head in the sand and left his supposedly-beloved legion twisting in the wind until the Space Wolves had finally wreaked enough carnage that the Cyclops felt justified in actually fighting. And then he lost and, rather than face death with dignity, he made the final deal with Tzeentch to save himself, all the while rationalizing it as a last-ditch effort to save his Legion, which were only in need of saving because of his own faults. And then he spent how many thousands of years locked away on the Sorcerer's Planet, bemoaning his fate.

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Almost like they have deep complicated feelings on the matter like real people often do.

I don't understand how someone can be ashamed of something, and yet simultaneously hold the view that they did nothing wrong.

You can feel bad about something even if you didn't think what you did was wrong. Russ mostly came to regret that he was wasting time fighting the thousand sons while Horus and company murdered three legions on Isstavan. He did what he was ordered to do and Magnus was ultimately an arrogant heretic who thought he was the smartest guy in the room when he had basically been played since the beginning

 Deadshot wrote:
...The further into the 21st century we get, the more edgy people try to be, picking holes in hero characters and trying to subvert characters into a more anti-hero or anti-villain because they just dont like their favourite character being a bad guy or loser. Primarchs and the Emperor especially because they are pinnacle humanity, and readers cant accept that it really is as simple as Good vs Bad. The Emperor is constantly labelled a benevolent tyrant as an insult rather than a fact, and how withdraw and aloof he wad, rather than recognise the necessity of his actions as part of a greater plan. Likewise, people fail to understand that Magnus single-handedly doomed humanity to an eternity of being prayed on by Daemons like Odyssian sea beasts, while also almost costing the Loyalists the Heresy, and all of it through his own ambitions.

Or it is just that people are accepting the idea that 100% good heroes and 100% bad villians makes for a bad and boring story. People IRL are not 100% good or bad. Even the most "moral" individuals like Nelson Mandela and Mother Teresa have done questionable things in their life, and even individuals that we consider the worst of the worst like Adolf Hitler aren't totally evil and depraved in every possible way. Part of what gives nuance and depth to any setting is looking at ways in which the good guys might not always be in the right, and the bad guys being misguided but ultimately having a point or an understandable reason for doing the things that they do.

 Manchu wrote:
... the Space Wolves stand out as compassionate and heroic. Like a pizza cutter, speculation that Leman Russ and the Space Wolves somehow betrayed the Emperor at Prospero is all edge and no point.

That is not how this works. You don't get to be the "execution legion" whose reputation for brutality was second only to the World Eaters and be involved in sketchy situations involving unsanctioned exterminatuses and "dissapearing legions/Primarchs", whilst simultaneously claiming to be morally superior to every other legion/group in the setting. The Space Wolves of 40K are a different beast entirely from the Space Wolves of 30K... Largely due to the absence of Russ and the leadership of Logan Grimnar.

 Manchu wrote:
Furthermore, the story of Propsero - indeed the story of Magnus more generally - is not morally complex. Magnus never even considered obeying the Edict of Nikaea...

This isn't about what Magnus did before Prospero, this is about Prospero and what happened between the Wolves, 1K sons, and the people of Prospero. You can be a total monster and still be wronged by others. Likewise, you can be a good person and have done a terrible thing that you regret immensely.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

A Thousand Sons, p535.
He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes, but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction.

It was my understanding that Valdor was initially against Russ executing Magnus, but when Russ "committed" and started getting cold feet, Valdor pushed him to finish what he started and not back out.

Proof:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
You can feel bad about something even if you didn't think what you did was wrong. Russ mostly came to regret that he was wasting time fighting the thousand sons while Horus and company murdered three legions on Isstavan. He did what he was ordered to do and Magnus was ultimately an arrogant heretic who thought he was the smartest guy in the room when he had basically been played since the beginning

That wasn't the argument being made.

BrianDavion was somehow arguing that the Space Wolves "screw orders we do what we feel is right" streak came from guilt over what happened to the 1K sons at Prospero. I was simply pointing out that it is unlikely that they feel guilt over an incident in which they also believe that they did nothing wrong. The Space Wolves had always had those tendencies, they have just been exacerbated over time with the absence of Russ.

So... TLDR W1zzard, Space Wolves bad, the Heresy didn't have any impact on the Legion at all, and they're an entirely two dimensional group and you're arguing this must be the case because "anything else makes for a boring story"?

riiiight

look, Russ did wrong, he KNOWS it, but he won't ADMIT it, (how many people refuse to publicly admit a mistake to save face? it's common)
So he builds it up under justifications etc, well ensuring that it won't ever happen again, Wolfking and Wolfsbane makes this VERY VERY clear IMHO that Russ puts on a brave front well beating himself up over it, he claims he has no doubts because he has STRONG doubts.

BrianDavion wrote:
So... TLDR W1zzard, Space Wolves bad, the Heresy didn't have any impact on the Legion at all, and they're an entirely two dimensional group and you're arguing this must be the case because "anything else makes for a boring story"?

That is not what I am saying, nor have I ever said the Space Wolves were evil. My claims were purely that what happened on Prospero was not as simple as the Wolves wiping out some heretics. That there was ambiguity and the possibility that the Wolves overstepped their mandate to satisfy a vendetta. Even if we want to be as generous as possible and say that Russ was completely and totally tricked by Horus and didn't let his feelings for Magnus cloud his judgement in any way (yeah right), we still have the fact that his actions still could have earned him a spot on the traitors' list regardless of his intent, as has happened to multiple Imperials in the lore when they follow traitorous orders in good faith. This obviously didn't happen, as the Emperor basically pardoned Russ, but it COULD have happened.

BrianDavion wrote:
look, Russ did wrong, he KNOWS it, but he won't ADMIT it, (how many people refuse to publicly admit a mistake to save face? it's common) So he builds it up under justifications etc, well ensuring that it won't ever happen again, Wolfking and Wolfsbane makes this VERY VERY clear IMHO that Russ puts on a brave front well beating himself up over it, he claims he has no doubts because he has STRONG doubts.

Now if you had just said this from the beginning I might have agreed with you and left it at that. But this is not what others like Dev and Manchu have been arguing.

A pardon is only necessary to set aside a wrong. Without speculating, can you answer the question: What did Russ do wrong?

 Manchu wrote:
A pardon is only necessary to set aside a wrong. Without speculating, can you answer the question: What did Russ do wrong?

Either:

A. Colluding with Horus to eliminate the Thousand Sons (very unlikely, but technically possible) to fulfill a personal vendetta.

B. Being manipulated by Horus and allowing his prejudices to spur him towards actions that aided chaos, even disregarding the admonishment of Valdor that what Russ was doing was not what the Emperor wanted.

AND on top of either of those

C. Being needlessly brutal in his persecution of either of the above, killing an entire planet full of loyal Imperial citizens for seemingly no reason. As others have pointed out, that may have been their ultimate fate later on down the line, but that is irrelevant to what happened in the moment.

The FW Horus Herasy book that covered this also clarified that it took a while for Russ to gather the forces needed to head out and arrest Magnus. The journey itself was also not short. Some time during that, Horus spoke with him and changed his orders. Russ was following the chain of command the entire way, and if he believed that the order was wipe out a Legion, then you don't pull punches. People are acting like Russ got his orders from the Emperor and then Horus pulled him aside in the next room. Instead it was more likely that months later Horus changed it up

The Thousand Sons were an especially dangerous legion due to how many pyskers they had. If Russ was ordered to kill them, then no kid gloves kill as many as you can in the opening shot. The Wolves still took causalities even with the huge advantage they had. All of this is on Magnus. He could have,

1. Not disobeyed a direct order and not continued to consort with demons

2. Not wrecked the most important project in the history of humanity

3. Having been an arrogant ass, surrendered peacefully and do his best to fix things and maybe save his kids and planet

4. Not decide at the last minute to double down on heresy and become a servant of Chaos.

(A) is disqualified speculation.

(C) is incoherent considering Russ's purported orders.

That leaves us with (B), which is why I said from the beginning of this exchange: w1zard's only real issue is, why didn't the Emperor criticize Russ for being tricked by Horus? The answer is obvious.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The Thousand Sons were an especially dangerous legion due to how many pyskers they had. If Russ was ordered to kill them, then no kid gloves kill as many as you can in the opening shot. The Wolves still took causalities even with the huge advantage they had...

And Russ needed to wipe out all life on Prospero, including purely civilian targets to accomplish this?

HoundsofDemos wrote:
1. Not disobeyed a direct order and not continued to consort with demons

2. Not wrecked the most important project in the history of humanity

3. Having been an arrogant ass, surrendered peacefully and do his best to fix things and maybe save his kids and planet

4. Not decide at the last minute to double down on heresy and become a servant of Chaos.

Again, we aren't talking about Magnus' actions. Magnus did a lot to put himself in that position, but we are talking about Russ' actions on Prospero, not debating whether Magnus deserved it. Murdering a man on death row who has committed horrible crimes is still murder.

 Manchu wrote:
(A) is disqualified speculation.

But still a possibility as we do not know what Horus said to Russ. I agree that it is unlikely, but it was left ambiguous on purpose.

 Manchu wrote:
(C) is incoherent considering Russ's purported orders.

Again, see my comment on why needing to wipe out all life on the planet, civilian or otherwise was completely unnecessary... even if his orders were to kill Magnus and purge the 1K sons.

 Manchu wrote:
That leaves us with (B), which is why I said from the beginning of this exchange: w1zard's only real issue is, why didn't the Emperor criticize Russ for being tricked by Horus? The answer is obvious.

The answer is not obvious when Valdor told Russ repeatedly that the Emperor did not want this, and only went along with it in the end because Russ put his foot down. The answer is also not obvious because Russ blew an entire planet of innocent Imperial citizens out of the sky because they happened to be in his way... or are you arguing that every man, woman, and child on Prospero was a hostile combatant? This seems completely at odds with your statements about the Space Wolves being the "most moral and heroic" out of all of the legions.

You can speculate that Russ betrayed the Emperor. But there is no foundation for that theory whatsoever. Rather, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. For example, your very question is why Russ didn't get censured by the Emperor afterward. Of course, it would make sense that Russ would not be censured if he acted in good faith loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium. The only way we ever get to this alleged "unlikely possibility" is if you willfully disregard everything that clearly weighs against you and frame the question as an implicit accusation. This is what's called a conspiracy theory.

Wiping a Primarch and his Legion from history is a grave matter compared to which the exterminatus sanction is a minor issue. The destruction of Propsero, and all of its Warp-tainted culture, is pretty reasonably a facet of utterly destroying the XVth Legion.

It is obvious why the Emperor could not censure Russ for being tricked by Horus: everyone, every single subject of the Emperor and even the Emperor himself, was deceived by Horus at some point. Horus's deception is the raison d'être of the series of stories itself, hence its very name: The Horus Heresy. Furthermore, let's not forget that Magnus's warning had the reverse of the intended effect: the Emperor and Russ not only took the warning as proof that Magnus had turned traitor but it only deepened their trust in Horus.

w1zard wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

A Thousand Sons, p535.
He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes, but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction.

It was my understanding that Valdor was initially against Russ executing Magnus, but when Russ "committed" and started getting cold feet, Valdor pushed him to finish what he started and not back out.

Proof:

Spoiler:

The early stages of the Prospero campaign were to open a rift between the two champions of the Imperium, ironically due to the iron-clad loyalty of both commanders. For where Russ had concluded that to best serve the Imperium Magnus must die, Valdor would not deviate from the Emperor’s orders to take the Crimson King alive. While Valdor would eventually defer to Russ as the Emperor’s chosen commander of the Censure fleet, relations between the two commanders would remain strained during the fighting on the Thousand Sons’ home world of Prospero.

Tellingly, those of the Remembrancer Order who had accompanied Valdor were dismissed and returned to Terra under Russ' orders long before the fleet departed on the final leg of its journey.

Hmm, what's this from?

w1zard wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
(A) is disqualified speculation.

But still a possibility as we do not know what Horus said to Russ. I agree that it is unlikely, but it was left ambiguous on purpose.

We don't know what was exactly said no, but from Horus own lips we know that he said enough to convince Russ that taking Magnus back to Terra was a waste of time.

Reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/6aizms/russ_disobeyed_the_emperor_proof_quotes/

 Manchu wrote:
Reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/6aizms/russ_disobeyed_the_emperor_proof_quotes/

Thanks, Horus Heresy: Inferno P25

But note that the redditor in question quotes the source for what he wants it to say rather than what it says. None of the cited passages actually support the conclusion that Russ betrayed the Emperor, as claimed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
We don't know what was exactly said no, but from Horus own lips we know that he said enough to convince Russ that taking Magnus back to Terra was a waste of time.

Sure, I don't doubt that Horus convinced Russ that Magnus should die. I don't see Horus gloating, however, that he convinced Russ to disobey or otherwise betray the Emperor.

w1zard wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The Thousand Sons were an especially dangerous legion due to how many pyskers they had. If Russ was ordered to kill them, then no kid gloves kill as many as you can in the opening shot. The Wolves still took causalities even with the huge advantage they had...

And Russ needed to wipe out all life on Prospero, including purely civilian targets to accomplish this?

Yes, in keeping with the Edict of Nikaea "I will visit destruction upon them and all their followers so that they will rue the day they turned from my light."

HoundsofDemos wrote:
1. Not disobeyed a direct order and not continued to consort with demons

2. Not wrecked the most important project in the history of humanity

3. Having been an arrogant ass, surrendered peacefully and do his best to fix things and maybe save his kids and planet

4. Not decide at the last minute to double down on heresy and become a servant of Chaos.

Again, we aren't talking about Magnus' actions. Magnus did a lot to put himself in that position, but we are talking about Russ' actions on Prospero, not debating whether Magnus deserved it. Murdering a man on death row who has committed horrible crimes is still murder.

But not for the Executioner.

 Manchu wrote:
(A) is disqualified speculation.

But still a possibility as we do not know what Horus said to Russ. I agree that it is unlikely, but it was left ambiguous on purpose.

Irrelevant what he said. Chain of command says Horus is in charge and has the authority.

 Manchu wrote:
(C) is incoherent considering Russ's purported orders.

Again, see my comment on why needing to wipe out all life on the planet, civilian or otherwise was completely unnecessary... even if his orders were to kill Magnus and purge the 1K sons.

It was not to kill Magnus and the XV. Again, and I quote ""I will visit destruction upon them and all their followers so that they will rue the day they turned from my light." The entire population of Prospero were followers of Magnus, with many of the higher echelons being turned into Pseudo-Marines following the Emperor's arrival and those who werent going on to lead the infrastructure of the world. The thing about Primarchs is that they are essentially monarchs of their homeworld (or region in Guilliman's case). They are ruler, leader, head of state. Everyone is under their rule on that world.

 Manchu wrote:
That leaves us with (B), which is why I said from the beginning of this exchange: w1zard's only real issue is, why didn't the Emperor criticize Russ for being tricked by Horus? The answer is obvious.

The answer is not obvious when Valdor told Russ repeatedly that the Emperor did not want this, and only went along with it in the end because Russ put his foot down. The answer is also not obvious because Russ blew an entire planet of innocent Imperial citizens out of the sky because they happened to be in his way... or are you arguing that every man, woman, and child on Prospero was a hostile combatant? This seems completely at odds with your statements about the Space Wolves being the "most moral and heroic" out of all of the legions.

There are no innocents who consort with traitors. Every man, woman and child on Prospero WAS a hostile combatant, because each was potentially a dangerous psyker and each was marked for death under the Edict. The Wolves were however moral and heroic. Moral is a subjective term. You apply moral to mean "don't kill people and follow 21st Century morals." Morals in 40k means "kill the fething witch and burn the body twice to make double sure he's really fething dead." The Wolves protect the citizens of the Imperium as best they can and would never think of sitting back and letting someone else fight their battles. They dive in, head first no questions asked. But the Allfather decreed the death of Prospero and the Wolves follow the Allfather

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
We don't know what was exactly said no, but from Horus own lips we know that he said enough to convince Russ that taking Magnus back to Terra was a waste of time.

Sure, I don't doubt that Horus convinced Russ that Magnus should die. I don't see Horus gloating, however, that he convinced Russ to disobey or otherwise betray the Emperor.

Sorry Manchu, not following you here. Are you referring to the quote from False Gods? You'll have to blame the author for that

What I mean is, Horus was bragging in that scene. But he as not able to flat-out brag that Russ would act in disobedience to the Emperor. All I get from that scene is confirmation that Horus intervened such that Russ understood his orders were no longer "bring Magnus back to die on Terra" but were now "destroy Magnus, the XVth Legion, and Prospero." Even so, Magnus was not so angry as Horus brags; he still wanted to give Magnus a chance to surrender.

The whole thing was a major snafu: burning of prospero was never intended.

Yet... the planet of the warp sorcerers deserved to burn! Russ! Magnus is a nerd! Russ!

 Deadshot wrote:
Yes, in keeping with the Edict of Nikaea "I will visit destruction upon them and all their followers so that they will rue the day they turned from my light."

Every civilian on Prospero is no more a follower of Magnus than every civillian on Fenris is a follower of Russ.

 Deadshot wrote:

Murdering a man on death row who has committed horrible crimes is still murder.

But not for the Executioner.

It is if the executioner decides someone should get executed ahead of schedule, or executed in a non-condoned way.

 Deadshot wrote:
Irrelevant what he said. Chain of command says Horus is in charge and has the authority.

It is completely relevant if Horus didn't order Russ and instead convinced him to disobey the Emperor.

 Deadshot wrote:
There are no innocents who consort with traitors. Every man, woman and child on Prospero WAS a hostile combatant, because each was potentially a dangerous psyker and each was marked for death under the Edict.

Every person on Prospero was "consorting" with Magnus? Every man woman and child was a hostile combatant on Prospero? I am having trouble taking you seriously with these arguments because they are laughable.

The edict at Nikaea didn't proscribe death for all psykers, let alone non-psykers who happen to exist on a planet that happens to have a large percentage of psykers.

 Deadshot wrote:
But the Allfather decreed the death of Prospero and the Wolves follow the Allfather

The Emperor did not decree the death of Prospero.

Considering that the few remaining home worlds of the traitor legions were purged either during or after the heresy, yes it sucks that a lot of otherwise innocent people got killed but that seems to be the standard when a legion is being purged. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons were to be purged then the home world was gonna get burned as well.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Considering that the few remaining home worlds of the traitor legions were purged either during or after the heresy, yes it sucks that a lot of otherwise innocent people got killed but that seems to be the standard when a legion is being purged. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons were to be purged then the home world was gonna get burned as well.

But they weren't supposed to be purged, at least not yet... that has been my point. All that was supposed to happen is Magnus being arrested.

w1zard wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Considering that the few remaining home worlds of the traitor legions were purged either during or after the heresy, yes it sucks that a lot of otherwise innocent people got killed but that seems to be the standard when a legion is being purged. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons were to be purged then the home world was gonna get burned as well.

But they weren't supposed to be purged, at least not yet... that has been my point. All that was supposed to happen is Magnus being arrested.

Then months later, on the way to take him alive, Horus and Russ had words and again ( something that every one crapping on Russ) seem to ignore is that way out of range of Terra, Horus spoke to Russ and gave him a different mission. Russ has fought another legion before and knows that if that order came down don't take chances. He tried to teach Angron a lesson and that cost him more of his than Angron's. He might have had to purge a full legion or killed a brother before. He was never going to take a chance if it came to killing Magnus

Every civilian on Prospero is no more a follower of Magnus than every civillian on Fenris is a follower of Russ.

Everyone on Fenris IS a follower of Russ

w1zard wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Considering that the few remaining home worlds of the traitor legions were purged either during or after the heresy, yes it sucks that a lot of otherwise innocent people got killed but that seems to be the standard when a legion is being purged. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons were to be purged then the home world was gonna get burned as well.

But they weren't supposed to be purged, at least not yet... that has been my point. All that was supposed to happen is Magnus being arrested.

But then Russ gets told exactly what magnus had been up to and he is well aware of the emperor's orders concerning what was to happen if someone were to do precisely that.

The most you can say about the communication between Horus and Russ, if you insist on speculating (without supporting evidence) that Horus did NOT outright tell Russ that the Emperor changed his orders, is that Horus could have told Russ that Magnus was on the verge of committing another violation of the Edict that would be even more disastrous than what Magnus had already done - basically putting Russ into a position where if he did not outright destroy Magnus, the Emperor would be assassinated/Terra would be overwhelmed by daemons/etc.

w1zard wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Yes, in keeping with the Edict of Nikaea "I will visit destruction upon them and all their followers so that they will rue the day they turned from my light."

Every civilian on Prospero is no more a follower of Magnus than every civillian on Fenris is a follower of Russ.

Yes, because Russ is the Wolf King of Fenris. Magnus was the Crimson King or Sorcerer-King. King implies Kingdom. That kingdom was Prospero.

 Deadshot wrote:

Murdering a man on death row who has committed horrible crimes is still murder.

But not for the Executioner.

It is if the executioner decides someone should get executed ahead of schedule, or executed in a non-condoned way.

The executioner didn't, his superior did. End of discussion. There isn't an argument to make that Russ decided all on his own that this was how things were going to go. Unless you are implying that Russ would have sacked the planet regardless of Horus' intervention? Which would make you more mad than Angron.

 Deadshot wrote:
Irrelevant what he said. Chain of command says Horus is in charge and has the authority.

It is completely relevant if Horus didn't order Russ and instead convinced him to disobey the Emperor.

Regardless of whether Horus made a suggestion or ordered, Russ was not disobeying. The consequences for consorting with the Warp were already laid out by the Emperor in public. It'd be like POTUS declaring martial law, saying any brown-skinned person seen after dark will be shot on sight, then throwing a soldier in jail for following that command.

Horus didn't need to convince Russ to disobey the Emperor, and couldn't, Russ is surpremely loyal. Let's not forget that Russ was the 2nd primarch found after Horus. He had the most amount of time with the Emperor besides Horus. He was humbled by and the Emperor earned his respect. He swore fealty to the Emperor, and if Russ' Fenrisian culture is as closely linked to viking culture as it appears, that's a big deal. TDLR: Horus had no chance of convincing Russ to disobey.

He did however, manage to convince Russ that the Emperor had changed the order. Which is valid. There was nothing to suggest that Russ had any reason to doubt or disbelieve Horus, and to ignore Horus WOULD be in direct violation of a direct order directly from the Emperor himself. We've been over this many times. Russ was completely right to follow the new orders.

 Deadshot wrote:
There are no innocents who consort with traitors. Every man, woman and child on Prospero WAS a hostile combatant, because each was potentially a dangerous psyker and each was marked for death under the Edict.

Every person on Prospero was "consorting" with Magnus? Every man woman and child was a hostile combatant on Prospero? I am having trouble taking you seriously with these arguments because they are laughable.

The edict at Nikaea didn't proscribe death for all psykers, let alone non-psykers who happen to exist on a planet that happens to have a large percentage of psykers.

Yes because A) They were followers of Magnus, their planetary governor, and the Emperor decreed destruction for, and again, I quote "their followers." That includes the inhabitants of Prospero. That was the deterant from the Emperor. "I'll destroy not only you, but also all your sons, your friends and every other person on your planet. Don't test my patience."

I'm having trouble taking you seriously as you continually run in circles with the same arguments which have been shot down again and again. You keep repeating the same allegations against Russ, that he is a traitor, based on arguments that don't hold water.

 Deadshot wrote:
But the Allfather decreed the death of Prospero and the Wolves follow the Allfather

The Emperor did not decree the death of Prospero.

As far as Russ knew, he did, and as said, he had absolutely every reason to sack Prospero. There are literally 5 reasons why he should and 1 shaky reason that he shouldnt, and that 1 reason relies on having a 3rd-person omniscient hindsight of the events of the moment to know that Horus was evil. Just because you watch the Prequel movie, be it Star Wars, the Hobbit, Fantastic Beasts or Prometheus, doesn't mean you should be screaming stuff about Darth Vader, the One Ring, Voldemort or the Xenomorph to the characters. The Horus Heresy is a prequel. You know the outcome because your starting point is in the future. Russ didn't have the information you have, he had an order from a superior officer who was besties with the King, who says the King said this. Not only this, but everyone KNOWS that the officer is the most trustworthy stand up guy in the world.

Better yet - your older brother, clearly your dad's favourite, says that dad said to take out the trash. Do you refuse to take out the trash because dad didn't tell you himself? No. You take out the trash. And Russ took out the trash.

BrianDavion wrote:

Every civilian on Prospero is no more a follower of Magnus than every civillian on Fenris is a follower of Russ.

Everyone on Fenris IS a follower of Russ

That is not true. Villagers on Fenris talk about the "sky warriors" and how they go fight amongst the stars in the Allfather's name, but most have never even seen a Space Marine let alone the The Fang. They have their own village leaders and fight amongst themselves.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
But then Russ gets told exactly what magnus had been up to and he is well aware of the emperor's orders concerning what was to happen if someone were to do precisely that.

True, but again, it was not Russ place to jump the gun like that. The penalty for murder is the death penalty in some states... that doesn't mean the executioner can round up people accused or convicted of murder and start putting them to death. As far as I know, the Emperor did not give standing orders to Russ to enforce the edict whenever he saw fit.

 Deadshot wrote:
Yes, because Russ is the Wolf King of Fenris. Magnus was the Crimson King or Sorcerer-King. King implies Kingdom. That kingdom was Prospero.

Most people on Fenris have never seen a Space wolf, let alone Russ, or have been anywhere near the fang. Nor do they acknowledge Russ as their leader. I would assume the same is true of Prospero. Regardless, this is a moot point as Russ did not have the authority to enforce the edict anyway.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Murdering a man on death row who has committed horrible crimes is still murder.

But not for the Executioner.

It is if the executioner decides someone should get executed ahead of schedule, or executed in a non-condoned way.

The executioner didn't, his superior did. End of discussion. There isn't an argument to make that Russ decided all on his own that this was how things were going to go.

We don't know what Horus said to Russ. Russ originally planned on arresting Magnus, but Horus stepped in and said SOMETHING to Russ. This caused Russ to change his mind and go to kill Magnus and wipe out his planet. Valdor even spoke up and warned Russ that it wasn't what the Emperor wanted and Russ ignored him. I don't know what more evidence you want that Russ either... A) colluded with Horus to wipe out the Thousand Sons, or B) was tricked by Horus, but privately agreed with Horus so much that he willfully ignored Valdor and all of his better instincts to see the destruction through. Either way that is not a good thing for Russ.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Irrelevant what he said. Chain of command says Horus is in charge and has the authority.

It is completely relevant if Horus didn't order Russ and instead convinced him to disobey the Emperor.

Regardless of whether Horus made a suggestion or ordered, Russ was not disobeying. The consequences for consorting with the Warp were already laid out by the Emperor in public. It'd be like POTUS declaring martial law, saying any brown-skinned person seen after dark will be shot on sight, then throwing a soldier in jail for following that command.

No, if you want to continue with that Crass analogy it would be after dark means "the death penalty" and then having said soldier shoot on sight. The "the death penalty" does not mean whoever happens to think they broke the law can just waltz over and blow them up without a trial, and without the Emperor's judgement. Russ was certainly executioner, but not judge and jury, that was the Emperor's job, and he wanted Magnus on Terra so he could judge him.

 Deadshot wrote:
He did however, manage to convince Russ that the Emperor had changed the order. Which is valid. There was nothing to suggest that Russ had any reason to doubt or disbelieve Horus, and to ignore Horus WOULD be in direct violation of a direct order directly from the Emperor himself. We've been over this many times. Russ was completely right to follow the new orders.

We don't lnow what Horus said to Russ so this is complete speculation.

 Deadshot wrote:
You keep repeating the same allegations against Russ, that he is a traitor, based on arguments that don't hold water.

I never said Russ was a traitor. I said it was one possibility, along with the far more likely possibility that he simply overstepped his authority and that it could have gotten him in a lot of trouble. It is not my problem if you see any criticism of Russ as "he's a traitor".

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Every civilian on Prospero is no more a follower of Magnus than every civillian on Fenris is a follower of Russ.

Everyone on Fenris IS a follower of Russ

That is not true. Villagers on Fenris talk about the "sky warriors" and how they go fight amongst the stars in the Allfather's name, but most have never even seen a Space Marine let alone the The Fang. They have their own village leaders and fight amongst themselves.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
But then Russ gets told exactly what magnus had been up to and he is well aware of the emperor's orders concerning what was to happen if someone were to do precisely that.

True, but again, it was not Russ place to jump the gun like that. The penalty for murder is the death penalty in some states... that doesn't mean the executioner can round up people accused or convicted of murder and start putting them to death. As far as I know, the Emperor did not give standing orders to Russ to enforce the edict whenever he saw fit.

Still follow Russ though.

But if an executioner is given the order to round up and kill some people they can. Which is what happened.

pm713 wrote:
Still follow Russ though.

But if an executioner is given the order to round up and kill some people they can. Which is what happened.

Again, the only order we know for a fact Russ was given was to arrest Magnus.